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Thread: The Discrepancy of Individual Reward Charges.

  1. #1
    Ascendant Gilgad's Avatar
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    Default The Discrepancy of Individual Reward Charges.

    Individual Rewards Charges (IRC) needs to change. Previously in Nightmare Tide, I was able to log into Rift every night/day and play the game without having to worry about how many charges I have before I have to stop. Now I have to see whether I can afford $20 every 3-4 nights for 70 IRC to play with my friends.

    Example? Raid Rifts - Sea of Ladon, you were able to consistently do Raid Rifts non stop with groups and the raid would have two guaranteed essence drops split evenly among the raid.

    Now? I get to do three different Raid Rifts, one of each type per day if they are ran, and not a single person in the entire raid is guaranteed anything. If you would like to continue, you then need to pay to gamble (or pay to play in other words).

    Before I go any further i'd like to state that i've spent my fair share on IRC, being over 200+ on Golems, 100+ on TD's, 100+ on TDnm Minis, 100+ on Raid Rifts, 100+ on Crafting Rifts, 50+ on Hexathel, 50+ on Expert Dungeons.

    There is a huge discrepancy on what Individual Rewards Charges were initially introduced for, to what they actually do for the community now. I spoke with a few reputable people from various places in game and in discord, from both Role playing, casual, raiders alike and one of the glaring facts as to why Individual Rewards Charges were initially introduced, was to:

    A) Remove the "problems" of loot distribution.
    B) Remove the "problems" of content having lockouts.

    In my personal opinion and that of many others, this is a huge discrepancy. The reason loot distribution was potentially an issue to begin with was due to the fact that we had 20 man raids, which were fine tuned usually to a standard, that had to be beat via gaining specific loot to boost stats. Unfortunately not everyone was lucky enough to get loot to drop for their specific classes.

    Now however, we have 10 man raids and 10 man content (Raid Rifts exempt). Raids are not fine tuned to a standard that had to be beat via gaining specific loot to boost stats. Fortunately everyone can buy a full set of raid clear-able gear from the store within 24 hours of hitting level 70.

    Content lockouts. When in Nightmare Tide did Raid Rifts have lockouts? When in Nightmare Tide did Crafting Rifts have lockouts? When in Nightmare Tide did Expert Dungeons have lockouts? If anything, Individual Rewards Charges have done the opposite and have actually created lockouts for the player base.

    Want to do more then 2 Tartaic Depths per week? Pay to gamble/play.
    Want to do more then 1 Golem Run per week? Pay to gamble/play.
    Want to do more then 1 Tartaic Depths NM Mini Bosses per week? Pay to gamble/play.
    Want to do more then 7 Experts per week? Pay to gamble/play.
    Want to do more then 3? Crafting Rifts per week? Pay to gamble/play.
    Want to do more then 3 separate Raid Rifts per day? Pay to gamble/play.
    Want to do more then 1? Hexathel per week? Pay to gamble/play.

    The issue that most people realise is that even though you are able to do a specific amount of things (limited and locked to a specific amount), you are not guaranteed anything by the end of it. Furthermore again, you spend money to play more, you are not guaranteed anything by the end of it.

    So my point still stands, this is actually counter productive and forces lockouts on people, which makes people feel as though they have to pay to play or pay to gamble, which puts a bitter taste in people's mouths, which dwindle's population and makes people on log on to raid and then log off. A vicious cycle on going for months.

    In fact the only content which develops your character from a stat perspective that isn't Pay to Play or Pay to Gamble is either not supported by Trion any longer, or a Weekly Lockout that you can do once.

    Intrepid Rise of the Phoenix. Guaranteed loot for people in the raid. Weekly lockout.
    Normal Mode Tartaic Depths. Guaranteed loot for people in the raid. Weekly lockout.
    PVP - No longer supported by Trion.

    Everything else in the entire game, you have to pay to continue playing. This is just plain wrong. For starters, I paid for the expansion, something I never had to do previously in Nightmare Tide. For second, I am a monthly subscribing patron. Why on earth should I have to pay additionally to progress my character after already paying to play for the expansion and also subscribing to the game?

    Patron's should ignore the Individual Rewards Charge system. Not only will this allow players to repeat content and enjoy it without the worry of if they can afford it, it will bring more players to the game, have a steady subscription base, but also give other players the option of not subscribing and staying on the IRC system.

    Rift shouldn't be about worrying if you can afford to play the game with your mates every night. At least that's not what it used to be. Especially if you've already paid for the expansion and patron.

    Spoiler!

  2. #2
    Rift Chaser SonoMoenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilgad View Post
    Want to do more then 2 Tartaic Depths per week? Pay to gamble/play.
    Want to do more then 1 Golem Run per week? Pay to gamble/play.
    Want to do more then 1 Tartaic Depths NM Mini Bosses per week? Pay to gamble/play.
    Want to do more then 7 Experts per week? Pay to gamble/play.
    Want to do more then 3? Crafting Rifts per week? Pay to gamble/play.
    Want to do more then 3 separate Raid Rifts per day? Pay to gamble/play.
    Want to do more then 1? Hexathel per week? Pay to gamble/play.
    I'll probably just get lots of dramatic reactions, but I'm throwing this out nonetheless.

    Playing the game does not exclusively mean "doing things to get loot".

    Want to do more than 1 Golem Run per week?
    Go in with some PUGs and see if you can solo heal it.
    Go in with your guild and see if the new guy that's trying to catch up gets some gear.
    Go in with your new tank/healie spec to try it out.
    Go in with a Primalist and see if you can live through the double dip on purging.

    I'd also like to mention that Patrons have some bonuses. They get +3 WF charges and +3 Dungeon charges each week. They also get 10 IRC per character logged in each week.

    I'd also like to mention that gear can drop on EVERY loot roll - whether is a free weekly roll, an IRC roll, or just a roll with no charges. Obviously, the chances are much lower than when no charge is used. But I've gotten numerous pieces of gear in TD when I ran with no charges to help guildies out. I also have seen Celestial Motes in CRIFTs, but personally no Matrices.

    I'd also like to mention that doing all the things in Gilgad's list is about 6 hours of play time. Obviously many players spend more than that a week, but with Crafting, Zone Events, Eternal Weapon upgrading, chatting with friends, special events, and raid progression, time starts to fill up. Also, there are Alts.

    I am not saying that Gilgad's points are incorrect and I did not read through all the chat spoilers he linked. I'm just continuing the discussion with a different viewpoint.
    Last edited by SonoMoenia; 07-25-2017 at 10:28 AM.

  3. #3
    Telaran Lelouch Vi Britannia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SonoMoenia View Post
    Want to do more than 1 Golem Run per week?
    Go in with some PUGs and see if you can solo heal it.
    Go in with your guild and see if the new guy that's trying to catch up gets some gear.
    Go in with your new tank/healie spec to try it out.
    Go in with a Primalist and see if you can live through the double dip on purging.

    I'd also like to mention that gear can drop on EVERY loot roll - whether is a free weekly roll, an IRC roll, or just a roll with no charges.
    But I've gotten numerous pieces of gear in TD when I ran with no charges to help guildies out.
    not greatly relevant but what if someone has done all those in your "go in" list?
    there isnt a lot of variation in tank builds and all that now cause of the legendary hits and stuff, you got pretty limited choices.

    on the "gear drop on every roll", gotta agree to disagree,
    Yes, you can get stuffs in crifts without charges, matrixes and the other thingies,
    Yes, you can get actual gear in Experts without charges,
    Nope, you cant get gear in Raids and QF without Charges, only fragments.

  4. #4
    Ascendant
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilgad View Post
    Patron's should ignore the Individual Rewards Charge system. Not only will this allow players to repeat content and enjoy it without the worry of if they can afford it, it will bring more players to the game, have a steady subscription base, but also give other players the option of not subscribing and staying on the IRC system.
    This. Show annoying price tags to your F2P players, but don't show them to patrons. It's not that hard, really.

    This horrible model (annoy everybody, no matter how much they pay) was the main reason why my wife and I canceled our patron last year and left to play a game with a fixed monthly price, and no further price tags anywhere.

  5. #5
    Rift Chaser SonoMoenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lelouch Vi Britannia View Post
    not greatly relevant but what if someone has done all those in your "go in" list?
    I wasn't really making a new list. I was just citing some examples of how playing the game is not just about getting loot.

    In reading Gilgad's Discord chats linked, s/he made a comment:
    Munchmatoast - Today at 2:56 AM
    Who wants to play without reward
    Lol.
    1% of rift
    Lets be real

    That's the part I'm mostly disagreeing with. Sure 99% would like a reward, but 99% don't play only for the reward of loot.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lelouch Vi Britannia View Post
    on the "gear drop on every roll", gotta agree to disagree,
    In TD:NM minis and QF - I don't personally have experience of anyone getting something other than planar fragments. But I think someone got something once on a Golem kill or a TD:LFR run, it was dramatic enough to strike my memory, but I don't remember the details specifically. So I may be confusing dungeon runs, or free roll runs mixed with lots of teasing because they got the Engine I so desperately need. My input was based on my experiences, but of course I can have misinterpreted or misremembered things. I am unaware of any Dev stating "yes a chance, but extremely low" or "no chance at all". If anyone has, that could be cool info for the conversation.

  6. #6
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    Free to play players should get 15 charges and patron cost should be increased to 20 dollars and eliminate IRC completely.

  7. #7
    Rift Chaser Rivkah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilgad View Post

    Everything else in the entire game, you have to pay to continue playing. This is just plain wrong. For starters, I paid for the expansion, something I never had to do previously in Nightmare Tide. For second, I am a monthly subscribing patron. Why on earth should I have to pay additionally to progress my character after already paying to play for the expansion and also subscribing to the game?

    Patron's should ignore the Individual Rewards Charge system. Not only will this allow players to repeat content and enjoy it without the worry of if they can afford it, it will bring more players to the game, have a steady subscription base, but also give other players the option of not subscribing and staying on the IRC system.

    Rift shouldn't be about worrying if you can afford to play the game with your mates every night. At least that's not what it used to be. Especially if you've already paid for the expansion and patron.

    Spoiler!
    I was told by the devs during last year's PAX that they were experimenting with B2P for the expansion in order to cover costs of development and stop nickel and diming people, which was seen as unpopular. I was assured by these conversations that the game would have fewer paywalls in order to get gear or attain BiS stats. Now that literally everything has IRC attached (even freaking RARES!), it's very hard to feel like I wasn't fed a false story right to my face.

    The costs of gambling for gear in this game are just insane. There's no incentive to do content, either, if you lack charges, so I wind up doing less content or very specific content in order to maximize my time efficiency. In NMT I was happy to help others with content I didn't need to do because I knew I could get reliable gear through raiding or DRRs. Now I have to spend all my time grinding plat to afford REXes in order to get more charges so that I can do content again.

    I was also told that individual rewards would be class-specific, yet here I am with an overflowing inventory of planar fragments I had to pay IRC to roll on that are for spellcasters when I'm a warrior, so I guess even that wasn't followed through on, either. If I spend IRC, I should get a planar fragment that is for the class I'm on. It's disappointing to see a t1 frag with high CP only to mouse over it and see "wisdom" or "spell power" on it.

    It's not fun, I don't think most players enjoy it, and it needs to change.

    Addendum: also, in one of those conversations a dev said "Remember that quite a bit more gear drops now than did prior," but I feel like that is a little misleading. Yes, more gear may drop than before, but it's mostly useless preserver gear. The gear that you actually WANT to upgrade and use has an insanely slim chance of dropping. Especially given how rare tenebrean engines are, anything but overlord is a waste. Do you really want to kill the 10 bosses (some with weekly lockouts), use the 2 tenebrean engines and eventually get that overlord piece you're looking for and have to start all over again? Most don't. That's 10 weeks of logging on flushed down the toilet. The crushing rarity of everything has turned getting gear into an unpleasant experience where people feel deeply conflicted on even upgrading it. At least NMT was better in the respect that an upgrade component was guaranteed for the raid each lockout and the gear only needed craftable components to upgrade.

    Also, in regards to the "P2W" discussion from Discord (why do we have to still rely on players relaying info from the special Discord channel btw?), it's a little disingenuous to say that the game isn't at least somewhat P2W. Given that nonpatrons only get 2 charges every week and that 20 bucks gets you 50, that's a vastly different degree of 'chances' for loot that you need in order to become powerful. At this point with the terrible RNG in this game, I would almost PREFER it if it were straight up P2W instead of P2Gamble. At least I know I'll be getting my money's worth. It's a garbage feeling to dump hundreds of dollars worth of credits into IRC only to get zero overlord pieces, fragments you don't need, and preserver pieces you'll just runebreak later. It creates regret in the purchaser and the power incentive makes people feel like they are forced into buying them. You want to make your customers feel good about purchases, not regret and frustration. Right now there's a lot of frustration.

    In fact, that "churn" that was discussed? I'm confused about it because my friends list only has a couple people who regularly log on anymore when it was 20+ during NMT. I'm considering joining the grey names, too because I'm getting fed up being expected to pay and not even necessarily receive anything. I'm too poor to get BiS anymore.
    Last edited by Rivkah; 07-25-2017 at 06:05 PM.

  8. #8
    Plane Walker Poshy's Avatar
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    Comes down to paying for convenience. If your out of charges you could farm plat to buy rex and get more, or you can spend to speed that process up. I really dont mind the system, its not perfect but it is a good balance and keeps supporting the game. Its the same with patron. The charges from patron are really not a huge boost unless you save them up. A week at patron doesnt even cover a golem run or minis. There are non patrons that choose to buy charges instead of patron or farm for rex to buy one or the other. Charges dont take away the effort required to farm the items.

    Just my opinion, I know others strongly disagree.

    Personally my biggest irk is the suffixes. Nothing like having your turn in guild for an upgrade and get hero and watch the next drop be vindicator or overlord.

  9. #9
    Ascendant Linolea's Avatar
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    I think I read enough of the pastebins. The mental contortions to justify IRC as not P2W take the cake. Anything that massively (and yes, they massively decrease time requirements) boosts your advancement to BiS is P2W any way you choose to colour it. Bring it white knights.

    But a little history ... it used to be, you will never be able to buy BiS for advancement. That has now morphed into we won't sell anything that gets you BiS faster that you can't get in game through free rolls. Never mind that you get only 2 IRC as a non-paying peasant and minimal free rols.

    I understand that the Devs feel compelled to defend the IRC system because it is clearly a massive money spinner for Rift. Hence the mental contorotions you see. I felt quite repulsed by some of the apparently disingenuous arguments that were made. The smoke and mirrors cannot detract from the basic fact:

    Paying for large dollops of IRC WILL advance your character more quickly than people who do not spend such money on the game. End.of.story.

    One cannot argue that point without looking incredibly dim or disingenuous... pick one. Now how to improve the situation? Assuming Trion is not dead set on simply squeezing as much moolah out of every player they can while providing minimal content, they could:

    1) Make patron IRC-free as suggested by Munch.
    2) Massively increase the free IRC to patron (50 per month? 15-20 per week?).
    3) I am sure there are other suggestions people can come up with.

    ATM patron looks vastly inferior to spending equivalent credits on IRC, if gear advancement is your game. I have maintained patron for a couple years or so through REX purchases, but I am seriously starting to wonder why. The daily gifts, mount speed, supposed better rolls on garbage chests etc all seem pretty worthless now. 10 IRC instead of 2? So I get a whoel 8 extra IRC... whoop.

    Another point the devs argue is that rapid completion of gear sets leads to player churn. Why then does Trion sell IRC to aid said rapid completion, which they claim leads to player churn? Riddle me that.

    To Munch - I can envisage no way that Trion will remove IRC requirements for patrons. The fact that you spent so much on IRC shows exactly why they won't.

    BTW I strongly believe Trion's actions betray a mentality that they will continue to turn up the dial on P2W. I made the frog in the warming water analogy a year or more ago, and that has proven incredibly accurate to date. On this trajectory you will likely be seeing BiS gear behind a paywall at some stage. It is the logical progression. They flirted with it with earrings in NT. It'll be back.

    PS> While this post will be interpretted by some as negative, I'm sorry, but the system is entirely of Trion's making. My impressions of that system are my own, and feel free to disagree. If people insist that the IRC are not a variant of P2W, that's fine, but I reserve the right to laugh at you at length.

    *EDIT* To me IRC feels like a cancer infiltrating all aspects of the game ... the named rares in VP? Really? They are like the Unstable Cache Anomalies of NMT LOL. A some quipped... soon it will be IRC to login/logout, switch chars, switch shards, chat in Xevents. At what point has it crossed a line? Clearly to those happy and able to spend heaps on IRC, the system plays to their strength (wallet), and they will supporet it to the max. I could readily spend hundreds on it, but I find the system toxic and refuse to. Sooner or later you have to stand on principle.
    Last edited by Linolea; 07-25-2017 at 09:31 PM.
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    Rift Chaser Rivkah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Linolea View Post
    1) Make patron IRC-free as suggested by Munch.
    2) Massively increase the free IRC to patron (50 per month? 15-20 per week?).
    3) I am sure there are other suggestions people can come up with..
    4. Massively reduce the crappy RNG in the game. Do away with the five-suffix gear (a stated goal of planar fragments was to reduce the need for tanks to carry multiple sets of gear. What happened to that? Tanks have to carry preserver and overlord now, so what changed? Nothing!)
    5. Guarantee that the drops you get will be for your class (no more spellcaster stuff if you're a warrior)
    6. Guarantee a tenebrean engine after <x> number of IRC used. Nothing's less fun than having tons of gear that you cannot upgrade due to bad RNG, and it will encourage people to keep buying IRC.

    I'm sure I'll think of more suggestions.

    Also, I don't believe the statement that "faster gear completion leads to higher churn" for one second. I had a full and active friends list even towards the end of NMT. People like showing off their sick DPS or mad heals in their extra-shiny gear. Now that the only person who can get full BiS gear is Bill Gates, my friends list has only peaked at 5 people at any given time.

  11. #11
    Telaran
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    Very good suggestions and posts here.

    And yeah, i absolutely can not understand why the suffix-gear was introduced.
    The RNG ingame was never so bad as it is now, with fragments and that gear... (altough i was relatively lucky until now)

    On a side note, i like the individual rewards for the raid rifts.

  12. #12
    Ascendant Linolea's Avatar
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    My interpretation of the suffix gear is simple. There is a lack of content and Trion was looking for a way to "encourage" people to keep repeating the small amount of content (compared to previous expansions). The end.
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  13. #13
    Telaran Lelouch Vi Britannia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Linolea View Post
    My interpretation of the suffix gear is simple. There is a lack of content and Trion was looking for a way to "encourage" people to keep repeating the small amount of content (compared to previous expansions). The end.

    I just love how we were told 4.0+ and fragments were to remove the need for having different sets of gear in your bags, which funnily led to having to have more than 1 frag set in itself, which requires paying for new slots and all that.
    That aside, the way they introduced suffix gear and justify it like "the stat difference isnt that huge you can just pick whatever you get and be fine with it"
    Or "but when you get that piece of gear you've been looking for you'll feel nice!" And all those contradicting stuff

  14. #14
    Telaran
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    I like Keyens example with the bell because it works fine for the game he plays where even the left side of the bell can supply the right side via Titanforging.

    For Rift the example is also good as long as you look on your paper and ignore all other factors.
    Introducing the affixes the player found himself forcefully put nearly to the edge of the right side of the bell due to a few factors.

    First and biggest factor is the lack of upgrade components. Most players are happy if they get enough engines by the time they have an item for each slot so why should I waste engines on weak affixes for my role before I reach this point of engine saturation?

    Second factor would be setboni: You could give me the whole T1 set Hero gear (excluding weapon) compared to upgraded LFR gear and I will still lose dps due no setboni.

    Third factor itemlv (stat difference): For non tanks the stats between upgraded LFR and T1 Hero are insignificant and a lot of the pieces have a 10 week minimum waiting time before you can upgrade them and before that they are no real upgrade and the drop is perceived as at the left side of the bell.

    For new players the bell works fine but for the players who stayed after your beta live test since November and playing your content each week the bell is kinda flawed due to your itemization and lovely rng.

    It was definitively not satisfying to go into IRotP the week it opened and no one really wanting the loot because of named factors.

  15. #15
    Rift Chaser Rivkah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Linolea View Post
    My interpretation of the suffix gear is simple. There is a lack of content and Trion was looking for a way to "encourage" people to keep repeating the small amount of content (compared to previous expansions). The end.
    I suspect that may be the case as well. It's a way of artificially prolonging the lifespan of the new content.

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