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Thread: Patron that does not raid

  1. #16
    Rift Disciple Samuraii's Avatar
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    makerofwidows, you seem to be contradicting yourself.
    You say TD is easy mode, anyone can pug it and get awesome loot.
    So whats the points having awesome gear if raids are easy?

    Why do you need those extra stats?

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stihl View Post
    I don't get what's with the safe space, everyone-deserves-everything attitude.

    Doing X content gives Y rewards.

    In order to obtain Y rewards, you have to do X content.

    It's really that simple.

    And the whole "elitest" angle doesn't work anymore. 80 groups cleared TD on launch day. You can literally sleepwalk through the place in 40 minutes worst case scenario.
    TD currently requires:

    1-Tank that knows what, and where, the key binds for their ST and AoE taunts are, and if/when to use them. And their mashing attack button.
    2-Decent AoE healers
    2-DPS
    5-Potatoes (can be baked, boiled, fried or even mashed - on rare occasions you can settle for potato salad)
    All-Have the ability to move out of anything red on the floor as quick as possible.

    Note: You can even add in a Tank healer and drop one of the potatoes if the tank is having difficulty staying alive.

    Note #2: The potato remark wasn't intended to be derogatory, but rather merely a representation that "uber" DPS isn't required.

    TL;DR - If one doesn't wish to stretch themselves in becoming better, that's like saying I wanna keep flipping burgers for the rest of my life at the local burger joint, but somehow believe you're entitled to get the income of the Owner. To get the income of the owner, you first have to take on all the headaches, learning and risks that owner had to go through, and will continue to go through.
    Dimples Warrior Tank * If she flashes her dimples at you, it may cause pleasurable blindness.
    Dweia Rogue Tank * Nothing seems to express happiness quite as much as purring.
    Laurie Cleric Tank * Life without Love, is like chocolate cake made without sugar.
    The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits. - Unknown

  3. #18
    Plane Touched Dimples's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Samuraii View Post
    makerofwidows, you seem to be contradicting yourself.
    You say TD is easy mode, anyone can pug it and get awesome loot.
    So whats the points having awesome gear if raids are easy?

    Why do you need those extra stats?
    The purpose of the "extra stats" are NOT to do the current, previous or easier content. The purpose, as it has been for more than a decade in MMO's, is that it is necessary in order to take on the next and more challenging content.
    Dimples Warrior Tank * If she flashes her dimples at you, it may cause pleasurable blindness.
    Dweia Rogue Tank * Nothing seems to express happiness quite as much as purring.
    Laurie Cleric Tank * Life without Love, is like chocolate cake made without sugar.
    The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits. - Unknown

  4. #19
    Rift Disciple Samuraii's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dimples View Post
    The purpose of the "extra stats" are NOT to do the current, previous or easier content. The purpose, as it has been for more than a decade in MMO's, is that it is necessary in order to take on the next and more challenging content.
    TD is the only raid we got, there is no "challenging content" in game atm.
    I heard of people going in with greens and completed it.
    So again, why do you need extra stats when everything is easy?

  5. #20
    Ascendant Gilgad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Samuraii View Post
    TD is the only raid we got, there is no "challenging content" in game atm.
    I heard of people going in with greens and completed it.
    So again, why do you need extra stats when everything is easy?
    You need the hit for the next raid.

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  6. #21
    Rift Disciple Samuraii's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilgad View Post
    You need the hit for the next raid.
    Hit for next raid is a fair argument.
    But never the stats, or raid gear should be exclusive to raiders.

    I been a raider back in wow, back then, a top guild managed to clear naxx in previous xpac gear, when that did happen, it proved to all of us that skill is more important than gear. And those needing the gear upgrade was average players who couldnt down a boss.

    My point is, average player are in need of gear more than skilled players.

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by zoxfire View Post
    Don't really care just saying here if you are a patron who does not raid you can not upgrade any sparkle gear that you get random after 125 zone events wtf lol
    then why do you need the upgraded gear?

    whats the point?

    do you really need 2000 hit to kill squirrels in Tempest Bay?
    "flurpphbtphbtpsplurrrrrtpoootis"
    a.k.a. slap matt

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Samuraii View Post
    makerofwidows, you seem to be contradicting yourself.
    You say TD is easy mode, anyone can pug it and get awesome loot.
    So whats the points having awesome gear if raids are easy?

    Why do you need those extra stats?
    The gear that drops in TD is not for TD it is for the next tier, an actual raid not the introduction. It will have dps checks and mechanics that punish positioning. as it stands it is relatively difficult to die on a TD run if the group possesses even the slightest raid awareness

  9. #24
    Telaran
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    Quote Originally Posted by Samuraii View Post
    Hit for next raid is a fair argument.
    But never the stats, or raid gear should be exclusive to raiders.

    I been a raider back in wow, back then, a top guild managed to clear naxx in previous xpac gear, when that did happen, it proved to all of us that skill is more important than gear. And those needing the gear upgrade was average players who couldnt down a boss.

    My point is, average player are in need of gear more than skilled players.
    They used to have that. Gear that had the same stats, or even better, than X tier raid, minus the hit. And guess what? People then kept complaining that they couldn't get into the raid groups. Or even if they did, that they were crap at it because they couldn't, well, HIT anything. (Additionally with the release of SFP, they've tried to move away from having multiple sets of gear, because that takes even longer to acquire, by only needing one set for everything. Trying to reintroduce that is counterproductive, and would inevitably lead right back to the same arguments as before.)

    So as a player you need to make a decision on whether you're a raider, or not. Be it casual, or hardcore, or whatever. But if you're a casual raider, and you're complaining that you don't have the best stuff after 2 weeks: stop yer crying, no one wants to hear it. Near release, the typical casual raid would clear maybe 1-2 bosses per raid, per week. In a 20man raid, that WAS only 2 loot drops. That means it would take a minimum of 10 weeks for everyone to get one drop, ASSUMING that RNG was on your side and something always dropped that someone could use... no duplicates just to be runebroken, or a drop for a class that wasn't in the raid.

    Kitting out your entire raid group in preparation for the next tier could take months. And yes, it WAS a REQUIREMENT. Previous iterations of the raids had such massive checks that you simply could NOT clear past the second boss until most of the raid had drops from the first boss; and so on for the third and fourth. - So massive that the some of the first world clears on bosses ended exactly at Enrage, with the entire party dead; all thanks to dots. (Eventually, all the raids had bosses altered, mechanics made a little easier, and so fourth, so more and more people could actually complete them).

    For those of you who have no idea: top end game DPS in vanilla was only 3300, and tanks were lucky to reach 20k HP. Those items were a necessity for the task at hand, and most certainly a requirement for future content. - You have no idea just how "easy mode" things are now with no enrage timers and not even needing a dedicated healer in dungeons.

    The power creep with each additional expansion has continuously made everything more and more bloated and powerful, while additionally, things have been getting easier and easier. - There are reasons for this, and some of those reasons are exactly why some have left. Conversely, it's precisely for those said reasons, that Trion has made an announcement about their proposed "hardcore" servers that they'd like to implement somewhere down the pipeline.

    But the point still stands: If you arn't doing X content, you don't deserve or require X gear. There is NO reason, whatsoever, that someone who only ever does crafting, IA's, dailies, trolling in chat, and lounging around in TB sitting on their ***, should have the same gear as someone who spends hours, or even months, progressing through the highest tiered content with 10-20 other players (whereby whether they can even get the gear themselves is dependent on the GROUP'S ABILITY, and not just their own) to EARN that gear, that is a NECESSITY for the next tier.

    It's called progression; and Risk vs Reward.

    You do quests, and open world stuff... From there you went to chronicles... From there you went to normal dungeons and rare mobs.. On to Expert Dungeons... On to (when it still meant anything) Master Mode Dungeons and tier 1 10man Slivers.... On to t1 20man Raids... on to t2 10man Slivers... t2 20man raids... t3 Slivers... t3 Raids.

    Raids are (or were) Risky. You had the risk of failure, you had the risk of loss of time by no advancement due to X or Y reason. You had the risk of getting pissed off at friends and guildies; which in turn had the risk of driving your guild into the ground, or causing people to give up and leave. In taking on those risks, and others, and triumphing over them, you get better rewards, because you went through more hell and headaches to earn them. - There is a reason why casuals and pugs always started up AFTER the raiders already had **** on farm. Bosses got nerfed; mechanics got out to everyone, so everyone knew the tried-and-true strats, and followed them like clockwork. They didn't do a damn thing more than the equivalent of "Copy and Paste." (To prove my point further, go browse the Guides section, and see just how many people keep asking for links and posts for new guides; instead of experimenting, parsing, and finding **** out for themselves - some of these buggars can't even be bothered reading the tooltips).

    Never touched a raid? Then you shouldn't have better than that Expert Dungeon gear; it isn't a requirement for anything at that point, or lower. - All you're wanting is to see bigger numbers scrolling across your screen.

    If your complaint isn't nice big pretty numbers, but dieing in open world content, then you're doing something else fundamentally wrong. - It's not gear dependent. You either don't have a proper soloing spec; some self healing, potions, whatever, or are trying to take on more than you can chew.

    If your complaint is simply "But i don't have it, therefore i want it" then you need to do what is necessary to earn it. If you arn't willing to put the effort in to earn an item that is locked behind X wall, then you shouldn't have it.

    Just as if you never bother to put the effort in to learn how to paint, you won't make the next Mona Lisa.

    Now yes, and again, things are STUPIDLY easy right now by comparison to what they were, and takes MUCH less time to acquire them. Even more so considering you only need the one set of gear for every role, nor need multiple sets of foci. So there is zero reason for you NOT to have the highest content available in the game, concurrently, besides just complaining about not having it. You literally have no barriers, besides laziness. There isn't even a time-lock factor in play right now, beyond Charges; which you can simply buy more of as often as you want.

    As for the comment about clearing previous content with previous gear... You're STILL overleveled, and thus overpowered for that content. Go ahead. Mentor down to 50, strip off all of your legendaries, put on some old green lvl 50 equipment. I guarantee you, you will still have more HP and do more DPS then we did while it was current. - That's not even considering the changes to the classes that have happened between then and now, which is/was significant. And it doesn't make for a great comparison either. Different games, different mechanics, different classes and abilities, different scripted data. Like trying to compare an 80man raid in EQ to Rifts 10man Slivers. - However, being I've never touched WoW, I will concede that I could be reading this incorrectly. I will agree, 100%, that skill > gear. But that all depends on the stat weights and other factors, as eventually there is a point that no matter your skill level, you simply will not be better than X other person in Y spec with/without outside influences. This is only comparable in equivalent situations (same level, same gear, same spec, same/no disconnects, etc etc).

    My point is, average player are in need of gear more than skilled players.
    Dead DPS, is no dps. Having gear does not make up for lack of skill, remember? Put forth the effort to improve, so you're at least above-average. Work towards that end game content, progress, take the risks, and earn it.

  10. #25
    Rift Master Aranka's Avatar
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    You deserve what you work for and succeed at.

    be it raid gear, that special minion, a piece of wardrobe, some rare artifact or 100k plat..

    Do the effort, succeed... and get the reward. Nothing more, nothing less.

    The only thing that perhaps makes a point noting... Everybody should have a chance at trying to do everything.

    Without people talking them down for not being good enough aka up to their standards.. j

    Who decides what is good enough... raid is a group thing. Top DPS is nice, but not the only thing... Rather have somebody doing slightly above average but staying alive, than somebody doing top DPS for 1 minute in a 5 minute fight and lying dead on the ground for the other 4 minutes..

    A lot is relative.. and good enough is if you in the end succeed..... and for raids/instances, that is as a GROUP, not solo.

    I still remember a fight in which 3 of the 5 had died, the other 2 had no rez, one was being harb, the other chloro/el 61.. chloro was keeping both tank pet and at times harb alive.. fight lasted perhaps 10 minutes longer than usual... but they finished it with 2... because as a group, they stuck together and it didn't matter who did most damage or best heals.. they were in as a group.

    One sidenote...

    Back in the days, certain gear came from raids only. So you had to do the raid to get that gear and that look. Now, the look is usually gotten through different items having the same look.. so that's not much of a point anymore.

    Gear stats... I'm fine with raid gear being BIS and having to do the raid to get that piece of gear.
    I would also be fine with one or 2 pieces of gear being BIS and available through something else NOT being raid. Same way a casual non raider would be forced to learn and participate in raids to get those raid-bound items, so can a raider be forced to do something non-raid and participate in open world to get that open world-bound item.. be it Bis or a specific look, an achieve ...

    Most raid gear BIS, one or two BIS pieces from open world... and all other open world as usual... basic good gear, with higher tier stuff if you do more difficult stuff... like the open world raid bosses once were in Dendrome... and those who remember... hell... I enjoyed that a lot.. 120 players in one room... all busy with surviving, rezzing and trying to kill that one big badass....

    Or remember Volan when he just came out??
    Last edited by Aranka; 04-19-2017 at 05:55 AM.

  11. #26
    Ral
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    Quote Originally Posted by makerofwidows View Post
    ...we are not talking about relics here were talking about synergy crystal set bonuses and stat upgrades.
    I will grant you the synergy point is important, but it also important for non-raid as well, if you saw a person in your dungeon with no synergy crystal, you would rip him apart. So it is just as important for the non-raider.

    The stat upgrade is 15% at best, more significant then the 1-2% we have seen from recent relics, but not an insurmountable difference.

    Quote Originally Posted by makerofwidows View Post
    ...yet to witness a single raid tier where players had upgrades from the previous tier to complete hardmodes???? ...iGP HM
    Afaik iRoTP is not going to be hard more.

    Quote Originally Posted by makerofwidows View Post
    ...ungolok...jinoscoth
    And yet all these were cleared with prior tier gear almost immediately, most people couldn't get past them not because the lacked gear upgrades, but because they lacked the basic skills to perform mechanics, the only got past them later when they acquired enough gear or the encounter was nerfed such that they could ignore or mitigate certain mechanics to the point of triviality.

    Quote Originally Posted by makerofwidows View Post
    you seem to confuse prior tier upgrades with current tier upgrades ie people dont need upgraded TD gear to clear TD but are meant to have a gear progression...
    People should be able to use the gear guaranteed available for the next tier, the only pieces are those on the store, requiring drops or upgrades that rely on randomness is poor design, which appears to be the reality. At the very least I don't expect iRoTP to require any more then started drops from TD to complete if you are capable of performing the mechanics. Especially if they are targeting it for completion by the top 25% of player population.

    Quote Originally Posted by makerofwidows View Post
    people who dont raid should be thankful they're getting access to those giant stat stick helm and ranged for doing littler more than a crafting rift group run. thats an extra 100 hit and massive luxury stats they dont need
    Actually, raiders should be happy they get it, these should be exclusive items only to crafting, because non-crafters don't deserve them as they never did the crafting required to get them.

    Quote Originally Posted by makerofwidows View Post
    out in the open world.
    Historically expert rifts, raid rifts, hunt rifts, nightmare rifts, dungeons, master mode dungeons, open world raid bosses, and mid-expansion open world areas in addition to simple farming make the efficiency granted by increased stats highly desirable even in non-raid environments, we can likely expect similar increased non-raid content to be released in the future. Everytime someone in crossevents spams a LFM for anything non-related with raid level hit requirement or raid level dps requirement, my point is proven.

    Quote Originally Posted by makerofwidows View Post
    the devs put rewards in content raiders get raid gear pvpers get pvp gear....dimensioneers get building blocks and fancy relic premium dim boxes to go crazy over. no one type of player is more skilled than the next just have different skillsets. if you dont raid you neither deserve raid gear nor need it kill raid bosses cuz you dont do that. its not entitlement its common sense.
    I agree with you, ideally we should have a system where gear is only useful in the system it is awarded in, there should be separate gear sets that function only in the associated environment for raid, dungeons, warfronts, chronicles, IA, open world pvp, open world rifts, zone events, crafting, dimensions, etc. But alas people asked for less gear and Trion wants greater coverage of player activity across content, so Trion slowly pushes toward that end and we fall into the system required for that which necessitates a shared progression system across all activities and player types.
    Last edited by Ral; 04-19-2017 at 04:44 PM.

  12. #27
    Ral
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilgad View Post
    You need the hit for the next raid.
    You can get the hit from the drops/sparkle boxes/elsewhere, this thread is about upgrades specifically.

    Quote Originally Posted by fantasyy View Post
    then why do you need the upgraded gear?

    whats the point?

    do you really need 2000 hit to kill squirrels in Tempest Bay?
    If Tempest Bay is the entirety of non-raid content, then I guess it is appropriate for people not doing TD to get TD drops and upgrade gear for not TD/TB content.

    P.S. I know you are trolling because there are only rats in TB.

    Quote Originally Posted by Xethx View Post
    Near release, the typical casual raid would clear maybe 1-2 bosses per raid, per week. In a 20man raid, that WAS only 2 loot drops.
    GSB and RoS bosses dropped 3 items each, final bosses dropped 4 (two relics, two epics), GSB had trash drops, RoS had 3 minibosses that dropped an item each. HK had bosses that dropped two items and a 100% guaranteed upgrade part on many of them, it also had trash drops and considerable trash to farm. All of these could be assigned to avoid duplicate rewards to the same person. Also the mark drops were far more generous proportional to the cost of mark gear. Gear was far far easier to obtain from raids in vanilla then it is even in TD.

    Quote Originally Posted by Xethx View Post
    For those of you who have no idea: top end game DPS in vanilla was only 3300...
    The second (fire side) boss of ID, Ituziel, required 40k raid dps to kill, generally you want you DPS doing at least 4k dps each, this was generally considered mid-tier dps.

    Quote Originally Posted by Xethx View Post
    Never touched a raid? Then you shouldn't have better than that Expert Dungeon gear; it isn't a requirement for anything at that point, or lower.
    You are straw manning, this topic isn't about required gear, it is specifically about upgrades, which aren't required for any content, even raid content, therefore by your logic not even raiders should get upgrades since they aren't required to do raids.

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ral View Post
    I will grant you the synergy point is important, but it also important for non-raid as well, if you saw a person in your dungeon with no synergy crystal, you would rip him apart. So it is just as important for the non-raider.
    You clearly don't pug many experts. There is nearly always someone without earrings, any essences, synergy crystal struggling to break 80k dps. I practically never see anyone complain. When I tank experts the dps almost always do less or equal dps combined than I can do solo

  14. #29
    Telaran
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ral View Post
    You can get the hit from the drops/sparkle boxes/elsewhere, this thread is about upgrades specifically.

    GSB and RoS bosses dropped 3 items each, final bosses dropped 4 (two relics, two epics), GSB had trash drops, RoS had 3 minibosses that dropped an item each. HK had bosses that dropped two items and a 100% guaranteed upgrade part on many of them, it also had trash drops and considerable trash to farm. All of these could be assigned to avoid duplicate rewards to the same person. Also the mark drops were far more generous proportional to the cost of mark gear. Gear was far far easier to obtain from raids in vanilla then it is even in TD.

    The second (fire side) boss of ID, Ituziel, required 40k raid dps to kill, generally you want you DPS doing at least 4k dps each, this was generally considered mid-tier dps.

    You are straw manning, this topic isn't about required gear, it is specifically about upgrades, which aren't required for any content, even raid content, therefore by your logic not even raiders should get upgrades since they aren't required to do raids.

    If you wanna go using GSB as an example, Fine.


    GREENSCALE'S BLIGHT [Raid]
    * Blightleaf Hexmaster's Noxious Cloud can no longer critically hit.
    * Blightleaf Guard's Wicked Vine can no longer critically hit.
    * All general population mobs' standard attacks can now critically hit.
    * Made small adjustments to boss enrage timers.
    * Raid bosses in Greenscale's Blight have new items added to their drop tables.
    * Raid bosses in Greenscale's Blight now drop more items per kill than they previously did.
    DUNGEONS AND RAIDS
    * Over 100 new item drops have been added to Expert Dungeons and Raids!

    GREENSCALE'S BLIGHT [Raid]
    * Duke Letareus, Infiltrator Johlen, and Oracle Aleria now drop 3 items when killed.
    * Prince Hylas now drops 4 items when killed.
    * Greenscale now drops 4 items when killed, and additional Relic items have been added to the possible drop list.
    * Resolved a rare edge case where the instance would crash during a raid wipe-triggered Lord Greenscale reset.
    As I had said originally... Near release, they only dropped 1 item per kill, per boss. Just as you are incorrect on my calculation of end game vanilla DPS. - You can argue that, whether it be dummy parses, raid parses, or a combined average value. Take a guess at which I'm using if you wish. I know what I'm talking about.

    What I can tell you, is in that instance of ID that you listed, you COULD NOT get over 4k without the relic armor pieces. Even the best souls in the game at the time, which changed over the course of ID to PF release. - So, if these upgrades are unnecessary, yet your group REQUIRES 4k dps outta each person, then they HAD to have said relics. They were a necessity.

    If you want to take a different approach... Certain upgrades are still a requirement, even if not to advance through the next bosses, or the next tier of raids. If they arn't needed as stat sticks, then they're required to give people something to do and work towards... To keep them feeling like they are making some form of advancement, and to stick with their TEAM while those whom are behind are still trying to get the pieces they need, so EVERYONE can go into the next tier. -- People get tired of waiting, they get bored... They leave. As a group you rely on every other player to do their specific tasks, to be there on time, etc. If both your tanks get tired of waiting around and decide to go elsewhere... then your entire group is borked and suddenly none of the group can advance until you fill that spot, be it by getting another player to fill it, or having to gear a different raider cause it's easier to fill the dps slot.

  15. #30
    Rift Disciple Samuraii's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xethx View Post
    As for the comment about clearing previous content with previous gear... You're STILL overleveled, and thus overpowered for that content. Go ahead. Mentor down to 50, strip off all of your legendaries, put on some old green lvl 50 equipment. I guarantee you, you will still have more HP and do more DPS then we did while it was current. - That's not even considering the changes to the classes that have happened between then and now, which is/was significant. And it doesn't make for a great comparison either. Different games, different mechanics, different classes and abilities, different scripted data. Like trying to compare an 80man raid in EQ to Rifts 10man Slivers. - However, being I've never touched WoW, I will concede that I could be reading this incorrectly. I will agree, 100%, that skill > gear. But that all depends on the stat weights and other factors, as eventually there is a point that no matter your skill level, you simply will not be better than X other person in Y spec with/without outside influences. This is only comparable in equivalent situations (same level, same gear, same spec, same/no disconnects, etc etc).
    I think you misunderstood my post. Back in wow, when raids were still new to many players, before rift and many other mmo's, there was this raid lvl 80 called naxxramas, it wasnt the hardest raid introduced, but it was hard, had difficult mechanics that required every player to participate, meaning each player no matter class had an assignment in each boss, if 1 failed, the raid would wipe.

    People complained as usual how difficult the raid was, and that they werent geared enough to clear it. A top guild then stepped in with previous xpansion gear (meaning lvl 70 gear) tottally ungeared for the raid and managed to clear it.
    When that did happen, it proved to the whole mmos and skills is more important than gear.
    Did that raid have dps checks? Yes as all raids, it had dps check, enrage timer, boss hitting more than the tank could take etc. So how could that guild clear that raid with previous xpac gear?
    Skill.

    If you find a raid that is to difficult for you, dont focus on gear, gear is going the easy mode. Instead focus on your skills, learn to play your class to its fullest.
    Last edited by Samuraii; 04-20-2017 at 06:19 PM.

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