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  Click here to go to the first Rift Team post in this thread.   Thread: STOP BUYING LOCKBOXES

  1. #1
    Shadowlander
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    Default STOP BUYING LOCKBOXES

    The more money you guys give Trion for stupid RNG boxes, the more they will lock cool stuff in them in the future. If we prefer to buy mounts and **** straight up with credits, they will make future mounts available for credits.

    Trion wants your money, they dont care how they get it, they'll use the most effective method so just stop buying them.

    Save yourself now and your future self and everyone else the hassle that is RNG boxes and stop buying them.

  2. #2
    Plane Walker Kojiden's Avatar
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    I call them gambling boxes because that's what they are. People need to not buy them. Not only is gambling immoral but the house usually wins.

  3. #3
    Rift Disciple
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    For mounts and other fluff I can agree with this thread. They should be on the store for direct purchase. Bound and Unbound

  4.   Click here to go to the next Rift Team post in this thread.   #4
    Director of Community Relations TrionBrasse's Avatar
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    There is discussion about lockboxes in every game that offers them... and that is most MMOGs. In an era where people are less likely to support subscriptions en masse, they fill a revenue role and are supported by those who have more spare cash than the average to spend.

    Lockboxes are exciting for some folks, and they are certainly not for everyone. The cool items within are always meant to be very rare. That is part of the appeal to those buying lockboxes.

    I don't think it is fair, however, to characterize the need to make a game pay for itself as a "money grab." Ain't none of us here driving luxury cars or buying villas in the Caribbean. Those who buy lockboxes provide significant support to the cost of keeping RIFT in development, and this also means that we don't have to increase prices elsewhere, or explore yet more ways to monetize. In other words, the lockboxes keep prices down for all of us.

    We have definitely experimented (and other games have as well) with simply selling mounts on the marketplace; this never, ever nets the same revenue as offering the coolest looking ones in lockboxes.

    In due time, these rare items (or alternate skins thereof) usually make it into game via other means. I bought my beloved Glowing Amethyst Ki Rin during the Thanksgiving rotating mount sale in 2015, for instance.
    We use the current lockbox mounts, "Void Drake" and "Fae Yule Levitation" as prizes for contests and giveaways as well.

    No one is forcing anyone to buy "fluff items," like pretty mounts in lockboxes, in order to play the game. As you'll recell, we also tried to put a small price on items of practical value in game and have been roundly criticized for doing that - we're doing our best to balance free play against revenue needs. Gotta keep the lights on in Telara!

    Brasse
    Last edited by TrionBrasse; 12-22-2016 at 02:26 PM.

  5. #5
    Ascendant DarkDaemon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TrionBrasse View Post
    There is discussion about lockboxes in every game that offers them... and that is most MMOGs. In an era where people are less likely to support subscriptions en masse, they fill a revenue role and are supported by those who have more spare cash than the average to spend.

    Lockboxes are exciting for some folks, and they are certainly not for everyone. The cool items within are always meant to be very rare. That is part of the appeal to those buying lockboxes.

    I don't think it is fair, however, to characterize the need to make a game pay for itself as a "money grab." Ain't none of us here driving luxury cars or buying villas in the Caribbean. Those who buy lockboxes provide significant support to the cost of keeping RIFT in development, and this also means that we don't have to increase prices elsewhere, or explore yet more ways to monetize. In other words, the lockboxes keep prices down for all of us.

    We have definitely experimented (and other games have as well) with simply selling mounts on the marketplace; this never, ever nets the same revenue as offering the coolest looking ones in lockboxes.

    In due time, these rare items (or alternate skins thereof) usually make it into game via other means. I bought my beloved Glowing Amethyst Ki Rin during the Thanksgiving rotating mount sale in 2015, for instance.
    We use the current lockbox mounts, "Void Drake" and "Fae Yule Levitation" as prizes for contests and giveaways as well.

    No one is forcing anyone to buy "fluff items," like pretty mounts in lockboxes, in order to play the game. As you'll recell, we also tried to put a small price on items of practical value in game and have been roundly criticized for doing that - we're doing our best to balance free play against revenue needs. Gotta keep the lights on in Telara!

    Brasse
    I understand the profitability of having exclusive rare fluff items locked behind troves, but I feel that they should really be less polarized between BIG WIN and nothing.

    A random planar fragment and some currency seem to be the most common drop these days. The fragment is generally not useful, and the currency too abstract and small to appeal to us. Other drops, like planar ward gear and potions, are too dated and small for a player to care about it.

    Instead of feeling either extremely disappointed because they didn't get a mount, or very happy that they did, there should be a middle ground. One system that I like are Realm of the Mad God's mystery boxes. These RNG boxes clearly state what they can contain and the lowest value item in them exceed the cost of the box. This doesn't have to be the case, but under no circumstances should a Rift lockbox contain nothing more than some open world currency and an endurance potion worth 10 plat. They should never make a player feel that they've spent money on nothing.

    There should always be a service item or other small, but useful consolation prize in a lockbox. They should somewhat approach the cost/rarity of the lockbox. There should also be intermediate prizes, like a pack of 6 essence unsocketers, that exceed the price of the lockbox but aren't quite as exciting as a mount.
    Last edited by DarkDaemon; 12-22-2016 at 07:50 PM.

  6. #6
    Shield of Telara
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    Once Rift went Buy to Play again lock boxes should have been abolished.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rodarin View Post
    Once Rift went Buy to Play again lock boxes should have been abolished.
    The game isnt buy to play, it has paid DLC which is fine.

    Brasse, as for your response. Firstly, thank you for responding, always wanted the pleasure of that little dev tag next to one of my threads.
    ^.^

    Secondly, i can understand the need for money, if my statement read as Trion grabbing for cash, i apologize, that's not how it was supposed to come across. Of course you need money for development! 100% Understandable, any company does. Might i make the suggestion of posting a complete list of every item within the lockboxes and the exact percentage chance of winning? That way, anyone buying one never has any right to complain. Of course at the moment they sort of dont as it does clearly state "chance at X mount" however for even more clarity, posting the percentage chance of getting each item really does then mean that the gamblers can gamble and who knows, if i had a few hundred credits lying around and the mount was 10% chance, i'd probably give it a go and i try my best to stay away from gambling!

    Looking forward to the next live stream!

    -Alphabelle

  8. #8
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    Several Eastern countries have either outlawed gambling boxes, treated them exactly the same as online gambling or regulated them as to publishing exact odds. Since online gambling is illegal in America the MMO world is one or two lawsuits away from the disappearance of blind lock boxes.

  9. #9
    Fia
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    Quote Originally Posted by TrionBrasse View Post
    There is discussion about lockboxes in every game that offers them... and that is most MMOGs. In an era where people are less likely to support subscriptions en masse, they fill a revenue role and are supported by those who have more spare cash than the average to spend.

    Lockboxes are exciting for some folks, and they are certainly not for everyone. The cool items within are always meant to be very rare. That is part of the appeal to those buying lockboxes.

    I don't think it is fair, however, to characterize the need to make a game pay for itself as a "money grab." Ain't none of us here driving luxury cars or buying villas in the Caribbean. Those who buy lockboxes provide significant support to the cost of keeping RIFT in development, and this also means that we don't have to increase prices elsewhere, or explore yet more ways to monetize. In other words, the lockboxes keep prices down for all of us.

    We have definitely experimented (and other games have as well) with simply selling mounts on the marketplace; this never, ever nets the same revenue as offering the coolest looking ones in lockboxes.

    In due time, these rare items (or alternate skins thereof) usually make it into game via other means. I bought my beloved Glowing Amethyst Ki Rin during the Thanksgiving rotating mount sale in 2015, for instance.
    We use the current lockbox mounts, "Void Drake" and "Fae Yule Levitation" as prizes for contests and giveaways as well.

    No one is forcing anyone to buy "fluff items," like pretty mounts in lockboxes, in order to play the game. As you'll recell, we also tried to put a small price on items of practical value in game and have been roundly criticized for doing that - we're doing our best to balance free play against revenue needs. Gotta keep the lights on in Telara!

    Brasse
    It would be really cool if you could implement some sort of system that allows you to get the item you want, e.g. the mount from the mount lockboxes, to 100% after a certain amount of them have been bought. Just as an example: with every mount lockbox bought, the chance in % of getting the mount increases by x%, so that when you've spent like 20€ on those lockboxes, the chance will be 100%. To me, this would be a fair implementation and I think ppl wouldn't be calling it rip-off, if such a system would be implemented. Other games also implement systems like this.
    Last edited by Fia; 12-22-2016 at 03:45 PM.
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  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alphabelle View Post
    The game isnt buy to play, it has paid DLC which is fine.

    Brasse, as for your response. Firstly, thank you for responding, always wanted the pleasure of that little dev tag next to one of my threads.
    ^.^

    Secondly, i can understand the need for money, if my statement read as Trion grabbing for cash, i apologize, that's not how it was supposed to come across. Of course you need money for development! 100% Understandable, any company does. Might i make the suggestion of posting a complete list of every item within the lockboxes and the exact percentage chance of winning? That way, anyone buying one never has any right to complain. Of course at the moment they sort of dont as it does clearly state "chance at X mount" however for even more clarity, posting the percentage chance of getting each item really does then mean that the gamblers can gamble and who knows, if i had a few hundred credits lying around and the mount was 10% chance, i'd probably give it a go and i try my best to stay away from gambling!

    Looking forward to the next live stream!

    -Alphabelle
    Semantics. To do something that hasnt been around for 2 years you have to pay money. This isnt like a subscription option that gives you perks, you MUST buy (in one form or another) the DLC to play that portion, and with a price tag more (before it went on sale) than the original box price of this game I will use my semantics and call it buy to play.

  11. #11
    Rift Disciple Liltizzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TrionBrasse View Post
    There is discussion about lockboxes in every game that offers them... and that is most MMOGs. In an era where people are less likely to support subscriptions en masse, they fill a revenue role and are supported by those who have more spare cash than the average to spend.
    <snip>
    Gotta keep the lights on in Telara!

    Brasse
    I completely agree and happily buy my expansions and fluff items. I am a revenue contributing ninny. I don't believe that gaming is a free or not-for-profit enterprise.

    But for goodness sakes - I hate this whole gambling without any idea of whether its 1 out of 10, 1 out of 100, 1 out of 1,000,000,000 boxes chance. It is so frustrating to me. As a result, I've just had to make my own personal choice to not participate in the box purchases. Rest assured that anytime you put that special mount up for sale, I will be there to make that purchase. But if you bury it deep within a random box, I'm just one player who can't (won't) purchase.

  12. #12
    Ral
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    I would maybe agree with this thread if not for the fact that everything from the boxes, especially the grand prize, is available without the gamble.

    I have purchase from the AH a large number of the Crabnarok Lock Boxes (as in to the order of a thousand, which is still a pretty sad sample size) and found as have others that the mounts are at or very close to a 1% chance. I purchase these with spare plat and was able to make a profit at points when the value of each box dropped below a certain plat value, but as for actual lock boxes, I have purchased very few, so I am mostly just extrapolating that the drop rates are the same, but several others have generally agreed with me on this 1% chance.

    At those odds one would need something like 70k plat to have a reasonable chance to obtain a mount using REX for the boxes. These mounts are almost never over 30k, and over time drop in price exponentially to below 5k. The Crabnaroks from NT on Greybriar I have placed for 2.5k and they still don't sell.

    This means if you buy a few REX for $30, sell it for plat (or trade it for the mount directly), you could buy the mount from a player with a 100% chance. So Trion has in fact provided a means to obtain a guaranteed mount for a player decided value.

    I doubt these boxes are going anywhere, however I will agree I would like to see some increase to the general value of the lowest prize, possibly focusing on low selling and preferably infinitely useful or otherwise tradeable prizes so there isn't a "well that was a complete waste of money" feeling that undermines future potential sales of the boxes.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Liltizzy View Post
    I completely agree and happily buy my expansions and fluff items. I am a revenue contributing ninny. I don't believe that gaming is a free or not-for-profit enterprise.

    But for goodness sakes - I hate this whole gambling without any idea of whether its 1 out of 10, 1 out of 100, 1 out of 1,000,000,000 boxes chance. It is so frustrating to me. As a result, I've just had to make my own personal choice to not participate in the box purchases. Rest assured that anytime you put that special mount up for sale, I will be there to make that purchase. But if you bury it deep within a random box, I'm just one player who can't (won't) purchase.
    there is NOTHING 'in' the box, when you open it an INDEPENDENT RNG spins and it pops up items based on the numbers it come sup with.

    It is theoretically possible that ZERO ultra rare items will be given away at all. Since every boxed opened is an independent event.

    Its called gamblers fallacy. People thing if the odds are 1 in a million and if there were 999999 boxes opened the next one MUST be the big winner. Not the case at all.

    Its 1 in whatever they have it ramped up to for that SINGULAR event.


    Thats why these are illegal in a lot of places because it really isnt even gambling because the odds arent 'true', nor can they be proofed out mathematically. Thats why they dont give odds, because they cant. They can maybe tell you the probability of a certain randomly generated number coming up and maybe give you what that entails and what else has to mesh to get the 'big' prize. But I suspect there are so many escalating links in the chain that leads to that ultimate prize that getting to it is nigh on impossible.

    Semi guess work on my part but would be willing to bet (see what I did there) that it isnt like there are a million numbers and the lowest of the low have a few dozen thousand and a top prize does have one singular number and top tier rewards have maybe 10-20 numbers each.

  14. #14
    Rift Chaser Letobrick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TrionBrasse View Post
    As you'll recell, we also tried to put a small price on items of practical value in game and have been roundly criticized for doing that - we're doing our best to balance free play against revenue needs. Gotta keep the lights on in Telara!
    With all due respect, this statement doesn't tell the whole story. The round table criticism didn't just happen because of items being charged, it was due to the timing of the announcements and the way they were implemented. Items were being charged with only two days notice being provided. And features were removed from players well after NMT was released and DLCs were purchased to access features they were expecting to have throughout the expansion.

    Making the expansion paid was also supposed to help alleviate these issues and present content in a vastly less irritating way, Lockboxes aside, I've been hard pressed to find much evidence of this happening, also considering that individual reward charges were also introduced into the game.

    We get that the Rift team isn't swimming in gold-pressed latinum, much like the rest of the player base and can't work "for free" at the end of the day. But wasn't making the expansion paid supposed to help address this?

  15. #15
    Rift Chaser Rivkah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TrionBrasse View Post
    No one is forcing anyone to buy "fluff items," like pretty mounts in lockboxes, in order to play the game. As you'll recell, we also tried to put a small price on items of practical value in game and have been roundly criticized for doing that - we're doing our best to balance free play against revenue needs. Gotta keep the lights on in Telara!

    Brasse
    I'd find this argument valid if only you didn't also place some of the best fragments in RNG lockboxes that are purchasable with credits. This allows whales to dump infinite money into getting lockboxes and therefore get the best tertiary stats in the game. This provides a tangible mechanical benefit to those players, in that they are able to do more DPS than everyone else because they could afford more lockboxes. I play video games to ESCAPE class disparities IRL, not have them rubbed in my face.

    With all due respect, I actually attended your F2P vs P2W panel at PAX Prime this year, and when you guys polled the audience about lockboxes everybody hated them, INCLUDING some of the devs on the panel itself. The response to this outcry of hatred for them was essentially "don't like 'em? stop buying them!" Fine, I stopped buying them entirely. I won't even buy the planar fragment boxes anymore because I can't stand what they represent.

    I find gating things such as fragments and epic mounts behind lockboxes without a disclosure of odds or a way of overcoming the RNG to be highly predatory for people with gambling addictions. One of my guildies dumped 400-500 dollars on lockboxes and didn't get the thing he was after. After CSR reporting it, they only gave him more lockboxes. This is like a AA member being given a handle of whiskey because he drank everything in his liquor cabinet.

    It's not healthy. There needs to be another way of eventually accruing enough currency or the odds scaling after opening <x> number of lockboxes so that this doesn't happen.
    Last edited by Rivkah; 12-22-2016 at 10:01 PM.

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