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  Click here to go to the first Rift Team post in this thread.   Thread: Whoa Apotheosis

  1. #1
    Plane Walker
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    Default Whoa Apotheosis

    What happened? Just heard bits and pieces. Would love to hear Trion's side of the story as well just to be fair to both.

    Gonna miss those great guides by Oria. Anyone planning on carrying his torch?

  2. #2
    Plane Touched Jabberrwocky's Avatar
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    Just heard too through the grapevine. Loves his videos.. too bad. Big loss for the community imo.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gurgi of Prydain View Post
    What happened? Just heard bits and pieces. Would love to hear Trion's side of the story as well just to be fair to both.

    Gonna miss those great guides by Oria. Anyone planning on carrying his torch?
    Guilds having problems is always sad. That being said, I'll address the rest of your questions with this quote:

    Quote Originally Posted by Ocho View Post

    As to the current kerfuffle, I've watched the video (obviously unacceptable for the forums) and while I think there are some fair bits (mostly relating to bosses being unavailable due to bugs, something that's never acceptable to us) most of it is hyperbole or a distortion of the truth. We're not going to discuss it further, because of the content we can't really have a full discussion, but we are happy to answer questions and talk about RIFT. That will pick up more as the holidays end and we all get back in office.

    ...

    The thing to keep in mind here is we all love RIFT and we should use that as something to bring us together and not sink to the level of petty insults and trolling. Let's start the new year elevating the conversation instead of dragging it down into the muck. Things work much better that way.

  4. #4
    Champion of Telara Stihl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ocho View Post
    Guilds having problems is always sad. That being said, I'll address the rest of your questions with this quote:
    I don't think they had a problem... They all went to the same game together so I am pretty sure internally they were okay.

    EDIT: wtf you talkin about Hikos?
    Last edited by Stihl; 01-02-2016 at 03:44 PM.
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  5. #5
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    I am old.

    I remember 2 Live Crew. Most of the folks reading here probably have no idea who that is, so I'll summarize if you don't want to go to Wikipedia.

    Essentially, a rap group of less-than-average talent (in my opinion) and nastier-than-average lyrics (for the day) made an album, As Nasty as They Wanna Be, that was banned for obscenity by a judge in Florida in 1989.

    Relatively few people had ever heard of this group prior to the ban. But the legal action made national news, and prominent musicians of all artistic stripes rallied behind the band, opposing censorship.

    Eventually, the United States Court of Appeals for the Eleventh Circuit overturned the obscenity ruling, and the album sold over two million copies as a result of the controversy.

    What does this have to do with Rift?

    Over the years, I've learned, as a moderator of other gaming forums and as an observer, that it's mostly best to let people shout themselves out. If possible, avoid banning them -- the silencing just attracts attention. It makes people curious about what was said, and they go to other fan sites to seek it out. Unfortunately, it tends to have the side effect of altering people's perceptions a bit: banning validates the banned. "Wow, what they've said must be true if the company bothered to ban them," etc.

    It's not necessarily so, of course. As I said, 2 Live Crew was pretty mediocre in the grand scheme of things. But everybody wanted to hear what was so naughty that it merited a court ruling.

    More recently, in 2012, (again, in Florida), we saw several branches of the Brevard County library remove Fifty Shades of Grey from the shelves. Again, this made national news and boosted sales.

    All I'm saying is that these actions are probably drawing attention to the very thing you seek to quell. There's nothing technically wrong with enforcing the forum rules, of course, but as the brilliant author Ian McEwan demonstrates time and again in his novels, perception, accurate or inaccurate, is everything.

    I've seen both sides over the years. I know how melodramatic gamers can sometimes get: this is a community that is not known for tact or subtlety. I sympathize with the moderators who have good reasons within the company for not sharing their side of the story -- sometimes, there are things coming on the horizon from a business perspective that delay or prevent timely dialogue.

    Mostly, though, in my experience, it's best to just let them rant and get it out of their systems. Calling attention to it with bans and official statements tends to just exacerbate the situation.

    My apologies if this post appears to stir the pot. That is an unintended side effect. It's genuinely intended just to offer some long-range perspective from someone with two decades of MMOs under her belt.

    Thanks for reading.
    Last edited by Jirahar; 01-02-2016 at 01:57 PM. Reason: Adding a comma after album name

  6.   Click here to go to the next Rift Team post in this thread.   #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jirahar View Post
    I am old.

    I remember 2 Live Crew. Most of the folks reading here probably have no idea who that is, so I'll summarize if you don't want to go to Wikipedia.

    Essentially, a rap group of less-than-average talent (in my opinion) and nastier-than-average lyrics (for the day) made an album, As Nasty as They Wanna Be, that was banned for obscenity by a judge in Florida in 1989.

    Very few people had ever heard of this group prior to the ban. But the legal action made national news, and prominent musicians of all artistic stripes rallied behind the band, opposing censorship.

    Eventually, the United States Court of Appeals for the Eleventh Circuit overturned the obscenity ruling, and the album sold over two million copies as a result of the controversy.

    What does this have to do with Rift?

    Over the years, I've learned, as a moderator of other gaming forums and as an observer, that it's mostly best to let people shout themselves out. If possible, avoid banning them -- the silencing just attracts attention. It makes people curious about what was said, and they go to other fan sites to seek it out. Unfortunately, it tends to have the side effect of altering people's perceptions a bit: banning validates the banned. "Wow, what they've said must be true if the company bothered to ban them," etc.

    It's not necessarily so, of course. As I said, 2 Live Crew was pretty mediocre in the grand scheme of things. But everybody wanted to hear what was so naughty that it merited a court ruling.

    More recently, in 2012, (again, in Florida), we saw several branches of the Brevard County library remove Fifty Shades of Grey from the shelves. Again, this made national news and boosted sales.

    All I'm saying is that these actions are probably drawing attention to the very thing you seek to quell. There's nothing technically wrong with enforcing the forum rules, of course, but as the brilliant author Ian McEwan demonstrates time and again in his novels, perception, accurate or inaccurate, is everything.

    I've seen both sides over the years. I know how melodramatic gamers can sometimes get. I sympathize with the moderators who have good reasons within the company for not sharing their side of the story -- sometimes, there are things coming on the horizon from a business perspective that delay or prevent timely dialogue.

    Mostly, though, in my experience, it's best to just let them rant and get it out of their systems. Calling attention to it with bans and official statements tends to just exacerbate the situation.

    My apologies if this post appears to stir the pot. That is an unintended side effect. It's genuinely intended just to offer some long-range perspective from someone with two decades of MMOs under her belt.

    Thanks for reading.
    I agree. Streisand effect and all that. Some folks went above and beyond in this case however forcing our hand. It's truly regretful.

  7. #7
    Plane Touched Liandell's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jirahar View Post
    I am old.

    I remember 2 Live Crew. Most of the folks reading here probably have no idea who that is, so I'll summarize if you don't want to go to Wikipedia.

    Essentially, a rap group of less-than-average talent (in my opinion) and nastier-than-average lyrics (for the day) made an album, As Nasty as They Wanna Be, that was banned for obscenity by a judge in Florida in 1989.

    Relatively few people had ever heard of this group prior to the ban. But the legal action made national news, and prominent musicians of all artistic stripes rallied behind the band, opposing censorship.

    Eventually, the United States Court of Appeals for the Eleventh Circuit overturned the obscenity ruling, and the album sold over two million copies as a result of the controversy.

    What does this have to do with Rift?

    Over the years, I've learned, as a moderator of other gaming forums and as an observer, that it's mostly best to let people shout themselves out. If possible, avoid banning them -- the silencing just attracts attention. It makes people curious about what was said, and they go to other fan sites to seek it out. Unfortunately, it tends to have the side effect of altering people's perceptions a bit: banning validates the banned. "Wow, what they've said must be true if the company bothered to ban them," etc.

    It's not necessarily so, of course. As I said, 2 Live Crew was pretty mediocre in the grand scheme of things. But everybody wanted to hear what was so naughty that it merited a court ruling.

    More recently, in 2012, (again, in Florida), we saw several branches of the Brevard County library remove Fifty Shades of Grey from the shelves. Again, this made national news and boosted sales.

    All I'm saying is that these actions are probably drawing attention to the very thing you seek to quell. There's nothing technically wrong with enforcing the forum rules, of course, but as the brilliant author Ian McEwan demonstrates time and again in his novels, perception, accurate or inaccurate, is everything.

    I've seen both sides over the years. I know how melodramatic gamers can sometimes get: this is a community that is not known for tact or subtlety. I sympathize with the moderators who have good reasons within the company for not sharing their side of the story -- sometimes, there are things coming on the horizon from a business perspective that delay or prevent timely dialogue.

    Mostly, though, in my experience, it's best to just let them rant and get it out of their systems. Calling attention to it with bans and official statements tends to just exacerbate the situation.

    My apologies if this post appears to stir the pot. That is an unintended side effect. It's genuinely intended just to offer some long-range perspective from someone with two decades of MMOs under her belt.

    Thanks for reading.
    You're right. In going about this this way they have created a kind of "Voldemort effect." It's now on everyone's minds, but they aren't allowed to speak of it out loud.

    Plus it's basic human psychology 101: People get more upset when they are told they cannot speak about certain matters than if they are allowed to speak freely.

  8. #8
    Plane Walker Sekirach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ocho View Post
    in this case however forcing our hand.
    "the force is strong with this one"

  9.   Click here to go to the next Rift Team post in this thread.   #9
    Rift Team Ocho's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sekirach View Post
    "the force is strong with this one"
    No spoilers.

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    I think the most telling thing about this whole thing is the video in question already has nearly 7k views and the Reddit discussion on the subject has going on 300 replies both in under 24 hours and yet there are less than a dozen posts on the matter in the official Rift forums.
    The fact so many people are choosing to voice their opinion on the matter on a 3rd party sites over the official Rift forums goes to show how many people fear reprisal from Trion for their opinions.

  11. #11
    Plane Walker Sekirach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Artak View Post
    The fact so many people are choosing to voice their opinion on the matter on a 3rd party sites over the official Rift forums goes to show how many people fear reprisal from Trion for their opinions.
    there is no fear. there is no reprisal. and there are no spoilers.

  12. #12
    Rift Master YobiRaion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ocho View Post
    Guilds having problems is always sad. That being said, I'll address the rest of your questions with this quote:
    Ocho can you please explain to me why you are trying to sell an inaccurate version of the story?

    I mean, first you call certain people immature for "distorting the truth" and then you go left and write making posts like this.
    You are supposed to be a professional, right? How are you any different from "angry players" right now?

    To say the least, some of Apotheosys players might(!) have a positive opinion about you.
    However, by spreading lies about an entire guild and why it moved to another game while it was doing so well in RIFT, it is very likely that you will only lose more players who had respect for you.

    Please recall your statement.

    The World First guild moved as a pack to another game because the vast majority simply didn't want to play RIFT anymore for many reasons. Disliking that this has happened is one thing and trying to spread rumors that the guild fell apart "due to internal problems" is another.

    Thank you for your understanding and I hope to see you correcting your post.
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  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Artak View Post
    I think the most telling thing about this whole thing is the video in question already has nearly 7k views and the Reddit discussion on the subject has going on 300 replies both in under 24 hours...
    That was a bit expectable, don't you think? I haven't raided for years and usually do not bother with the raider drama, but of course I googled it now, read their message, and viewed the video. No idea how much of what they say is for real, I tend not to take stuff too serious that throws around n*zi comparisons (note: the n*zis killed 50 million people, Trion banned a handful of people - if you can't see the difference, there's nothing anybody can do to help you).

    So... the best guild left, time for the second best guild to step up. If they aren't as fast as Apo was, the Devs will have more time to test their stuff

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elayara View Post
    So... the best guild left, time for the second best guild to step up. If they aren't as fast as Apo was, the Devs will have more time to test their stuff
    True, true... everyone can make best guides for the people that can't preform as well and help them out.

    /s

  15. #15
    Plane Walker Liadva's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by YobiRaion View Post
    Ocho can you please explain to me why you are trying to sell an inaccurate version of the story?
    Just like a lot of inaccuracies about particular issues in your website post.

    Thanks for the journey RIFT - It's been fun

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