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  Click here to go to the first Rift Team post in this thread.   Thread: Any plans to fix massive class imbalance?

  1. #16
    Rift Chaser Klingensturm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dayzed View Post
    Should i just delete my main and reroll a warrior or primalist?
    Yes please, and tell me know what dps you can pull out when you have to play a proper rotation and not only hitting 1 button like Clerics and Mages which i guess you are playing.
    Last edited by Klingensturm; 04-20-2017 at 05:30 AM.
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  2. #17
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    edit: nvm I was gonna make fun of threads that complain about class balance when the past 5 months... yea nvm



    Also instead of class balance that can easily be changed, you should be worrying about eternal weapon bonus imbalance.
    Why only primalist and warrior get pure +% multiplier bonus that will continue to scale higher and higher with better gear while mages clerics and rogues are stuck with pathetic flat +xxxx bonus that will not change as gear improves?
    Last edited by FateStayNight; 04-20-2017 at 05:57 AM.

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by FateStayNight View Post
    edit: nvm I was gonna make fun of threads that complain about class balance when the past 5 months... yea nvm



    Also instead of class balance that can easily be changed, you should be worrying about eternal weapon bonus imbalance.
    Why only primalist and warrior get pure +% multiplier bonus that will continue to scale higher and higher with better gear while mages clerics and rogues are stuck with pathetic flat +xxxx bonus that will not change as gear improves?
    Except that flat +XXX bonus becomes VERY large VERY quickly. It's like +1000 by the 3rd upgrade, and goes up to like +10,000 or something stupid by the end. Our resident cleric expert in my guild has said that since these modify the base damage, they actually scale exceedingly well with all abilities. So the mage and cleric weps start out weaker and get much, much stronger as they go.

    Warrior on the other hand requires you to energy starve, which is actually sort of a pain to do on a consistent basis, but not often enough that you are starving yourself when it's on cooldown. The prima one is pretty great though because most specs have their bar travel fully both ways, no denying that.

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boxsmith View Post
    Except that flat +XXX bonus becomes VERY large VERY quickly.
    Using warrior version the buff goes up to 50%.

    Rogue version can go up to 6000 damage and if you could stack it 5 times that's 30k damage a gcd.

    Do you even know what you are talking about?
    Warrior version has 50% uptime and using tempest lets assume tempest cannot burst at all whatsoever.
    So the 50% bonus at 50% uptime is basically 25% more dps... (this is a severe underestimation as tempest could deal 60% to 70% of total dps during this time frame but I reduced this for simplicity).

    Assuming a tempest is doing 800k dps. 25% of that is 200k dps.

    So for other classes to reach that 200k dps bonus you really think +30k flat damage per gcd will convert into 200,000 dps extra?

    For the eternal bonus to be balanced mages rogues and clerics will need at least +100,000 to +200,000 damage to reach the 50% that's already existing. And when RotP comes out and the warrior dps goes to 1 million their weapon buff goes from 200k to 250k while the rest stay the same.

    Ive already seem warrior using tier 6 doing 800k dps, and my example here is assuming tier 7.

    So tell me...

    This is not rocket science. How much + flat damage do you think we will need to make up two hundred thousand extra (200,000) damage each second? And I can tell you right now +10k/20k or even 30k per attack isn't enough and this is assuming 100% uptime for the other classes bonus while underestimating that tempest actually has a linear dps delivery (in case you didn't know it isn't).
    Last edited by FateStayNight; 04-20-2017 at 08:19 AM.

  5. #20
    Prophet of Telara Holyroller12's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dundare View Post
    To me this is silly. The devs work on dimensions and fluff 24-7, but cannot turn out raid content, class balance, new classes, and beyond that dont even bother with pvp stuff anymore.
    To be fair, all of the new dimension stuff that just came out recently has been a long time coming. Dimensioneers haven't had any big updates for over a year or what seems like it. Especially not on this scale. These new items have also been driving the in game economy as well as putting more funding into development as people buy and consume more REX to buy these new items. As someone already mentioned above, we have new systems in place with this expansion that's tied to gear and stats and that's where a lot of the imbalance started. The stats on the expert gear prior to SFP launching were worse overall compared to comet of ahnket gear + fragments. They ended up giving the gear a huge boost a few days before launch which threw everything off by the time people were hitting 70 and picking the gear up as the specs and legendaries weren't originally balanced around that. The systems guys have been playing catch up ever since.

    Things also have to be re-balanced (which as I stated in my previous post they're already working on) before iRotp so that they can properly tune the fights and not nerf callings to the point where it's impossible to kill anything.

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  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by FateStayNight View Post
    Using warrior version the buff goes up to 50%.

    Rogue version can go up to 6000 damage and if you could stack it 5 times that's 30k damage a gcd.

    Do you even know what you are talking about?
    Warrior version has 50% uptime and using tempest lets assume tempest cannot burst at all whatsoever.
    So the 50% bonus at 50% uptime is basically 25% more dps... (this is a severe underestimation as tempest could deal 60% to 70% of total dps during this time frame but I reduced this for simplicity).

    Assuming a tempest is doing 800k dps. 25% of that is 200k dps.

    So for other classes to reach that 200k dps bonus you really think +30k flat damage per gcd will convert into 200,000 dps extra?

    For the eternal bonus to be balanced mages rogues and clerics will need at least +100,000 to +200,000 damage to reach the 50% that's already existing. And when RotP comes out and the warrior dps goes to 1 million their weapon buff goes from 200k to 250k while the rest stay the same.

    Ive already seem warrior using tier 6 doing 800k dps, and my example here is assuming tier 7.

    So tell me...

    This is not rocket science. How much + flat damage do you think we will need to make up two hundred thousand extra (200,000) damage each second? And I can tell you right now +10k/20k or even 30k per attack isn't enough and this is assuming 100% uptime for the other classes bonus while underestimating that tempest actually has a linear dps delivery (in case you didn't know it isn't).
    Okay okay okay easy there skip. First off, tempest is getting nerfed into the mud.

    So that 200k? Way, way off. Even 600k (st) sustained is high for MOST tempests, so let's assume 500k. This is pretty standard NOW. Maybe 400k will be standard raid dps for a Tempest when the dust settles for the nerfs, so let's say it's 100k bonus dps at the highest. So 500k, very, very tentatively.

    There are clerics who can already do that with non-eternal eternal weapons, given the right circumstances. And inquis and shaman are BOTH getting buffed in the same patch that Tempest gets nerfed.

    Most of the super high Tempest parses are just due to lossless cleave and very easy target swapping. Between making the primary target no longer suffer from lightning rod, and reducing the wavelength passive, Tempest is no longer going to be anywhere near the top dog of PvE.

    And the mage and cleric eternal bonuses are applied to the base damage, as I understand it. That means that it scales in a multiplicative way with each ability and its damage calculation. So it seems small-ish, but it's deceptively large.

    So basically, I haven't ran any numbers, but eternals are probably more balanced than you're giving them credit for (with the exception of rogue i guess) and it's pointless to gripe about tempest because it's about to suck again for st.
    Last edited by Boxsmith; 04-20-2017 at 01:04 PM.

  7. #22
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    though the cleric eternal is nowhere near the uptime of the other classes eternal wepon sadly

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boxsmith View Post
    Even 600k (st) sustained is high for MOST tempests,
    /sigh sigh

    Ok let's try this again guy.

    A **** tempest that can only do 500k using Lv7 eternal.
    And assume tempest has zero burst at all.
    This gives us that the tempest is actually only doing 500k*.75 = 375k.

    So for even the ****test tempest in the world the proc gave 125,000 more damage each second.

    So tell me,

    How much + flat damage do you think we will need to make up one hundred thousand two hundred fifty extra (125,000) damage each second? And I can tell you right now +10k/20k or even 30k per attack isn't enough and this is assuming 100% uptime for the other classes bonus while underestimating that tempest actually has a linear dps delivery (in case you didn't know it isn't).

    Get it? the existing flat bonus is no where near the magnitude of the straight multiplier.
    There are stupid imbalance in eternal weapon bonus, as even for the worst warrior ever that can only play tempest with 1 button the eternal proc provided way more dps than the typical +flat bonus and this figure can only go up when gear improves which is not the case for the normal classes with +flat bonus.

    Again not rocket science.

  9. #24
    Prophet of Telara Haruchai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dundare View Post
    To me this is silly. The devs work on dimensions and fluff 24-7, but cannot turn out raid content, class balance, new classes, and beyond that dont even bother with pvp stuff anymore.
    In my opinion it was inevitable once they went f2p. I believe that while it may not have been a deliberate thing, there would have been downward pressure, subtle or otherwise, to place more emphasis on things that show a direct return. It would be an exceptional group of people that could spread the focus over content and purchasable items.

  10. #25
    Rift Disciple Samuraii's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boxsmith View Post
    Okay okay okay easy there skip. First off, tempest is getting nerfed into the mud.

    So that 200k? Way, way off. Even 600k (st) sustained is high for MOST tempests, so let's assume 500k. This is pretty standard NOW. Maybe 400k will be standard raid dps for a Tempest when the dust settles for the nerfs, so let's say it's 100k bonus dps at the highest. So 500k, very, very tentatively.

    There are clerics who can already do that with non-eternal eternal weapons, given the right circumstances. And inquis and shaman are BOTH getting buffed in the same patch that Tempest gets nerfed.

    Most of the super high Tempest parses are just due to lossless cleave and very easy target swapping. Between making the primary target no longer suffer from lightning rod, and reducing the wavelength passive, Tempest is no longer going to be anywhere near the top dog of PvE.

    And the mage and cleric eternal bonuses are applied to the base damage, as I understand it. That means that it scales in a multiplicative way with each ability and its damage calculation. So it seems small-ish, but it's deceptively large.

    So basically, I haven't ran any numbers, but eternals are probably more balanced than you're giving them credit for (with the exception of rogue i guess) and it's pointless to gripe about tempest because it's about to suck again for st.
    I dont know what game you are playing, where do clerics pull those number, and what circumstances?

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by FateStayNight View Post
    /sigh sigh

    Ok let's try this again guy.

    A **** tempest that can only do 500k using Lv7 eternal.
    And assume tempest has zero burst at all.
    This gives us that the tempest is actually only doing 500k*.75 = 375k.

    So for even the ****test tempest in the world the proc gave 125,000 more damage each second.

    So tell me,

    How much + flat damage do you think we will need to make up one hundred thousand two hundred fifty extra (125,000) damage each second? And I can tell you right now +10k/20k or even 30k per attack isn't enough and this is assuming 100% uptime for the other classes bonus while underestimating that tempest actually has a linear dps delivery (in case you didn't know it isn't).

    Get it? the existing flat bonus is no where near the magnitude of the straight multiplier.
    There are stupid imbalance in eternal weapon bonus, as even for the worst warrior ever that can only play tempest with 1 button the eternal proc provided way more dps than the typical +flat bonus and this figure can only go up when gear improves which is not the case for the normal classes with +flat bonus.

    Again not rocket science.
    You are literally the source of my entertainment sometimes, I love it.

    Also the primalist changes will only effect pvp OPNess.

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  12. #27
    Rift Master The Raki's Avatar
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    I see things haven't changed in the year+ I been gone. Everyone still wanting warriors to be nerfed lol.

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by FateStayNight View Post
    /sigh sigh

    Ok let's try this again guy.

    A **** tempest that can only do 500k using Lv7 eternal.
    And assume tempest has zero burst at all.
    This gives us that the tempest is actually only doing 500k*.75 = 375k.

    So for even the ****test tempest in the world the proc gave 125,000 more damage each second.

    So tell me,

    How much + flat damage do you think we will need to make up one hundred thousand two hundred fifty extra (125,000) damage each second? And I can tell you right now +10k/20k or even 30k per attack isn't enough and this is assuming 100% uptime for the other classes bonus while underestimating that tempest actually has a linear dps delivery (in case you didn't know it isn't).

    Get it? the existing flat bonus is no where near the magnitude of the straight multiplier.
    There are stupid imbalance in eternal weapon bonus, as even for the worst warrior ever that can only play tempest with 1 button the eternal proc provided way more dps than the typical +flat bonus and this figure can only go up when gear improves which is not the case for the normal classes with +flat bonus.

    Again not rocket science.
    Huh, you're basing those numbers on current dps. But when we will have the last tier weapons, the rest of the gear will be better, and so will the dps.

    It makes the gap between Flat bonus damage and % even worse than you're planning it to be.

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kreezhem View Post
    Huh, you're basing those numbers on current dps. But when we will have the last tier weapons, the rest of the gear will be better, and so will the dps.

    It makes the gap between Flat bonus damage and % even worse than you're planning it to be.
    Didn't you just repeat what I said?
    Didn't I say % buff will continue to scale as gear improves whereas flat bonus wouldn't?
    Yes, yes I did.

    Thanks for confirming.

  15. #30
    Telaran Kreezhem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FateStayNight View Post
    Didn't you just repeat what I said?
    Didn't I say % buff will continue to scale as gear improves whereas flat bonus wouldn't?
    Yes, yes I did.

    Thanks for confirming.
    My bad I must have skipped that line.

    But I Indeed agree that having flat damage buff and %damage buff will never be balanced, they have one unique balance point related to the average dps.

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