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  Click here to go to the first Rift Team post in this thread.   Thread: Is Balancing Done? or whats happening Rift Crew?

  1. #16
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    While the ballancing is always an ongoing and neverending process, it's starting to show more and more the lack of resources at Trion to tackle this and other issues in a reasonable timeframe. I would say that for one person ballancing all the classes/souls would be a tough job already in NMT let alone now, especially with all the other assignments to boot.

    We just had a half a year long ballancing work done not so long ago, and what did it actually solve? I don't think we're much further along than we were at the start of expansion, ballancing wise. Of course some of the bugs and issues have been resolved along with the changes, so it wasn't just that alone. And ballancing "all" calsses/specs in a specific setting, with rather small itemization pool was guaranteed to blow up sooner or later.

    Why i said earlier that i think that ballancing classes/souls in this expansion is way more effort than it was in NMT is because of this four aditional factors that werent very prominent before or didn't even exist:
    • Legendary Abilities: this new addition adds more complexity to the soul system and also tends to pigeonhole specs into specific builds. That can be good for making it easier to ballance in the future, but on the other hand it can make some specs or variations of it completely obsolete and thus reducing the pool of viable specs. And some specs can benefit from a certain Legendary way way more than for example others inside the same class, so playing wackamole here can be tricker now.
    • Eternal Weapons: this to me is one of the biggest reasons for the ammount of obsolete souls in this expansion. The proc on the weapons is either very powerful or it doesn't work on specs at all. All the specs/souls that can not utilize the Eternal Weapon are now pretty much dead. This in turn makes ballancing both the specs that do well with the weapon and those without a lot more work than it used to becuase it may need bigger overhauls which take more time. And if not careful some souls could utilize the changes to make them even stronger with the combination of Eternal Weapon.
    • Itemizaion: this i would say is another big reason why ballancing is all over the place and the reason why previous half a year ballancing project didn't surmount to much. Under itemization i count the Planar Fragment system and all the gear from the expansion with its upgrades. Yes, technically Eternal Weapon would fall under this section as well but i rather split them up. Compared to NMT for example and even SL, the sheer gain in stats from one upgrade to another has gone way overboard this time. While CP is taken mostly out of the gear items by the fragment system, Crit Chance is still tied to the main and secondary stats. We never had so high crit chance in our specs, let alone in T1. Some specs can already reach the soft caps for it. Stat jumps are simply too big and if not taken properly into account when making the ballancing changes they will quickly skew the reults of them. And the whole Fragment system isn't helping either, because before it was a clear path with fixed upgraes and you knew when you would reach CP caps and stayed there, now it is much more varied of how much CP players have.
    • Content Design: the whole philosophy of content difficulty and it's desing has changed a lot as well compared to previous expansions. The bar has been set very low at the start and will stay relatively low in the end, especially if comparing with the previous expansions and it's dungeons/raids. This along with the soul changes creates new problems that didn't exist before. For example like others have mentioned there's no more use for ST healers. The damage on tank simply isn't high enough for them to be viable and there would need to be more changes done to the damage output of mobs/bosses and healing values of ST/AoE healers to change that (and maybe even armor/resist values which have skyrocketed too sinc ethey weren't adjusted). At the moment AoE healing is simply so strong that having a ST healer is just a waste of a slot. Another issue is the type A and B supports, where no content we have has any use for the type B support, apart from having it's hybrids.

    Luckily though the Itemization part of my list will relatively soon be filled up and should stay pretty static when players finally reach the CP/Crit soft caps. It will still have an affect but it will be smaller than what we have now. That is of course if nothing new comes along to change this. And we'll just have to wait and see what the Fragment system changes will bring us as well.

    On the other hand, some of the things are connected, like soul ballancing and content design. We still haven't had a tank and healing ballancing pass, even though it was said to come after the dps one. If those two aren't working well together you're just runing in circles where you can't make many changes as the content will become too easy/hard and at the same time content can't be designed differently for the same reason if the classes and their souls can't hande lit or they just sweep through it.

    I guess the best we can hope is that with some tuning of souls things will get closer (for a while at least) with some souls beeing dropped down a peg while others buffed up. But i don't expect to see many more viable souls/specs comming back up from the grave since that would take a lot more work and effort (Legendary skills, Eternal Weapon, itemization itself) and that means more resources devoted to it which i just don't see happening. From what i can tell Trion seems content with how things are.
    Last edited by Jotunn; 06-19-2017 at 01:27 AM. Reason: Forgot to add about content design.

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilgad View Post
    Problem is clerics and mages normally aren't the top dps, so in turn they should be the best healers/support - which was the case in NMT.

    Clerics - Purifier BiS Tank healer
    Clerics - Defiler, always needed one for a raid for links etc, now it's non-existent.
    Clerics - Oracle for a long time was preferred over bard as it did more dps, and more shielding.

    Mage - Chloromancer, BiS raid healer for NMT during HK (Padding on adds OP). Did damage, brought living energy, brought wild growth, very good spec.

    Mage - Harbchon, BiS Support, amazing DPS while bringing all archon/bm buffs required for an average raid.


    Currently:

    Tank healing doesn't exist, so RiP Puri, but even if it did - Preserver is BiS tank healer.
    Defiler & links don't exist anymore either so rip Defiler.
    Bard got buffed really really really really hard, zero incentive to bring an oracle now so rip Oracle.

    Chloromancer lost Wild Growth. Living Energy is no longer needed as a standard thing in raids anymore. Doesn't provide mitigation and top HPS/APS, so rip Chloro.

    Harbchon got nuked, however 61 Archon is still BiS support, being 350k-400k DPS. However Mystic will be the new BiS support.

    So as it stands cleric is in rip mode, mage is almost in rip mode, rogues have the best heals (bout to get nerfed), rogues have the best dps, rogues have the best support, warriors *will* have the best heals, primalist *will* have the best support & dps & tank (lol prima tank will be SOOOOOO broken in 4.2) mage is just going to be in rip zone along with cleric.

    /10chars

  3. #18
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    Default What Balance?

    Part of the reason I stopped playing Rift was my main - a cleric- was nerfed to oblivion. My next favorite alt- a mage- not much better. The planar fragments- expensive plat sink for CP which comes along with so many useless abilities that I had to delete most of them. The balance that existed in vanilla was a delight. It made the game much better than WoW in that it truly let you mix and match talent trees and have some ability behind those builds. Then the buffs and nerfs started in SL and kept going unfettered until now the only specs worth having are Primalist and Rogue. Sorry- I am a magic user and team player at heart. I like tanking, healing tanks, and I like support specs and I like challenging content. There is more to life than dps.

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by MakeClericsGreatAgain View Post
    First ill go over what's completely obvious to any rift player right now that understands the game or has been around to know at least a little bit about most classes.
    ====> Blatantly obvious how strong rogues (worst offenders), warriors and primalists are compared to Mages and Clerics.

    From seeing and playing with high end players that do 800k-1.2 mil + on IRotp bosses you can generally get the idea of where balancing sits right now. Rogues especially are an iwin rift kind of class right now- where the more of them you have in your raids the better your chances are because they are about 25% stronger and better at what they do when it comes to dps (I wont go into healing because that's getting abit of a nerf so we will have to see) We can call this Rift- Rogue edition because ALOT have rerolled into rogue due to how easy and rewarding it is.

    So I just would like to ask the dev team or what the thoughts are on Balancing, is it finished? Are you honestly happy with how things are or calling it good enough and off to lunch? Mages and Clerics are quite a big chunk behind the other classes- they have to work 3 times as hard and have gear and stats two to three times better just to stay competitive. Rogues are pretty much THE easiest things to play right now with a spray of numbers for no work what soever that will keep you on the top of the DPS meters --- and no It wont make any difference if the mages or clerics in your raid have 2-3 times better gear /fragments than you... they just cant keep up even with flawless rotations on their best souls.

    Why is there such a big difference or a gap... Competition is a fun and big part of raiding for a lot of people but its really sad to see top 3 classes injected with steroids while you hobble the bottom two so they cant keep up no matter how good they are or how well geared.

    Having the best of the best on any Irotp boss fights you will see breakdowns like this -> Rogues / Warriors 1.1mil-1.2 mil . Prima's 900-1.1m (rarely goes to 1.2+) Meanwhile Clerics - at about 750-800. Mages about 750-800 (can be slightly higher with Blademark target- which is mostly fluff cleave dmg that doesn't last long)
    Keep in mind that few rogues do 1 mil in irotp...and maybe those own full 15 relic fragments...which is notsomething you find everywhere...i can pull 900 -950 on fire bosses...600 on gen silgen and i do good with et wep...

    I can t imagine a rogue doing 1.2 mil SUSTAINED DPS ...not peak dps...on gen. silgen and in melee... ahahahah... i want to meet him here on forum..

    So don t troll the ideea that every rogue now does 1 mil damage in IROTP ...ahahahahah...
    I can t stop laughing...

    TRION nerf rogues please...and warriors please...mages are melee dpsers...what s next? let clerics live and be best dps in irotp...that s the next step... We need nerfing....yeah...nerf nerf...ahahahaha

    You know what ....i don t like the idea of buying REX for 100 euro...sell them for ingame plat...upgrade fragments then trion come and nerf that toon...
    What would you think about that ?

    YOU ALSO FORGOT THERE S A HUGE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN ROGUES AND THE REST OF CLASSES...rogues do that dps melee...not range...best range class MM maybe ...maybe does 550 -600 k...also on very good geared rogues...which is far from 1.2 mil u mentioned...Really 1.2 mil...i ve never seen one doing that high dps in european servers...

    Your post is just innacurate...and eternal buff for rogues does only GOD knows what and how it works now...i can t understand how...

    I farmed maybe 150+ hours of continous gameplay for the eternal wep ... and when i got it ...i find eternal buff is bugged and it s going to stay that way...

    Now...what should i do ? Play cleric and start eternal wep quest again because some people are asking publisher to nerf a class with eternal buff bugged because maybe 10% of rogue population are able to raid in IROTP and maybe 1 or 2 or 3 or... 10 are able to pul 1 mil dps on a boss?

    NO WAY... i give up...don t forget to nerf primalist...range dps...

    Watch me leaving <- Archage...there trion does good job...

    I hope they won t think again it s an infraction for speaking my mind...

    Cheers
    Last edited by Amael37; 06-19-2017 at 12:45 PM.

  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hectyr View Post
    So class balance should be a top priority in a game of this sort as it applies to both raiders, pvpers, and the types who enjoy all/most activities.
    Amael37 - Thats why balance is so important. Without it one-button-elementalist, Tempest or vorpal-primalists are the top DD-classes not rogues. I cant do 900-950 in IROTP like you because i am a cleric. Perhaps i could reach your damage with a 4.0. shaman but my class got balanced with 4.1.
    Last edited by Sing; 06-19-2017 at 02:36 PM.

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amael37 View Post
    Keep in mind that few rogues do 1 mil in irotp...and maybe those own full 15 relic fragments...which is notsomething you find everywhere...i can pull 900 -950 on fire bosses...600 on gen silgen and i do good with et wep...

    I can t imagine a rogue doing 1.2 mil SUSTAINED DPS ...not peak dps...on gen. silgen and in melee... ahahahah... i want to meet him here on forum..

    So don t troll the ideea that every rogue now does 1 mil damage in IROTP ...ahahahahah...
    I can t stop laughing...

    TRION nerf rogues please...and warriors please...mages are melee dpsers...what s next? let clerics live and be best dps in irotp...that s the next step... We need nerfing....yeah...nerf nerf...ahahahaha

    You know what ....i don t like the idea of buying REX for 100 euro...sell them for ingame plat...upgrade fragments then trion come and nerf that toon...
    What would you think about that ?

    YOU ALSO FORGOT THERE S A HUGE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN ROGUES AND THE REST OF CLASSES...rogues do that dps melee...not range...best range class MM maybe ...maybe does 550 -600 k...also on very good geared rogues...which is far from 1.2 mil u mentioned...Really 1.2 mil...i ve never seen one doing that high dps in european servers...

    Your post is just innacurate...and eternal buff for rogues does only GOD knows what and how it works now...i can t understand how...

    I farmed maybe 150+ hours of continous gameplay for the eternal wep ... and when i got it ...i find eternal buff is bugged and it s going to stay that way...

    Now...what should i do ? Play cleric and start eternal wep quest again because some people are asking publisher to nerf a class with eternal buff bugged because maybe 10% of rogue population are able to raid in IROTP and maybe 1 or 2 or 3 or... 10 are able to pul 1 mil dps on a boss?

    NO WAY... i give up...don t forget to nerf primalist...range dps...

    Watch me leaving <- Archage...there trion does good job...

    I hope they won t think again it s an infraction for speaking my mind...

    Cheers
    Did you even read the post you quoted. Nowhere in that post does it say "every rogue now does 1 mil". Phrases like "best of the best" and "high end players" do not at all equate to "every rogue"
    R.I.P.

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Artewig View Post
    Did you even read the post you quoted. Nowhere in that post does it say "every rogue now does 1 mil". Phrases like "best of the best" and "high end players" do not at all equate to "every rogue"
    As the undisputed best of the best (cleric), I approve of this message.
    Last edited by Jkay; 06-19-2017 at 06:32 PM.

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilgad View Post
    Problem is clerics and mages normally aren't the top dps, so in turn they should be the best healers/support - which was the case in NMT.

    Clerics - Purifier BiS Tank healer
    Clerics - Defiler, always needed one for a raid for links etc, now it's non-existent.
    Clerics - Oracle for a long time was preferred over bard as it did more dps, and more shielding.

    Mage - Chloromancer, BiS raid healer for NMT during HK (Padding on adds OP). Did damage, brought living energy, brought wild growth, very good spec.

    Mage - Harbchon, BiS Support, amazing DPS while bringing all archon/bm buffs required for an average raid.


    Currently:

    Tank healing doesn't exist, so RiP Puri, but even if it did - Preserver is BiS tank healer.
    Defiler & links don't exist anymore either so rip Defiler.
    Bard got buffed really really really really hard, zero incentive to bring an oracle now so rip Oracle.

    Chloromancer lost Wild Growth. Living Energy is no longer needed as a standard thing in raids anymore. Doesn't provide mitigation and top HPS/APS, so rip Chloro.

    Harbchon got nuked, however 61 Archon is still BiS support, being 350k-400k DPS. However Mystic will be the new BiS support.

    So as it stands cleric is in rip mode, mage is almost in rip mode, rogues have the best heals (bout to get nerfed), rogues have the best dps, rogues have the best support, warriors *will* have the best heals, primalist *will* have the best support & dps & tank (lol prima tank will be SOOOOOO broken in 4.2) mage is just going to be in rip zone along with cleric.
    I top FK and a Top Preserver. Ill take the FK 100 out of 100 times. Preserver isn't even close to the best tanker healer. I'd say they are 3rd. And 3 by a mile.

    They aren't bad. But the best? I'd say no.

    But I see you play a Primalist so there no favoritism going I'd say:P

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Linolea View Post
    What sort of range are people asking for? And are we talking ST or cleave, which is not important in many fights? Are we comparing melee and ranged specs? Cleric melee is pulling good numbers as far as I have seen (I am no expert by any stretch of the imagination).

    Bear in mind also that the 10% band they were allegedly aiming for becomes a bigger band as DPS rises. Plus or minus 10% is 200k DPS if you are at 1MDPS, or 100k DPS if you take it to mean the entire range of damage.

    Part of the reason rogues have been doing well is that the IRotP fights are melee friendly. Drop us to range and see how well we go ...

    TL: DNR Balancing is hard, no really. It is like the word "fair" in economics. There is no fair in economics, only the weather is fair. (Prof M Rieber circa 1989, and before, no doubt).

    PS> I am sure the bard and NB nerfs are coming very soon, at which point people will want rogues for? Given how the nerfs tend to swing way too hard every time.
    Sadly Trion never nerfs a little. Rogue will go from 1.2m to 500K. Then they sit dying for months after.

    It's what Trion has always done. And I've been here since day one.

    Never understood it either. They have the perfect vehicle for helping or hurts build.

    For every point in you Tree you get 1% damage. For a DPS toon.

    So 61%.

    Not going enough make is 1.1% and so what happens.

    To high make is .9%

    Raise and lower the number a tiny bit at a time.

    But they wouldn't. It will be 61% let's say to zero. Then they'll looked shock when everyone stops playing X class.

    Then Trion will leave it for dead crowning a new DPS build letting it do 25%+ more than everyone else for months or end or a whole Xpac.

    Sad because it shouldn't be the hard with a simple change to points in the tree.

  10. #25
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    Yes, i read this in the mage-forum:

    Quote Originally Posted by Xethx View Post
    Stormcaller, 1mil+ on 8 targets
    Necro 500k+ on 5 adds, 300k+ ST even in it's buggy as **** state. (if yer willing to respec constantly)
    Pyro and Harb 500k+ ST
    Warlock 400k+ ST, 550k+ Dual Targets
    Ele 350K+
    Hell, even Dom can be made to break 250k ST; though I haven't tested with recent changes to IC.
    I dont play mage but i was wondering that they nerf the elemental from top-dps to 350k. From a few of an outside to this class it seems a litte to much.

  11. #26
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    The main reason I see no balance anytime soon was the exhibit A... rangers legendary early in 4.0 was actually nerfed to be worse than the normal ability. Stuff like that instills a lot of doubt in my mind ... I don't think I am being overly harsh in this assessment /shrug Hopefully Trion is done with the sledgehammer adjustments for now (until the new primalist souls come out LOLP2WMystic). To clarify ... do people even wonder why people are offering credit services to buy primalist packs right now? Probably driving REX demand too, so Trion is happy. #BringTheMytsticNotThePlayer.
    Last edited by Linolea; 06-19-2017 at 08:40 PM.
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  12.   Click here to go to the next Rift Team post in this thread.   #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by forbiddenlake View Post
    balancing is literally never done
    True statement. Souls and skills are always under evaluation.
    Keyens and Vladd have rolled a lot of changes to PTS over the past several months, which will be finalized and prepped to go live with 4.2 this summer.

    As with many other aspects of MMOGs, balance is a contentious topic. In a game with over 4,000 possible soul combinations, there will always be the min-maxed "best" builds and the rest are for us filthy casuals. That said, I watched a rather interesting tournament on last week's hosted RIFTstream (Seshatar ran it) and saw a great many unexpected outcomes in spite of builds and the "no rules" environ. It was really fun to see in action.

    Of course, the best part of classes in RIFT is that you can have that min-maxed "only decent build" for each application, be it PvE, PvP, raids, leveling, etc., and easily switch between them. Not all MMOGs offer this degree of fast flexibility.

    Anyway - PTS is the place to try out the changes. It ain't over till it lands on Live servers, with 4.2 ... and then I suspect it starts again. =)

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chrissibow View Post
    Sadly Trion never nerfs a little. Rogue will go from 1.2m to 500K. Then they sit dying for months after.

    It's what Trion has always done. And I've been here since day one.

    Never understood it either. They have the perfect vehicle for helping or hurts build.

    For every point in you Tree you get 1% damage. For a DPS toon.

    So 61%.

    Not going enough make is 1.1% and so what happens.

    To high make is .9%

    Raise and lower the number a tiny bit at a time.

    But they wouldn't. It will be 61% let's say to zero. Then they'll looked shock when everyone stops playing X class.

    Then Trion will leave it for dead crowning a new DPS build letting it do 25%+ more than everyone else for months or end or a whole Xpac.

    Sad because it shouldn't be the hard with a simple change to points in the tree.
    Yes, balancing through small adjustments would be easy and wise. But then everyone would be happy with their builds and wouldn't be enticed to search out other (paid) souls or callings. Nope, better to keep this stuff frustrating to the players.

    That's why they don't do buffs in the same draconian way that they do nerfs. Shaman recently got a "buff" of which you need to compare before / after parses to seek out the dps differences with a microscope.
    Last edited by Xlavius; 06-19-2017 at 10:40 PM.

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chrissibow View Post
    I top FK and a Top Preserver. Ill take the FK 100 out of 100 times. Preserver isn't even close to the best tanker healer. I'd say they are 3rd. And 3 by a mile.

    They aren't bad. But the best? I'd say no.

    But I see you play a Primalist so there no favoritism going I'd say:P
    I'd enjoy seeing an FK spam 500k heal + 500k Shield every 1 second on a tank without cd's.
    Last edited by Gilgad; 06-19-2017 at 11:26 PM. Reason: forgot to add value to the shield

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  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by TrionBrasse View Post
    True statement. Souls and skills are always under evaluation.
    Keyens and Vladd have rolled a lot of changes to PTS over the past several months, which will be finalized and prepped to go live with 4.2 this summer.
    I'm really curious, how are the players supposed to know that? There has been no mention of it on the official forums, there is no (new) topic about the PTS changes on the PTS part of it or anywhere else for that matter. How are the players supposed to know what to check and test (which i'm sure is needed) when we don't even know what's beeing done? There is even still no official Mystic thread up there.We need more comunication from you guys, not silence. Not to mention that it seems that Keyens has pretty much left all the comunication channels.

    Quote Originally Posted by TrionBrasse View Post
    As with many other aspects of MMOGs, balance is a contentious topic. In a game with over 4,000 possible soul combinations, there will always be the min-maxed "best" builds and the rest are for us filthy casuals.
    I've seen this number posted around a lot lately. In my eyes this is bad publicity what you are doing. You claim there's over 4k possible soul combinations, ok fine, there are. But about 1% of them are viable and maybe 2-3% are beeing actively played. That is not a good statistic. I definitely wouldn't want to see a game advertisment saying they have 4k+ class combinations you can play but if you want perform decently or clear top content you can only choose a handful of them. In other words, this number alone when compared to viable souls tells us in how bad a state the ballance really is.

    Quote Originally Posted by TrionBrasse View Post
    That said, I watched a rather interesting tournament on last week's hosted RIFTstream (Seshatar ran it) and saw a great many unexpected outcomes in spite of builds and the "no rules" environ. It was really fun to see in action.
    A very good rogue with very good gear won the turnament and pretty much obliterated almost any other spec that came up against him. I really fail to see where are the so called great many unexpected outcomes here. The only one that was interesting to see was the rogue vs mage fight and if the mage won i would say that would count for an unexpected outcome.

    Quote Originally Posted by TrionBrasse View Post
    Anyway - PTS is the place to try out the changes. It ain't over till it lands on Live servers, with 4.2 ... and then I suspect it starts again. =)
    I'll repeat that again here. How are the players supposed to know that there are any changes on PTS servers when there is no mention of them anywhere? Or should we just go blindly test stuff at random?

    Tyael
    Last edited by Jotunn; 06-20-2017 at 12:57 AM.

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