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Thread: Patron that does not raid

  1. #1
    Soulwalker
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    Default Patron that does not raid

    Don't really care just saying here if you are a patron who does not raid you can not upgrade any sparkle gear that you get random after 125 zone events wtf lol

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    Shadowlander
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    And pure PVE'rs have been forced to have to go do PvP for storyline quests and other stuff in the past too. This aint nothing terribly new.

    That said: If you arn't raiding, you don't need the absolute best gear in the game. Nor do you really deserve it.

    Risk vs Reward.

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    Plane Walker Serein's Avatar
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    Only a few of the pieces require raid boss kills. Granted, it's some of the bigger pieces, but many of them require either nothing (most jewelry) or open world stuff (colossi, rifts, etc.). Guess you must've gotten one of the kill-to-upgrade pieces
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    Ascendant forbiddenlake's Avatar
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    I believe the problem is the engines.

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    Don't raid (lfr isnt challenging and extremely non-raider friendly) then you don't need upgrades on your pve gear. The upgrade stats are meant to be a barrier to entry or skill supplement for the next tier.

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    Isp
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    Sparkles are completely useless now - even if they gave fully upgraded TD gear - such tiny reward is not worth efforts
    New player? Apply code TD2TGJH9WGYYLEGC2EMJ or use the link for some free stuff.

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    Ral
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xethx View Post
    That said: If you arn't raiding, you don't need the absolute best gear in the game. Nor do you really deserve it.

    Risk vs Reward.
    Quote Originally Posted by makerofwidows View Post
    Don't raid (lfr isnt challenging and extremely non-raider friendly) then you don't need upgrades on your pve gear. The upgrade stats are meant to be a barrier to entry or skill supplement for the next tier.

    This is a pretty tired argument since in most cases you don't need the "the absolute best gear" to actually raid either, at least not if you are competent. You most certainly don't "need" relics/upgrades for the next tier, only the hit from the previous tier.

    The only reason one "needs" to upgrade anything from LFR (or any raid for that matter) is because you have to overgear other stuff, be it killing faster/easier in the open world, dungeons, later raids, etc. Generally, upgrading gear is a convenience and is only as necessary for "raiders" as it is for anyone else.

    I find it funny in that people ask for raid geared players to do dungeons/group content, then complain that players that only do dungeons and don't raid aren't sufficiently geared, but should not be allowed to have raid gear.

    At any rate, the drop is currently only available from LFR, but I wouldn't be surprised if it appears elsewhere later like it does in nearly every tier. Also LFR is pretty trivial to be getting elitist over already.
    Last edited by Ral; 04-17-2017 at 11:27 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ral View Post
    This is a pretty tired argument since in most cases you don't need the "the absolute best gear" to actually raid either, at least not if you are competent. You most certainly don't "need" relics/upgrades for the next tier, only the hit from the previous tier.

    The only reason one "needs" to upgrade anything from LFR (or any raid for that matter) is because you have to overgear other stuff, be it killing faster/easier in the open world, dungeons, later raids, etc. Generally, upgrading gear is a convenience and is only as necessary for "raiders" as it is for anyone else.

    I find it funny in that people ask for raid geared players to do dungeons/group content, then complain that players that only do dungeons and don't raid aren't sufficiently geared, but should not be allowed to have raid gear.
    upgrades will certainly matter for irotp prog, so yes raiders would like to have those done before the next tier comes out....not seeing how its a tired argument. if people who raid dont need upgraded raid gear (To use in THE NEXT TIER) why would people who dont raid need it for the fresh level 70 content..... its a luxury to even have access via the sparkle quest. the traditional gear progression is hit is the bare minimum for entry but good luck clearing that instance just scraping the hit barrier without proper runes, orbs, specs etc. TD as well as SP experts took a deviation from the traditional gear progression and difficulty scaling but im hoping proper iROTP tuning and class balance will be a swift kick of a reminder to players that you arent entitled to endgame perks and must expend effort and skill progressing/working and building towards the "grats" that used to mean something after progging on a boss and finally popping that kill cheeve notification.

    next point people ask for raid geared players because it used to show skill, but now TD gear takes little skill to get so it just shows you got some stats and rolling your face on the keyboard will output more per button smash. personally i dont feel like wasting my time teaching a full expert geared player why hes only doing 1/3 to 1/2 of his callings potention when im trying to power through to get to my eternal so yes most will ask for a bit moremotivated player to join their group. its not mandatory to invite everyone who thinks they should join, when forming your own group you earn the right to be selective and the beauty of an mmo is there are plenty of players in the many skill brackets to accommodate this. there are even entire guilds out there, one claims to be the most active in rift, that pride themselves on complacency and that their players are not pressured to be competitive but improve at their own pace which is perfectly fine and not a bad thing at all. the top end of players rarely point and laugh at others for the difference in skill (they actually call other good players bad its kind of funny) but lets be honest here a person who may not want to raid or is considering trying it out because they enjoyed gearing up in experts and just finished his dungeon epics(5 months later) should not be offended when a group asking for 250k+ dps for their TD run doesnt want to take them. hes 5 months behind the LFR que system is more their speed.

    it would be pretty silly for me to expect, let alone think i deserve, ohhh idk the 600 hit eternal weapon if i were a player who only builds dimensions. they make items accessible via the type and difficulty of content that requires them. which sounds like a no brainer kind of system. imagine the outrage if dimensioneers could get those massive stats through placing xxx/1000 dimenstion items but a raider had to clear 100 experts, kill raid bosses and close 500+ rifts.

    to close a player in unupgraded TD items should be STEAMROLLING dungeons as the stat jump is hugeeeee in comparison to the crappy 250 hit greens people were slapping on just to que up. soo yeah players who solely do dungeons dont really and should't really be given an avenue for even higher rewards when not stepping into the content. TD is a 10 man dungeon skill level(if that) and doesnt require all that much time investment or group scheduling like a traditional raid instance would[ie raids thursday saturday at X:30 ST]. you want the engines go do the content that has them.
    Last edited by makerofwidows; 04-17-2017 at 10:44 PM.

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    Plane Touched Captain Kremmen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xethx View Post

    That said: If you arn't raiding, you don't need the absolute best gear in the game. Nor do you really deserve it.

    Risk vs Reward.
    What gives you the right to decide what people do, or do not deserve to have in-game?

    Not everyone has the time to raid, that does not mean they do not deserve to have good gear. Raiders and PVPers need to stop thinking they are somehow better and, therefore entitled to more just because of the content they choose to participate in.

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    Ascendant Gilgad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Kremmen View Post
    What gives you the right to decide what people do, or do not deserve to have in-game?

    Not everyone has the time to raid, that does not mean they do not deserve to have good gear. Raiders and PVPers need to stop thinking they are somehow better and, therefore entitled to more just because of the content they choose to participate in.
    ????????????????????????

    How dare raiders assume that people who raid deserve raid gear and people that don't don't!

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  11. #11
    Prophet of Telara Stihl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Kremmen View Post
    What gives you the right to decide what people do, or do not deserve to have in-game?

    Not everyone has the time to raid, that does not mean they do not deserve to have good gear. Raiders and PVPers need to stop thinking they are somehow better and, therefore entitled to more just because of the content they choose to participate in.
    I don't get what's with the safe space, everyone-deserves-everything attitude.

    Doing X content gives Y rewards.

    In order to obtain Y rewards, you have to do X content.

    It's really that simple.

    And the whole "elitest" angle doesn't work anymore. 80 groups cleared TD on launch day. You can literally sleepwalk through the place in 40 minutes worst case scenario.
    Last edited by Stihl; 04-18-2017 at 06:11 AM.

  12. #12
    Prophet of Telara Valfador's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Kremmen View Post
    What gives you the right to decide what people do, or do not deserve to have in-game?

    Not everyone has the time to raid, that does not mean they do not deserve to have good gear. Raiders and PVPers need to stop thinking they are somehow better and, therefore entitled to more just because of the content they choose to participate in.
    Don't think it's a matter of deserving rather... What's the point in gear that will let you kill and survive endgame bosses when the only thing you'll be doing in it is.... **** I don't know what there is to do in Rift that is challenging. Yeah you're right actually, just hand out gear anyway to everyone :P
    Last edited by Valfador; 04-18-2017 at 06:20 AM.
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  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stihl View Post
    I don't get what's with the safe space, everyone-deserves-everything attitude.

    Doing X content gives Y rewards.

    In order to obtain Y rewards, you have to do X content.

    It's really that simple.

    And the whole "elitest" angle doesn't work anymore. 80 groups cleared TD on launch day. You can literally sleepwalk through the place in 40 minutes worst case scenario.
    TD is fairly straightforward to run. It's got some mechanics but nothing too difficult. The big difference is that it's 10 people running the dungeon versus five in the experts.

    Just brush up on the mechanics for each fight and you'll have an enjoyable time. As Stihl says, it's literally 30-40 minutes to do which is half the time dungeon siege in Xarth Mire takes and there are better rewards too !!

    It's definitely not the 20 man progression raids of old.

    Have some fun and enjoy the dungeon. Visually, there is a lot to see.

  14. #14
    Ral
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    Quote Originally Posted by makerofwidows View Post
    upgrades will certainly matter for irotp prog...
    I have yet to witness a single raid tier which requires the relics/upgrades of the previous tier to progress let alone complete by a player of average skill, dare I say even on hard mode. Relics have always been a luxury, even for raiders.

    While the TD upgrades are indeed a significant boost, if Trion intends iRoTP to be targeted to 25% of the population, it will certainly not be impossible for any average player with no more then the hit required to actually connect.

    Quote Originally Posted by Valfador View Post
    Don't think it's a matter of deserving rather... What's the point in gear that will let you kill and survive endgame bosses when the only thing you'll be doing in it is.... **** I don't know what there is to do in Rift that is challenging. Yeah you're right actually, just hand out gear anyway to everyone :P
    Premise 1: Getting better gear provides better stats. (A->B)
    Premise 2: Better stats allow you to perform in combat better. (B->C)
    Premise 3: Performing better in combat is more efficient. (C->D)
    Premise 4: Being more efficient is desirable. (D->E)
    By the principle of transitivity of implication, ((A->B) ^ (B->C) ^ (C->D) ^ (D->E)) -> (A->E)
    Conclusion: Getting better gear is desirable.
    An since each premise is true for both raiding and non-raiding, necessarily the conclusion must also be true for both.

    Additionally Trion has classically developed extensions to world content such as Ember Island, Dendrome and Planetouched Wilds (and presumably the analogously implied new area coming soon) with increased damage and health on mobs under the assumption most players have more advanced gear then the "basic" quest/world gear. As a result this design pattern suggests they intend non-raiders to advance their gear as well, and requires some advancement system to exist. Unfortunately Trion often relies on raid gear to be the primary source for this non-raid advancement but has in the past also included other advancement systems.

    With the removal of lock box gear upgrade system and further push toward reducing basic gear proliferation (i.e. gear unification) the pseudo-necessity for raid gear will become more prevalent unless alternative gearing systems are added to supplement them.

    I don't expect them to just give everyone everything immediately, but Trion's own game design does not seem to support the concept only raiders can use raid gear and therefor only raiders should have raid gear as necessity nor as a finality.

    Trion could alternatively just implement a system in which "raid" gear is rendered valueless in stats outside raid instances.
    Last edited by Ral; 04-18-2017 at 04:02 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ral View Post
    I have yet to witness a single raid tier which requires the relics/upgrades of the previous tier to progress let alone complete by a player of average skill, dare I say even on hard mode. Relics have always been a luxury, even for raiders.
    .
    we are not talking about relics here were talking about synergy crystal set bonuses and stat upgrades. yet to witness a single raid tier where players had upgrades from the previous tier to complete hardmodes???? hello iGP HM where groups frequently ran 1/4 HM for those acessories and the dps check on 2/4 was real tight when current. oh pre-nerf ungolok says hello aswell while he smiles and waves holding hands with jinoscoth, just naming a few.

    you seem to confuse prior tier upgrades with current tier upgrades ie people dont need upgraded TD gear to clear TD but are meant to have a gear progression where once they have upgrades and get into the next tier with them loot from bosses will allow the transition to be made from prog to farming a tier. thats why things like loot councils used to exist to put those stats on priority targets in the hopes of making the next boss less challenging.

    people who dont raid should be thankful they're getting access to those giant stat stick helm and ranged for doing littler more than a crafting rift group run. thats an extra 100 hit and massive luxury stats they dont need out in the open world.

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Kremmen View Post
    What gives you the right to decide what people do, or do not deserve to have in-game?
    Not everyone has the time to raid, that does not mean they do not deserve to have good gear. Raiders and PVPers need to stop thinking they are somehow better and, therefore entitled to more just because of the content they choose to participate in.
    the devs put rewards in content raiders get raid gear pvpers get pvp gear....dimensioneers get building blocks and fancy relic premium dim boxes to go crazy over. no one type of player is more skilled than the next just have different skillsets. if you dont raid you neither deserve raid gear nor need it kill raid bosses cuz you dont do that. its not entitlement its common sense.
    Last edited by Marana tha; 04-18-2017 at 09:29 PM.

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