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  Click here to go to the first Rift Team post in this thread.   Thread: We need to talk about Eternal weapons

  1. #1
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    Default We need to talk about Eternal weapons

    Hi, my name is Balidorf and I am coffeeholic.... and also chocolate. Today I want to talk you about eternal weapons.

    Eternal weapons are an interesting feature that allows one to have a single weapon through out the expansion that we are constantly upgrading and evolving. This is quite interesting, some people quite like it and others don't. This is always the way of things. What I want to talk about on this fine day is not my personal opinion on this feature or whether I like it or not but about it's effect on casual and importantly new players.

    We have just had an influx of new players back to the game through the free expansion weekend. This is good news, I personally had no problem with it and I think it's always good to have new players and old ones coming back. A lot of these players are currently leveling up to 70. When they reach max level and obtain their weapon they will be excited and then suddenly see what they have to do to upgrade their weapons, to catch up as it were to current levels. I have a couple old players come back and hit 70 already and are currently wavering because of what they see as quite an uphill climb, especially for the first upgrade which is 50 event bosses. This, in my mind shows the overall problem with eternal weapons. The upgrades are two few and with too high blocks of content for each one. It just puts people off and at the end of the day Rift is not a hardcore, grind mmo. So you say how could we ease this down a bit Bali, you handsome dwarf you?

    Suggestions:
    • Break up the upgrades into many incremental stages that each have smaller blocks of content. So instead of 50 bosses for one substantial upgrade make it 20 to upgrade half as powerful. Then perhaps 10 experts for another with other acitives etc etc. What this does is make it feel less like climbing a cliff and huge expanses of time between that cool feeling of upgrading weapons while still rewarding more hardcore players that want to burn through the quests (which is fine)
    • Have more actual quests to do rather than arbitrary amounts of in game activities. The team is capable of making some very fun quests, let's have more!
    • Apart from quests above let's do something about experts. Is it possible to do experts of any level as long as we are mentored? Running 100 of 4 experts only is frankly quite boring. I have not tried experts mentored down for a long time so I am not sure how feasible this is but lets have a look.This is also a nod to the idea of developing a system where experts of all levels are always viable with a capable mentoring and loot system, but I digress.
    • General variety of activities. Lets have more activities. Rather than say 100 experts lets do 20 experts, 30 instant adventures, 20 rifts, 20 footholds, dance about, make a cake etc etc.
    • Give alternatives. "What do you mean bali?, also why do you talk to yourself in a forum post?' shut up you. How about 20 experts OR win 15 wfs. Don't make people do pvp but give people an option to instead if they like. Trion has stated several times that most players do a bit of everything so lets give em a chance to do so
    • More Item options - We really do need more options for items. Warriors and Clerics getting access to the tank weapons at eternal is too far off in my opinion and should be accessable way sooner. Players should be able to transform weapons as well. For instance a cleric may prefer to use a 1 hand and off hand. Could they somehow transform the 2 hander into these items, Could a warrior change their 2 handed sword into a pair of 1 handers if they fancied it for instance?
    • Procs - Some of them are quite clunky and difficult to actually go off. Some are fixed values and some are percentange based which may become a problem later on. For instance as a warrior, if I am not playing tempest I have to chuck in a lot of OGCD spells such as shields, slows or worryingly, interupts. If I am Riftblade I can't take the mastery for two avatars as it is tied to regen. Lets take a look at these
    • Lastly and perhaps importantly, catch up. I would suggest that by 4.2 that if none of my suggestions are implemented, Trion needs to reduce the numbers required for each stage. This is fairly standard catch up mechanics and frankly I would do that now for some of the early upgrades. Reduce the colossi needed or change it to events rather than colossi, give wicket more stamina (he has a significantly lower stamina already compared to other minions), reduce experts required. I know some people might not like it but unless you are hard core like mad this is too much to do of content that isnt all that fun in the example of experts. We will lose players and Rift can't afford to do this.

    Thanks for reading and I look forward to being torn to pieces by replies to this thread. Stations!

    Bali
    Last edited by Balidin; 05-19-2017 at 08:55 AM.

  2. #2
    Prophet of Telara Haruchai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Balidin View Post
    Hi, my name is Balidorf and I am coffeeholic.... and also chocolate. Today I want to talk you about eternal weapons.

    Eternal weapons are an interesting feature that allows one to have a single weapon through out the expansion that we are constantly upgrading and evolving. This is quite interesting, some people quite like it and others don't. This is always the way of things. What I want to talk about on this fine day is not my personal opinion on this feature or whether I like it or not but about it's effect on casual and importantly new players.

    We have just had an influx of new players back to the game through the free expansion weekend. This is good news, I personally had no problem with it and I think it's always good to have new players and old ones coming back. A lot of these players are currently leveling up to 70. When they reach max level and obtain their weapon they will be excited and then suddenly see what they have to do to upgrade their weapons, to catch up as it were to current levels. I have a couple old players come back and hit 70 already and are currently wavering because of what they see as quite an uphill climb, especially for the first upgrade which is 50 event bosses. This, in my mind shows the overall problem with eternal weapons. The upgrades are two few and with too high blocks of content for each one. It just puts people off and at the end of the day Rift is not a hardcore, grind mmo. So you say how could we ease this down a bit Bali, you handsome dwarf you?

    Suggestions:
    • Break up the upgrades into many incremental stages that each have smaller blocks of content. So instead of 50 bosses for one substantial upgrade make it 20 to upgrade half as powerful. Then perhaps 10 experts for another with other acitives etc etc. What this does is make it feel less like climbing a cliff and huge expanses of time between that cool feeling of upgrading weapons while still rewarding more hardcore players that want to burn through the quests (which is fine)
    • Have more actual quests to do rather than arbitrary amounts of in game activities. The team is capable of making some very fun quests, let's have more!
    • Apart from quests above let's do something about experts. Is it possible to do experts of any level as long as we are mentored? Running 100 of 4 experts only is frankly quite boring. I have not tried experts mentored down for a long time so I am not sure how feasible this is but lets have a look.This is also a nod to the idea of developing a system where experts of all levels are always viable with a capable mentoring and loot system, but I digress.
    • General variety of activities. Lets have more activities. Rather than say 100 experts lets do 20 experts, 30 instant adventures, 20 rifts, 20 footholds, dance about, make a cake etc etc.
    • Give alternatives. "What do you mean bali?, also why do you talk to yourself in a forum post?' shut up you. How about 20 experts OR win 15 wfs. Don't make people do pvp but give people an option to instead if they like. Trion has stated several times that most players do a bit of everything so lets give em a chance to do so
    • More Item options - We really do need more options for items. Warriors and Clerics getting access to the tank weapons at eternal is too far off in my opinion and should be accessable way sooner. Players should be able to transform weapons as well. For instance a cleric may prefer to use a 1 hand and off hand. Could they somehow transform the 2 hander into these items, Could a warrior change their 2 handed sword into a pair of 1 handers if they fancied it for instance?
    • Procs - Some of them are quite clunky and difficult to actually go off. Some are fixed values and some are percentange based which may become a problem later on. For instance as a warrior, if I am not playing tempest I have to chuck in a lot of OGCD spells such as shields, slows or worryingly, interupts. If I am Riftblade I can't take the mastery for two avatars as it is tied to regen. Lets take a look at these
    • Lastly and perhaps importantly, catch up. I would suggest that by 4.2 that if none of my suggestions are implemented, Trion needs to reduce the numbers required for each stage. This is fairly standard catch up mechanics and frankly I would do that now for some of the early upgrades. Reduce the colossi needed or change it to events rather than colossi, give wicket more stamina (he has a significantly lower stamina already compared to other minions), reduce experts required. I know some people might not like it but unless you are hard core like mad this is too much to do of content that isnt all that fun in the example of experts. We will lose players and Rift can't afford to do this.

    Thanks for reading and I look forward to being torn to pieces by replies to this thread. Stations!

    Bali
    I disagree as I believe uber powerful stuff should take a lot to upgrade to max. At this point in the game, with pop and participation as it is, I think its a good step from trion to force participation and it does seem to be accomplishing that.

    I'm not hardcore but find the requirements easy to fulfil, as long as u don't want to fully upgrade the gear in a day.

  3. #3
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    i also disagree, but add: they dont have to have the weapon equipped while upgrading it. the dungeon/LFR/raid weapons are perfectly fine to use without (or while) grinding your eternal weapon.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Balidin View Post
    [*]Have more actual quests to do rather than arbitrary amounts of in game activities. The team is capable of making some very fun quests, let's have more! [*] Apart from quests above let's do something about experts. Is it possible to do experts of any level as long as we are mentored? Running 100 of 4 experts only is frankly quite boring. I have not tried experts mentored down for a long time so I am not sure how feasible this is but lets have a look.This is also a nod to the idea of developing a system where experts of all levels are always viable with a capable mentoring and loot system, but I digress. [*] General variety of activities. Lets have more activities. Rather than say 100 experts lets do 20 experts, 30 instant adventures, 20 rifts, 20 footholds, dance about, make a cake etc etc. [*] Give alternatives. "What do you mean bali?, also why do you talk to yourself in a forum post?' shut up you. How about 20 experts OR win 15 wfs. Don't make people do pvp but give people an option to instead if they like. Trion has stated several times that most players do a bit of everything so lets give em a chance to do so

    I definitely agree with these points.
    Yes, upgrading an item like that should take a lot of time and effort, but who says it can't also be more fun? Variety, giving people options and also giving them a way to do something easy and less tedious once in a while is always a good choice.
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    I have to agree with the OP. Of course getting a BiS weapon should not be easy, but it also should not be mind-numbingly dull. Instead of "do the same 4 dungeons 100 times" they could have something like "kill 100 dungeon bosses that give XP". That would have been a great incentive to return to some of the old content, it would add a wide variety of things to do, and finally would also benefit new players (as they had a chance to get some LFG dungeons pop). But "do the exact same boring stuff 100 times"? Thanks, but... no.

  6. #6
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    Also agree here. A weapon that good should take time to achieve but the more interesting and varied it is the more fun people have whilst working towards the end goal.

    Large multiples of exactly the same thing is tedious and dull.

  7. #7
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    This process should be hard, and long time investment. The problem what I see: everyone wants to grind in a couple of days then they complaining there is nothing to do. Trion should figure out more varied requirements I admit that.

  8. #8
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    I think that there are cooler ways to do quests for really awesome weapons, the epic quest in chocolate rift for a relic weapon was one of the coolest quest chains I've ever done. Although this kind of thing takes more design work than "Close 100 Rifts", to be fair.

  9. #9
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    Some of the steps are indeed daunting, especially when you break them down.

    For instance, the second upgrade requires 1000 invasions defeated. This can be misleading at first. What counts as an invasion? Those groups of planar mobs on set paths during zone events, each group of those mobs counts as one invasion. Usually 3-5 mobs per group in the higher level zones. This basically means you have to kill 3000-5000 of those mobs.

    Once I realized that, it definitely put a damper on my motivation to upgrade my eternal weapon. Combined with the 50 colossi too, which means 50 zone events, which means potentially thousands of more mobs dead since it's very rare that you find a zone event with the boss already out.

    To me, this isn't skill based, and it's not even endurance based. It's just pure lazy grind that isn't fun by any means, and it makes the upgrade not seem worth it at all. I am all for more upgrade levels, but at smaller increments, that way we can spread the grind around a bit.

    The other problem with the current eternal weapons is that it absolutely kills alts. I pray for anyone's mental state after willingly doing the eternal weapon quest chain more than once.

    Also the minion step is the most blatantly "we're going to make you wait now" thing I've ever seen in an MMO. There's no skill, there's no options, it's really just "you have to wait X amount of days....unless you pay."

    Keep in mind, I like the eternal weapon concept, I like the idea, I think it's fantastic. I just wish it were implemented a little better, and with a little more regard for the players having to go through all of these steps. I am not asking to be gifted an OP BiS weapon, I want to work for it, I just don't want to be mindlessly bored while I do work for it. I know trion has the capability to be inventive with these quests, and have them both be hard, and fun, to do.
    Last edited by Orochan; 05-20-2017 at 08:46 AM.
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  10. #10
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    Default Just say No

    I personally love it exactly the way it is now. I also happen to love the way fragments are designed. It allows me to create different things. From a 61 tank that can pull 200K+ in an expert, a 61 tank that can solo heal an expert, a DPS that can solo heal an Expert, a healer that does far more damage than the normal pug healing of 0. And the list goes on with all the flexibility you now have.

    From these posts, and in talking to others, along with my own opinion, the upgrade should stay an extremely tough and long set of challenges.

    Now, define challenge?

    Doing the 50 Colossi, 1000 Invasions, 100 Level 70 Experts,16 Kills of the last boss in TD, etc., some may says these are tough, others may say they're easy. To me, both are right, and both are wrong. It's all in the perspective of each person.

    What currently is happening is these tasks test your patience, tenacity, and willingness to push through despite the fatigue and numbness. Making it any level Expert dungeon, makes it a complete and total cake walk. Even in quested greens, every non-Level 70 dungeon, even when mentored, can be solo'd sub 15 minutes. 20 minutes if you stopped to take a long bio break.

    The only real challenge left for any character is, well, not much of anything. Even the current "toughest" raid is easy. And this coming from a 1-armed, arthritic, nearly blind old person. The game has become so easy due to, in my opinion, all those asking for things to be easier, with every aspect of the game being more "friendly". So the only challenges left are things to test one's patience, tenacity and willingness to slough through a ton of mind numbing tasks. For those that sought out easy, it seems that you got your wish.

    Unless everything becomes FAR, FAR more challenging than it is now, my vote is leave it exactly as it is now. That way those that of us that are patient, tenacious and willing to do whatever it takes, are the ones to reap the rewards.
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  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orochan View Post
    For instance, the second upgrade requires 1000 invasions defeated. This can be misleading at first. What counts as an invasion? Those groups of planar mobs on set paths during zone events, each group of those mobs counts as one invasion. Usually 3-5 mobs per group in the higher level zones. This basically means you have to kill 3000-5000 of those mobs.
    OR... you just kill invasions while doing 50 zone events. Instead of "grinding 1000 invasion" THEN "grinding 50 colossi" just read the quest as "do 50 zone events". I completed my invasions at about 45 zone events so the quest is actually quite cohesive. in comparison the 20 rifts for this stage is laughably easy.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dimples View Post
    I personally love it exactly the way it is now.
    Thanks for the reply. The main point is to make it more interesting and fun, not easier. This isn't a thread about challenge or game difficulty. It is about making this particular system more enjoyable and fun and less off putting to current and new players. I am sure some people like it as you appear to and that is great but a lot don't and find it to be a drag and not very interesting. We can make it better for all I am sure

  13. #13
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    I would like to add my support to the idea of breaking the upgrade level up into stages - people are always better motivated if they get smaller rewards more often rather then feeling there's a cliff to climb.

    It wouldn't for example make the 1000 invasions any 'easier' (I don't think they are hard, just time consuming) to have 3 stages of upgrade say 100, 300, 600, with some stat gain for each. For the grinder, it wont make a jot of difference - they will still crack on at the same speed and aim to do it in a few days. But for the more casual player it will mean they get some gains in a reasonable timeframe. Ultimately they are still gonna do all the same stuff, but they are going to be motivated by feeling small increases as they go rather than the desire not to feel like ****e because their weapon is so much worse than the person at the next tier. By all means make some steps give bigger stat gains to mark a milestone, but try to entice the casual player to participate rather than punish them for not.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orochan View Post
    Some of the steps are indeed daunting, especially when you break them down.

    For instance, the second upgrade requires 1000 invasions defeated. This can be misleading at first. What counts as an invasion? Those groups of planar mobs on set paths during zone events, each group of those mobs counts as one invasion. Usually 3-5 mobs per group in the higher level zones. This basically means you have to kill 3000-5000 of those mobs.

    Once I realized that, it definitely put a damper on my motivation to upgrade my eternal weapon. Combined with the 50 colossi too, which means 50 zone events, which means potentially thousands of more mobs dead since it's very rare that you find a zone event with the boss already out.

    To me, this isn't skill based, and it's not even endurance based. It's just pure lazy grind that isn't fun by any means, and it makes the upgrade not seem worth it at all. I am all for more upgrade levels, but at smaller increments, that way we can spread the grind around a bit.

    The other problem with the current eternal weapons is that it absolutely kills alts. I pray for anyone's mental state after willingly doing the eternal weapon quest chain more than once.

    Also the minion step is the most blatantly "we're going to make you wait now" thing I've ever seen in an MMO. There's no skill, there's no options, it's really just "you have to wait X amount of days....unless you pay."

    Keep in mind, I like the eternal weapon concept, I like the idea, I think it's fantastic. I just wish it were implemented a little better, and with a little more regard for the players having to go through all of these steps. I am not asking to be gifted an OP BiS weapon, I want to work for it, I just don't want to be mindlessly bored while I do work for it. I know trion has the capability to be inventive with these quests, and have them both be hard, and fun, to do.
    RIFT isn't for alts anymore.

    Which makes it hilarious if Trion expected to make sales of Primalist.

  15. #15
    Prophet of Telara Haruchai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vetheax View Post
    I think that there are cooler ways to do quests for really awesome weapons, the epic quest in chocolate rift for a relic weapon was one of the coolest quest chains I've ever done. Although this kind of thing takes more design work than "Close 100 Rifts", to be fair.
    Everyone is focussed an the notion that its all about upgrading the weapon and saying should be more quests not rifts or invasions, most are missing why Trion did it this way. Quests, you would do solo, forcing you to participate in content that all are involved in is the aim, not taking you away from everyone else to solo stuff.

    I think Trion did what they had to do given the state of the game.

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