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  Click here to go to the first Rift Team post in this thread.   Thread: Is PvP really that important?

  1. #1
    Ascendant Artewig's Avatar
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    Default Is PvP really that important?

    According to Brasse, PvP is an important part of Rift for some of the community, including Brasse. To be completely honest, I don't see it...

    Quote Originally Posted by TrionBrasse View Post
    PvP is an important part of gameplay for a part of our RIFT population, including me. It's fun, challenging and best when you are on a team that has taken the time to learn the maps.

    RIFT is not a PvP-centric game: that is true and a simple fact. Otherwise we'd have PvP in most zones, as ArcheAge and many other games do.
    If it truly was an important part of Rift for Trion, why would you say that it isn't worth more development time?
    Quote Originally Posted by TrionBrasse View Post
    This is not a PvP-centric game. the proportion of RIFT players who delve into PvP in RIFT was never very high. It makes no sense to invest more time in something that a very small percentage of the population will ever use.
    We recognize that those who feel that a specific aspect of a game is missing will migrate to games that offer it. That is fair and expected.
    Your PvP players are not happy and all you can say is to go try ArcheAge? Basically these posts say that you think PvP in Rift is fine and isn't worth more development time yet the majority of the pvp players think it is far from fine.

    How does this come across? "I think PvP in Rift is fine and if you don't like it, you can go play another game."

    Your customers deserve better.
    Last edited by Artewig; 07-06-2017 at 09:29 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by TrionBrasse
    We are absolutely a service industry and you're only as good as your last contact with the customer.

  2. #2
    Ascendant Laeti's Avatar
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    Rift isn't (and honestly never was?) a PVP centric game, that's true and fair.
    That does not mean PVP is less important than any other part of the game.
    I'll never stop saying that one of the reasons Rift was always such a great game is that it does have something for everyone. Now with the recent tendency to go for simplified content instead of giving some good challenge to those who enjoy it, this may no longer be the case (but I still hope that's going to change at some point).

    As far as the population goes, apart from the general population changes, PVP was much more populated before it received a number of changes, and those changes certainly didn't look like anything that could help or benefit the population. Death of owpvp (instead of re-working it with the suggestions and other games' experience in mind), "patron improvements", removal of CQ, and that's not to mention gear unification all resulted in population decline within the PVP community. Currently the balance issues are adding to that, making it even worse.

    So, is it really about PVP community just being so small that there's no point in working on improvements, or the community has shrunk because of being neglected and ignored for such a long time?

    Rift may not be, and may not ever become, a PVP centric game - that's true; but that doesn't and definitely shouldn't mean that this particular activity and the community it still has is any less important than any other.


    P.S. I wouldn't go play Archeage if it had the best pvp ever, instead I'll just take interactive ships in Rift tyvm
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  3. #3
    Plane Walker
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    Aye with the current state of the pve I think even the pvp player base would bring more money in. PvP is harder then PvE at the current state you can do all Pve with 1 hand and you don't even need gear??

    Just something like some unique gear or weapons, an actual balance patch??? Something to spend gems on??
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    Soulwalker Dudelol's Avatar
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    If this was never a "pvp-centric" game then why the heck did it launch with 2 opposing factions at war with one another? Whats up with that first cinematic that had the two defiants trying to kill a guardian before he opened a rift? Why did I have to roll an alt on shatter bone because the other pvp server I played on was always on q months after launch?

    I know not all of us have been around since the beginning but there sure is a difference between "never" and "no longer supported" the way i see it.

    Maybe if just all boils down to following someone else's blueprints I guess...

  5. #5
    Plane Walker
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dudelol View Post
    If this was never a "pvp-centric" game then why the heck did it launch with 2 opposing factions at war with one another? Whats up with that first cinematic that had the two defiants trying to kill a guardian before he opened a rift? Why did I have to roll an alt on shatter bone because the other pvp server I played on was always on q months after launch?

    I know not all of us have been around since the beginning but there sure is a difference between "never" and "no longer supported" the way i see it.

    Maybe if just all boils down to following someone else's blueprints I guess...

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    Rift Master Uruketo's Avatar
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    At launch, I would say Rift was 50/50 PvE & PvP. You not only faced open world PvP on any shard just to get to your quest NPCs but also against challenging zone invasions. It took a lot of community teamwork to make progress. Anyone who remembers, “If you are red you are dead,” will recall how much of a challenge open world PvP was. I miss the city invasions; both invading and defending. There was a lot more thought put into PvP in the beginning with its own soul tree, quest lines, etc. Now it is more of an afterthought.

    I do understand the business decision behind alienating the PvP community though. Anything put in game that PvPers would want to spend real money on would be considered unbalancing and Pay to Win. That does not go over with the spirit of PvP which should be more about time and skill. Since there is not much of a prospect of financial gain from that segment of the population, choices were made to make the game far more PvE centric which essentially showed the hardcore PvP community the door. Having been RR100 for many years it was disheartening to see, but like some I changed my playstyle to spend more time in PvE. I only wish the many friends I lost to the development changes were still around to play with. I used to look forward to challenging particular people or groups in PvP. Now it is just a tool for farming currencies or appearance items.
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  7.   Click here to go to the next Rift Team post in this thread.   #7
    Director of Community Relations TrionBrasse's Avatar
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    Business decisions revolve around where the majority of the player base wants to spend their time. If RIFT had become a joyful haven for PvP folks, then we'd probably have a PvP-centric game here.

    The way any MMOG evolves is an organic process, and takes place over several years. We've seen games that try to MAKE people adhere to a new gameplay style that was thought by those directing the move would make a game better - those who do not enjoy the content/playstyle leave. If Dev made the wrong decision, they leave in droves. If it was a really bad decision, the game shuts down.

    Dev is therefore always going to follow the path that makes the largest number of players happy, and even that is a daunting task. Many people get through content way faster than the casual crowd, and for them, my usual suggestion is to do as I do: play games on rotation. RIFT is one of my four MMOGs, for instance, along with ArcheAge (for the PvP) and two others that Trion does not make.

    Do what makes you happy.
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    Rift Chaser Letobrick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Laeti View Post
    So, is it really about PVP community just being so small that there's no point in working on improvements, or the community has shrunk because of being neglected and ignored for such a long time?
    This is the overall vibe I'm getting as well. I would say the latter came first and then the former; however as mentioned, PVP was never the priority in Rift.

    I think what players are getting frustrated about is the contradicting statements being provided. One day it's "PVP in Rift is important, no really" and then it's "If you want to PVP there are other games out there for it". I believe we really need a firm statement/vision on the future of PVP in Rift and what the intention for it is moving forward. And it needs to come from someone with the detailed knowledge on the matter who can give it to us straight, good or bad. Or at the very least, from upper management.

    The last pvp livestream gave us perhaps the best glimpse of that vision. That the focus was migrating further away from the hardcore PVP audience and instead, focusing on those who were just playing casually. Is that true? Again, a firm statement is really what we need here.

  9. #9
    Rift Chaser Rivkah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TrionBrasse View Post

    Dev is therefore always going to follow the path that makes the largest number of players happy
    Brasse
    I'm a little confused why planar fragments were implemented, then. It seemed like 95% of the playerbase hates them, yet they got shoved in anyway. Most of the playerbase doesn't like the insane RNG and rarity of tenebrean engines and BIS gear either, and gating stuff behind IR charges, yet here we are.

    Also, the PvP community became upset and mostly left when the PvP forums got increasingly ignored and dismissed by the dev team. There's a saying "build it and they will come," but development hasn't been building anything specifically for PvPers. It makes sense then that they would get frustrated over that and leave. People also dislike feeling ignored, which is what the dev team has done to PvPers for the past year or more. Of course at this point the PvP community is in a decided minority, but that's because dev decisions did everything in their power to alienate them and make them feel unwanted.

  10.   Click here to go to the next Rift Team post in this thread.   #10
    Director of Community Relations TrionBrasse's Avatar
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    Well, let's see how the Planar Fragments evolve after 4.2 - as you know, we've talked about adjusting the system. We don't have any information to share on it yet, because all hands are on Celestial Storm right now. =)

  11. #11
    Rift Chaser Rivkah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TrionBrasse View Post
    Well, let's see how the Planar Fragments evolve after 4.2 - as you know, we've talked about adjusting the system. We don't have any information to share on it yet, because all hands are on Celestial Storm right now. =)
    I'm glad they are finally being looked at, but most players spoke out against them prior to this expac's release. We were basically ignored and a wildly unpopular feature got forced on us for well over half a year anyway. If development is for things that most players enjoy, it doesn't explain the ignoring of feedback for so long and the implementation of it in the first place.

    I'm also very disappointed that the PvP community is being treated like this. If development time and resources were used on new warfronts or new open-world pvp activities or events instead of RNG systems that people hate, maybe there would be a community large enough to treat with respect. I lost all the people I started out playing this game with due to the neglect shown towards PvP. I wish they were still around.
    Last edited by Rivkah; 07-06-2017 at 02:35 PM.

  12. #12
    Rift Chaser Letobrick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TrionBrasse View Post
    Do what makes you happy.
    Devs on any one game can never, ever make every player happy.
    Brasse
    The statement "do what(ever) makes you happy", ultimately sounds self-defeating . No one would ever expect the development team to make everyone happy.But Rift PVP won't improve unless some plan or vision or at least a serious discussion for it is made. Not asking for the moon, but just communication on what is going on.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rivkah View Post
    I'm glad they are finally being looked at, but most players spoke out against them prior to this expac's release. We were basically ignored and a wildly unpopular feature got forced on us for well over half a year anyway. If development is for things that most players enjoy, it doesn't explain the ignoring of feedback for so long and the implementation of it in the first place.


    some pvp stuff
    So much this!

    It's not like it was a surprise as to how much players would hate this. I think it was pretty clearly communicated when it was on the PTS. Yes, a few things were adjusted but those really only made this system marginally less terrible.

    I'm rather baffled why something that was known as a "feature players would absolutely despise" is now "under review at some point in the future" 8 months after the expansion was released. This is the sort of thing that should have been adjusted during testing when a large majority of those that commented on the system told you guys how much it sucks.

    summary:
    Too little, too late.

  14. #14
    Ascendant Laeti's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TrionBrasse View Post
    Dev is therefore always going to follow the path that makes the largest number of players happy, and even that is a daunting task.

    <>

    Do what makes you happy.
    Devs on any one game can never, ever make every player happy.
    Brasse
    I think the thing that's frustating people the most is that Rift used to be that one game that would make most of its playerbase somewhat happy, instead of simply catering to one community and neglecting the others because they're smaller or less vocal. All the communities were active, considered, and generally happy with the game, even though obviously not every change would be received well, but that's fair for any game.

    To anyone who's been around long enough it's obvious that PVP community was always active, vocal and populated - maybe not as populated as the casual crowd, but still. And it's gotten smaller and unhappier with every single decision made towards taking something away from the whole part of the game that wasn't hurting anyone, especially when those changes were made instead of actually trying to work out a solution. Those left to try and enjoy pvp are now unhappy because they're being ignored on all fronts, and told to go and play something else, when really what they want to do is stay and play Rift, with its pvp, pve and whatnot. PVP in Rift is in such a poor state not because it wasn't the game's focus to begin with but because people leave after bad decisions that hurt their community and their experience, just like you said. And right now, it's either about getting rid of it all together (and drive the rest of the community away to other games), or finally turn back to them and try to work out something that could make them a little bit less frustrated. There's been numerous suggestions in the past and I even remember suggesting some of the owpvp ideas to Archonix back when I was in Discord and him saying he'd play a game like that. Now instead of seeing some positive changes in this part of the game we're hearing rumors about a challenge server that honestly doesn't seem like a good idea for so many reasons.

    It's unrealistic to make everyone 100% happy - there's no arguing that. But simply trying to make the whole community a bit happier instead of just a part of it isn't really too much to ask, and I'm saying that as an active dimensioneer - one of those who, technically, have zero reasons to be unhappy right now.
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  15. #15
    Rift Chaser Rivkah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leocadia View Post

    I'm rather baffled why something that was known as a "feature players would absolutely despise" is now "under review at some point in the future" 8 months after the expansion was released. This is the sort of thing that should have been adjusted during testing when a large majority of those that commented on the system told you guys how much it sucks.

    summary:
    Too little, too late.
    On another note, it is also no secret that most players despise the RNG lockboxes for mounts and fragments, so what happens within the past month? A special sale on all lockboxes (that most players hate)! After the expected backlash occurred, Trion requested feedback, which we the players provided in spades. A full month goes by with no further official interaction with the thread, then they release another lockbox, with exactly zero of the suggested changes implemented.

    Meanwhile, eternal weapons interacting strangely when mentoring was brought up within the past month and a hotfix was in for it within two days. It was largely deemed a nothingburger by most of the playerbase, yet dev time was used to "fix" it within the week.

    I guess it would be helpful to know: what kind of players do you have to be in order to be seen and listened to, or counted as one of the "most players"?

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