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Thread: PvP/PvE Activity Overlap

  1. #841
    Rift Disciple Moxie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flarestar View Post
    Personally I agree these changes should only be made on the PVE servers. However, I can understand why they weren't. Here's what would have happened if they had done it either of the other ways asked for in this thread.

    Changes implemented only on PVE (what a bunch of you have actually asked for)

    Immediate flood of complaints from the PVP crowd that world PVP objectives were given to PVE servers and denied to PVP servers. Devs now have to maintain two separate code bases. The same complaint PVEers had of people camping their quest hubs eventually spreads to PVP servers once the population starts to get high-level heavy.

    PVE changes only implemented on PVE, PVP only on PVP

    Immediate flood of complaints from the PvEvP crowd that the new ward stones aren't present on PVE servers. Immediate flood of responses from PVPers calling them carebears for not rolling on a PVP server. Devs now have to maintain two separate code bases. The same complaint PVEers had of people camping their quest hubs eventually spreads to PVP servers once the population starts to get high-level heavy.

    Either way the one group or another would have (legitimately) gone up in flames over it.

    Instead they chose the third path - implement all changes on both servers. Net result:

    Both sides get more protected, although by no means actually safe, quest hubs.
    Both sides get open world PVP objectives that, given the rest of the development done on this game, will very likely give meaningful rewards.
    Devs only have to maintain one code base.

    And that's really the end result of it. Nobody's talking about removing PVP from the game, and the changes do not consist of a massive deterrent to PVP. If anything they'll increase the likelihood of PVP activity - it will take a small group at minimum to take out a quest hub now (seriously, did you think it was at all balanced that one or two people could easily take and hold what is in effect a minor stronghold?), and more enemy in one place = more likelihood of defensive response. The new ward stones, likewise - give players an objective with meaningful benefit and they'll flock to it.

    Said it before and I'll say it again - every single bit of screaming in this thread is hilariously premature. See how the changes play out before you scream doom and apocalypse. This is beta for a reason.
    This is the most sensible post on this thread. Kudos!

  2. #842
    Soulwalker Ravern's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nadrik View Post
    Bullsh*t. Anyone who wanted meaningful PvP has a complaint. Trion caved to the whiners and made blanket changes to every server type, just like anyone who's been around for more than a day in MMOs knew would happen. It's trammel all over again.

    Putting a stick in the desert and calling it a PvP target sure a f*ck doesn't make it one. Trion needs to really think about what they do with this, because meaningless PvP is something nobody wants. SandLOL anyone?

    Keep this sh*t off of PvP servers.
    And quest npc, porticulum master, and wardstones used for rift events were pvp targets?

    The P in PvP = players nothign in this update changes that
    Last edited by Ravern; 02-03-2011 at 07:25 AM.
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  3. #843
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ravern View Post
    And quest npc, porticulum master, and wardstones used for rift events were pvp targets?

    The P in PvP = players nothign in this update changes that
    I wouldn't expect a PvEr to understand that PvP is more about loss than it is gain. If you stand to lose nothing, PvP is pointless. In this case, you lost control of your quest hub, an important asset. It gives someone something to actually fight for, instead of just saying "Who cares?" like what's going to happen with these horsesh*t PvP objectives.

  4. #844
    Telaran
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    Why is this happening on PvP servers? You should know signing up that it's "anything goes" on there. PvE servers, sure this makes sense. But several people signed up for the "law of the jungle" PvP servers.

    If you can't handle the heat, get out of the kitchen.

    This game is faction vs faction, right? How do you hurt the other faction? Taking out their quest hubs is a nice start. If you don't like it then no one is stopping you from going to a PvE server.
    Last edited by Outrageous; 02-03-2011 at 07:31 AM.

  5. #845
    Pia
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    ty so much Zann and Trion for giving players of all types the choice of how to enjoy the game in their own way/style of play !!! Much respect held in high esteem to the devs, gms and the whole staff behind RIFT --- ty for a great game!
    Last edited by Pia; 02-03-2011 at 07:31 AM.
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  6. #846
    Shadowlander Aspira's Avatar
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    As a player whose last MMO they played at a "hardcore" level was Aion, I or anyone who played Aion from a PvP perspective can tell you how the overpopulation of guards ruined the open world PvP potential of that game. Open world PvP in Aion consisted of trying to find someone who wasn't questing while hugging a quest hub so they could retreat to guards as soon as the PvP started. If you did find someone in the open, which was rare, as soon as they knew they were going to lose the fight, they would blow all their cooldowns in an attempt to run to the nearest set of guards to hide. It was pathetic.

    Now, I am a PvPer, and I honestly couldn't care less about PvE and lore and all that stuff, but I know some people do, and that's their right to like that sort of content and I am not going to insult them for being that kind of player.

    However, there are PvP and PvE servers for a reason. If you don't like ganking or being ganked or logging in and your entire town is controlled by enemies, then maybe a PvP server is not for you. Why the two server rulesets should share similarities such as guard density I do not understand.

    The RIFT betas so far have offered quite possibly one of the best open world PvP experiences of any recent MMO, and now it looks like they are going to go down the route of putting guards everywhere. PvPvE is nowhere near as enjoyable as pure PvP as pure PvP is down to the skill of the players, not down to who can agro the most guards into their opponents.

    The main issue I have with the addition of guards (especially guards who will one shot you) is that it tries to dictate when and where open world PvP will happen. To me the whole point of playing on a PvP server is so that open world PvP will happen anywhere at anytime. If there are too many guards in camps, or the guards are too powerful, it forces the PvP into set areas, which tbh, isn't really open world PvP. It's more like open battlegrounds as its going to be the same "map" each time as you are forced into the same zones due to guards.

    In short;

    The ability to hide behind NPC's was the biggest issue in Aion as it actively prevented PvP. So far RIFT has been ticking all the boxes in trying to promote PvP, but if they go ahead with this "increased amount of guards" and "one shotting guards" then pretty much say hello to Aion 2.0 in regards to open world PvP.

  7. #847
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ravern View Post
    And quest npc, porticulum master, and wardstones used for rift events were pvp targets?

    The P in PvP = players nothign in this update changes that

    Nobody is asking for these changes to be reverted on PVE SERVERS


    Quest NPCs and Porticulum masters being targets is indeed PVP related.

    If you disable a quest hub the intent isn't to grief the players currently there, it's to provoke a faction battle.
    Ie it generates meaningful world PVP.


    Nobody is asking for these changes to be reverted on PVE SERVERS


    These kind of changes lead to world PVP where the only PVP is shallow ganking ( exactly what it seems like PVEers hate, and what most PVPers hate as well ).


    Nobody is asking for these changes to be reverted on PVE SERVERS


    Real example : The zones PVP wardstones are almost all controlled by one faction, disabling the porticulum master in the zone from the opposing faction slows down their reaction capability and broadens the strategic conflict of world pvp raid bosses.
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  8. #848
    Rift Chaser Cosian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nadrik View Post
    Bullsh*t. Anyone who wanted meaningful PvP has a complaint. .....
    I want meaningful PvP and running all over the map playing whack a mole because a 2 man PvP group is able to take down major hubs .... doesn't seem very meaningful .... or fun ..... to me?? A modicum of intrinsic defense at major hubs seems realistic and it is not going to stop an organized group from taking down a hub. I think its going to be good!

    Getting good players is one thing .... getting ones that play together is another ...

  9. #849
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zann View Post
    Wardstones in Quest Camps aren't supposed to be attackable targets, or provide rewards for defeating them. The rewards on those were a bug that's been addressed. Those are part of the PvE land control game of rifts and invasions.
    The main issue, as I see it is that most players are PvEvP players. Trion has started down a slippery where wardstones "were" supposed to be attackable and defendable in quest hubs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Paerin View Post
    The reason some people are upset about the loss of killing quest hub Wardstones is because people have a reason to be in those place and that would lead to actual PvP. If the endgame open world PvP revolves around killing NPC's to take a wardstone - and no actual PvP you will lose players and subscriptions.

    A flag in the middle of the wilderness is not going to cut it. A flag in a wilderness with 5 NPC's who sell gear is not going to cut it. We need something that makes it worthwhile for us to spend our time at, and creates a hub of PvP activity.
    This is not longer really a faction v faction game, but a title used for differentiation of story on a PvE server. So what seems lost is open-world factional community interaction.

    Yea. Since I'm a PvEvP'r rolling on a PvE server, what the heck am I now attacking a wardstone that has no purpose to the opposing faction nor offers any tangible motivation for them to "protect", yet are placed in off-the-beaten-path" of game-play. Why? What' is my game-play motivation to attack a wardstone or defend one that is nestled far off-track of the population? Whoohoo?

  10. #850
    Telaran
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspira View Post
    As a player whose last MMO they played at a "hardcore" level was Aion, I or anyone who played Aion from a PvP perspective can tell you how the overpopulation of guards ruined the open world PvP potential of that game. Open world PvP in Aion consisted of trying to find someone who wasn't questing while hugging a quest hub so they could retreat to guards as soon as the PvP started. If you did find someone in the open, which was rare, as soon as they knew they were going to lose the fight, they would blow all their cooldowns in an attempt to run to the nearest set of guards to hide. It was pathetic.

    Now, I am a PvPer, and I honestly couldn't care less about PvE and lore and all that stuff, but I know some people do, and that's their right to like that sort of content and I am not going to insult them for being that kind of player.

    However, there are PvP and PvE servers for a reason. If you don't like ganking or being ganked or logging in and your entire town is controlled by enemies, then maybe a PvP server is not for you. Why the two server rulesets should share similarities such as guard density I do not understand.

    The RIFT betas so far have offered quite possibly one of the best open world PvP experiences of any recent MMO, and now it looks like they are going to go down the route of putting guards everywhere. PvPvE is nowhere near as enjoyable as pure PvP as pure PvP is down to the skill of the players, not down to who can agro the most guards into their opponents.

    The main issue I have with the addition of guards (especially guards who will one shot you) is that it tries to dictate when and where open world PvP will happen. To me the whole point of playing on a PvP server is so that open world PvP will happen anywhere at anytime. If there are too many guards in camps, or the guards are too powerful, it forces the PvP into set areas, which tbh, isn't really open world PvP. It's more like open battlegrounds as its going to be the same "map" each time as you are forced into the same zones due to guards.

    In short;

    The ability to hide behind NPC's was the biggest issue in Aion as it actively prevented PvP. So far RIFT has been ticking all the boxes in trying to promote PvP, but if they go ahead with this "increased amount of guards" and "one shotting guards" then pretty much say hello to Aion 2.0 in regards to open world PvP.
    People need to re-read this. As a Moderator on an Aion fansite, I can attest that this is the truth.

  11. #851
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shantotto View Post

    Nobody is asking for these changes to be reverted on PVE SERVERS


    Quest NPCs and Porticulum masters being targets is indeed PVP related.

    If you disable a quest hub the intent isn't to grief the players currently there, it's to provoke a faction battle.
    Ie it generates meaningful world PVP.


    Nobody is asking for these changes to be reverted on PVE SERVERS


    These kind of changes lead to world PVP where the only PVP is shallow ganking ( exactly what it seems like PVEers hate, and what most PVPers hate as well ).


    Nobody is asking for these changes to be reverted on PVE SERVERS


    Real example : The zones PVP wardstones are almost all controlled by one faction, disabling the porticulum master in the zone from the opposing faction slows down their reaction capability and broadens the strategic conflict of world pvp raid bosses.
    Thank you for posting this. Seriously.

    Why not just keep these changes on the PvE servers and leave PvP servers as is?

  12. #852
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aspira View Post
    In short;

    The ability to hide behind NPC's was the biggest issue in Aion as it actively prevented PvP. So far RIFT has been ticking all the boxes in trying to promote PvP, but if they go ahead with this "increased amount of guards" and "one shotting guards" then pretty much say hello to Aion 2.0 in regards to open world PvP.
    Nothing in the patch notes indicated increased numbers of guards unless you attack the porticulum master. Likewise, nothing was said about the upgraded guards one shotting anything.

    If you want to argue pros and cons of these changes, a good starting point would be to actually address the changes being made - not the changes that you made up.

  13. #853
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cosian View Post
    I want meaningful PvP and running all over the map playing whack a mole because a 2 man PvP group is able to take down major hubs .... doesn't seem very meaningful .... or fun ..... to me?? A modicum of intrinsic defense at major hubs seems realistic and it is not going to stop an organized group from taking down a hub. I think its going to be good!
    That seems spot on.

    I don't really understand all the mechanics of this but if there are powerful guards around doesn't that suggest that people should be organising themselves into strong enough groups to deal with them? Nothing I have seen seems to prevent people from going in, killing these uber guards and having as much PvP as they want providing that they have an organised party to do this, or am I wrong?

    As other people have said, you'd expect guards to be reasonably strong - that's why they're GUARDS for goodness' sake.

  14. #854
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    Quote Originally Posted by Outrageous View Post
    Thank you for posting this. Seriously.

    Why not just keep these changes on the PvE servers and leave PvP servers as is?
    http://forums.riftgame.com/showthrea...848#post779848

    That's why.

  15. #855
    Prophet of Telara kuronese's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Outrageous View Post
    People need to re-read this. As a Moderator on an Aion fansite, I can attest that this is the truth.
    As can I, after playing Aion in China and North America.

    China was a lot more fun (due to PvP actually being everywhere).

    On MMO break until someone decides to put out a game developed for PvP.
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