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  Click here to go to the first Rift Team post in this thread.   Thread: Why RIFT is going to die in 4.0 - compared to the big 3

  1. #226
    Plane Touched Doveblack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flashmemory View Post
    It is not sampling bias at all. Steam has no reason to sample bias therefore it is accurate meta data and it can be used accurately to show trends over time in total data sets which is what I meant by it being sampling data. Server logs are a more accurate approach to determine total population but even that can be skewed since the determinants can be skewed. If the determinants of active players, which is what we are looking for, is really just an email tied to an account and them logging in once a month it can be skewed by a scripted program to exactly do that which then the server log will mark as an active player. That can be done to make 100s if not 1000s of active players from a script.

    So again they have to sample even further to actually find active player trends. Exclude all under 61 , include players who log in more than 3 times a week for at least 2-4 hours etc. which means that they are sampling themselves and using that meta data to determine true active players.

    Considering the meta data from steam charts as useless and a sample bias is where you are wrong. It shows trends that are very important in determining why active players and player retention falls. But what is more useful is that it shows that they can get players back, many who are still hopeful that the game would actually be better than when they left. In the case of Rift it is becoming less and less hopeful over time.

    I only have my own opinion on how we can make "Rift Great Again." But I won't say I am the the only one who knows how. There are plenty of players who can make a difference and offer sound advice. The whole buy to play, pay to win, and convoluted system transitions have really put a dent in the popularity of the game. There is no doubt about that. However,a few things can be done that were done in the past to bring back Rift to somewhat better palatable terms with new players and returning players. One of the things they can bring back is vouchers so players can gear alts. This would at least keep players active longer. They can make reputation account bound. They can also look into making many things account bound like achievements and even artifact sets etc. There is so many thing they should do with 4.0 but as of now anyone who is investing in it is making a blind investment. If you tie the current class balance to what is happening with the souls in 4.0 it just seems like another expansion of class imbalances ahead. I haven't looked into much of 4.0. Being an older player personally I can't deal with grinding several different classes anymore to keep up with the FoTM motto so what really keeps me playing the game through the terrible periods of class development is player interaction. If many players that I know continue to leave I would probably leave as well since it really is one of the biggest things keeping me playing the game at the moment. Going to 10 man from 20 man content already seems like it would divide our guild as well.
    The sampling bias comes from the fact that NOT EVERYONE USES STEAM TO PLAY RIFT.

    Therefore you are only getting numbers of people playing Rift THROUGH STEAM. I spend tons of money on this game but i dont play it through Steam because there is no repair function in the Steam version.

    I have thousands of hours played in Rift.

    Oops by your count i dont even exist!

    The other issues with measuring real, unique, active players is solved with GRAPH DATA ANALYTICS which i brought up ages ago.

    As to the rest of your post, you do realize that there is a massive amount of FRAUD THAT COSTS GAME COMPANIES MILLIONS annually right? Trion and Valve both do their best to prevent it but that costs them MONEY TOO.

    Be angry at the gray market sellers and the people in game who exploit the system, screwing both Trion and PAYING CUSTOMERS by driving prices up.

    Wanna make gaming communities better? TELL PEOPLE TO BUY DIRECTLY FROM THE DEVELOPER OR A LEGIT RETAILER LIKE STEAM AND STOP BUYING STUFF FROM STOLEN GOODS MERCHANTS.

    Prices would drop.
    Last edited by Doveblack; 08-09-2016 at 05:19 AM.
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  2. #227
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wackywoo View Post
    The same people spinning the same old broken record..
    Since you're still commenting, I guess you like that song.
    Korvac the conquerer.

  3. #228
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    I never purchased the game through steam and the 30 plus players in guild didn't either. Using steam is a red herring.

  4. #229
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doveblack View Post
    NOT EVERYONE USES STEAM TO PLAY RIFT.
    Quote Originally Posted by MoMo1 View Post
    I never purchased the game through steam and the 30 plus players in guild didn't either. Using steam is a red herring.
    Though both of you are technically correct here, let me add my two cents.

    I don't play RIFT through Steam. What Flashmemory is trying to point out here, is that you can use the Steam charts as a way of watching trends in total number of players.

    Let's say RIFT had 10,000 active Steam players. When Trion decided to force players to purchase PW:W / Earring slots, you would see the Steam charts take a negative hit. Just the same as I'm sure it's gone up slightly with the SP announcement.

    You can use the Steam charts to roughly gauge how the player base is reacting. Yes, it's not an exact figure because not everyone plays through Steam, but it's a rough trend as to how the player base is looking.

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    But how many who used steam to buy the game, use it to launch the game afterwards? I do think too much emphasis is being used on Steam in a scramble to prove a hypothesis. And that is all it is.

  6. #231
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    Quote Originally Posted by MoMo1 View Post
    But how many who used steam to buy the game, use it to launch the game afterwards? I do think too much emphasis is being used on Steam in a scramble to prove a hypothesis. And that is all it is.
    Yes it is basically just an ad hoc justification.

    Lile Zojah said though, it DOES show a trend anong the people who play Rift through Steam.

    However, since i just built a new PC and attempted to back up my Rift using Steam, it looks like i just quit when SFP was announced but in reality i bought myself and two others the SFP deluxe edition lol.

    When i backed up Rift, Steam said it was corrupted because Steams backup feature is a piece of garbage. It thinks its corrupted because the version on Steam is never up to the latest patch. Same reason you cant EVER verify integrity of game files on Steam for a game that uses its own launcher. It will just redownload all 20GB.

    So, because of that BS i use the Glyph standalone launcher, and the timing coincides with the release of SFP. I didnt quit and i bought 3 deluxe packs, but according to Steam i just quit.
    Last edited by Doveblack; 08-09-2016 at 08:50 AM.
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  7. #232
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    It seems to me like this whole "Steam is able to point out trends" argument is based upon the assumption that a sizeable portion of the total playerbase uses steam, and that steam players tend to have the same behaviors as those who play without steam. If the sample size is too small or not reflective of the total population, you can't really go by that data.

    Based on my own experiences, I don't think the game is populated enough anymore for 800 players to be too small a sample size though, so the data probably is meaningful, even if we can't be sure. We should each poll our guilds to see what percentage of them are running on steam vs glyph, that'd give us a better idea.
    Last edited by Boxsmith; 08-09-2016 at 09:31 AM.

  8. #233
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zojah View Post

    You can use the Steam charts to roughly gauge how the player base is reacting. Yes, it's not an exact figure because not everyone plays through Steam, but it's a rough trend as to how the player base is looking.
    That would be true if we accept the assertion that Steam players are representative of the larger RIFT community. The fact is they (as a group) are not.

  9. #234
    Prophet of Telara Haruchai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doveblack View Post
    Its just as accurate as people giving actual numbers that they have no way of actually knowing. Get it yet? Rgi missed it too lol.

    "You have no idea" about population mapping or the financial health of the game if you're using the leaderboards of one world event to extrapolate a global Rift server population. What about guys like my guildies who didn't grind to participate in the event, but just bought all the stuff?

    People like that don't get counted in your population numbers guess, but they paid hundreds for one event. Oops i guess your counting method is not only incomplete, but distorts the spending pattern "data" that's also being fabricated in this thread.

    In short: show us some REAL population/financial data or you're just trying to create a false consensus logical fallacy(go google that). And google some stuff about population fitness landscapes mapped in phase space as well.
    No, you missed the point, in short, stop trying to sell untruths as factual. perhaps you could try showing "REAL" anything, anything at all. It would be a refreshing change to your rhetoric.

  10. #235
    Plane Touched Doveblack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haruchai View Post
    No, you missed the point, in short, stop trying to sell untruths as factual. perhaps you could try showing "REAL" anything, anything at all. It would be a refreshing change to your rhetoric.
    Answered you here already.


    http://forums.riftgame.com/general-d...ml#post5234995
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  11. #236
    Fia
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oldar View Post
    Allow me to disagree with your opinion in this post. I understand why you want smaller groups, in Rift's current state but this also an admittance that either the active players does not want to raid or the population have dropped too low in order to form groups for Raids.

    Both conclusions are bad for the game. It is always good to have choices. For me 40-man raids would be awesome. If you think that 20-man raids kill Rift you cannot be more wrong. With this logic, we should ask 3-man dungeons (1 Tank, 1 DPS, 1 Healer) and 5-man Raids. You can see that it will change everything from balance to actual game-play, tactics etc. Bring players back and give more options. Want a 10-man Raid, you have it. Do you want 20-man Raid there it is, you want 40-man there are too. Pick your favorite formation and enjoy.

    PS: if you create the program that counts active gamers in chat congratulations! :jumpclap:
    You did a very good job. It is always a good thing to have an estimation of these numbers.
    I understand your reasoning, but there is a reason WoW got rid of 40man raids so soon, just as there is a reason why 10man raids are a better choice for Rift than 20man, though tbh, I would prefer 15man raids.

    PS: Thanks. :D
    Last edited by Fia; 08-09-2016 at 03:38 PM.
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  12. #237
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    I would prefer 15 man as well. How many times do you want to raid 20 and end up with 15 or 18. Not everyone is hardcore and they do have lives. Does not mean they are not committed to raiding.

    Secondly, if you take Patron for six months or year Ex pac, as opposed to soul packs ,should be free as you are paying into game. If you cannot commit to that length of time then buy it stand alone. Just a suggestion like to make Patron more attractive.
    Last edited by MoMo1; 08-09-2016 at 06:54 PM.

  13. #238
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    DB refuses to accept the 5th anniversary celebration table as being representative, so not point debating stats with him. Steam accounts is unreliable but would show trends to a degree, but it may be somewhat distorted. Chat logs is a step up again, but has it's issues. The 5th anniversary event number is clearly the best stat we have, but DB will refuse to accept that as a representative measure because he (safe gender assumption here methinks) "knows better" so the trolling will continue ad infinitum.

    Clearly Trion is not going to tell us, but the silence probably gives you a hint, no? If there were a million active subs (say, logged in the last week/month/whatever period you think is relevant), then I am sure the number would be boasted. And yet it isn't... so we're not WoW-busting here, but I am hanging around for now.

    Point is DB, we all want a better game. The people who give no feedback and walk away are worse than the ones who whine a bit but throw in some valid points (which probably describes me best). The latter gives Trion something to work with, but some fanbois here want that contingent silenced because their eyeballs are offended... or something.

    Here's one thing everyone agrees on: we all want a good game and a healthy population. How about we focus on things that might get us there? That includes negative criticism (hopefully constructive) when "poor" decisions are made. Poor, that is, in the eyes of the commentator.
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  14. #239
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    I dont refuse to accept them. I simply pointed out that they exclude people who ought to count as well and they are not some scientific way of counting like people are pretending they are, and then extrapolating a bunch of ficticious numbers from.

    If you read my response to Haruchai in the other thread, you may begin to realize why software companies have to make some of the decisions that they do.

    A lot of companies do poorly because theyre mismanaged. However, in some cases, like the numerous examples i linked to, it is not the fault of the devs or management that they have to make business decisions and change monetization strategies.

    In some cases, they are responding to market forces that they are not directing, that people who buy stuff legit are not directing, but are being created by a toxic element within the playerbase itself.

    Yes, we all want a better game. Step one in order to accomplishing that goal would be to remove the underlying issue that is undermining a large portion of the gaming industry, right?

    Or at least acknowledging that the problem exists, instead of pretending that Trion wants to make people quit Rift and being out of touch with reality like so many of the complainers seem to be?
    Last edited by Doveblack; 08-09-2016 at 10:08 PM.
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  15. #240
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ocho View Post
    That would be true if we accept the assertion that Steam players are representative of the larger RIFT community. The fact is they (as a group) are not.
    I see, I see

    So uh...
    What percent would the steam player base represent?

    If only I could make it less obvious.. haha.

    But for real Ocho, we want those numbers bruh.

    Just the PvP numbers man.. cmon.. I need it, we need it, Rift needs it.. you need it?
    Pretty please.. with sugar on top?
    Give us something man... a bone.. toss us a bone man.

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