+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 22
Like Tree18Likes

Thread: Why 31 point soul tree's are a bad idea.

  1. #1
    Rift Disciple Aksinan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Posts
    196

    Default Why 31 point soul tree's are a bad idea.

    So alot of people have been upset about the 31point soul tree's off Primalists. So far the explanations we have got for it so far is:

    1. It's different and unique.
    2. IT's NOT a cost save!!
    3. 5% damage points are boring.

    So these are reasons! But they are not being thought through. I don't know if any devs will read this but you are missing some major points! (pun not intended... maybe)

    So why are the arbitrary 5% damage points important?
    Because it gives you the ability to experiment to find different ways off playing the game.
    Currently the Rift scen is being dominated by 61 point build where 15 points are just for stats. But this is not all there is.

    There are builds out there that literally relies on the small % based damage bonuses!
    Such as Assdancer! This is a build that focuses to 100% on getting passive bonuses from Bladedancer to infuse the assassin abilities with more burst. Without the passive bonuses this build would never have happened.

    The thing is that the more you narrow in the point's and the margins the easier it is to control the class so people can't find new and amazing hybrids! Like rogue 38/38.
    But by forcing down the points and removing options you are locking the class down in order to stop people from finding their way to play a choosen class.

    This does mean that the only hybrid builds that Primalist will have will be the once that Trion puts in on purpose. Which then kinda defeats the point. They will be found before the class is even released.


    So why are hybrids important? Many people will be sitting there like "Derp i play 61 point builds 95% off the time, why care?"
    The reason is that the one thing that truly sets this game apart is variaty in builds! There is not a single thing that rift has better than any other MMO out there except the class system!
    Do not dumb it down! And yes moving it to 31 points will dumb it down.
    Less options are allways bad.

    So why am I writing this? I know it wont change primalist! I understand this and accept it!
    But! There has been ALOT off hedging about the question Will other classes eventually get the same system? And this is what I want to nip in the bud if I can.

    Conclution.
    The thing the drives a game like Rift is that you feel that you can allways try something new and find a way to improve and get better.
    By narrowing down the amount off abilities and talent points you remove part off the depth off your given class.
    If you do decided to eventually go the way off the game that shall not be named. And simplify the system you will lose the soul off rift.

    TLR
    31 point soul tree's is a bad idea because:
    1. It removes options.
    2. It removes one major aspect off the game for many.
    3. Slowly it removes the one big advantage rift as compared to other mmorpgs.

  2. #2
    Champion of Telara Sargonnas_KoA's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Posts
    1,297

    Default

    I dont have an opinion one way or another on the Primalist or the soul trees for it. I dont really see how anyone can have much of an opinion when none of us have been able to play it. It may be awesome or maybe the 31 point soul trees will be an issue. At this point nobody really knows.

  3. #3
    Sword of Telara Nithydux's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    856

    Default

    If 31 point soul trees means souls get balanced more easily then I'm all for it.
    Niou Glitterdance - 70 The Silent
    Wikstrom Seihachi - 6- The Relentless
    -= Faeblight =-

  4. #4
    Ascendant Darcnova's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Potato Land,USA!
    Posts
    2,879

    Default

    Gotta agree with both of the people above me...

    I'll also add that I think you're just seeing a lower number, without seeing the trees themselves, resulting in you instantly assuming that it's gonna suck.

  5. #5
    Rift Disciple
    Join Date
    Mar 2015
    Posts
    158

    Default

    Jolt is the Tempest pocket heal ability, you take it by spending 1 point in the tree, it is a very minor heal on a dps glass canon soul with crippling energy management problems.
    2 levels above you can put up to 2 points in the Magnified Charge passive.
    For these 2 points it increases the healing of Jolt by 6%.

    I'm all for points reduction if it avoids us these kind of ridiculous sillinesses.

  6. #6
    Ascendant
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Posts
    1,459

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Sargonnas_KoA View Post
    I dont have an opinion one way or another on the Primalist or the soul trees for it. I dont really see how anyone can have much of an opinion when none of us have been able to play it. It may be awesome or maybe the 31 point soul trees will be an issue. At this point nobody really knows.
    You are talking about a completely separate issue. The OP Is talking about variety and choice while you are talking about experiential game play (how the point system will affect the play of the class).

    I agree with the OP that the extra points allow increased choice. That is universal to the skill trees here, or the different types of apples you have access to while baking a pie. More stuff = more choices.

    That being said, I believe the focus bar will add enough complexity to the class to distract me from my lack of choices.
    \

  7. #7
    Ascendant
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Posts
    1,459

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Darcnova View Post
    Gotta agree with both of the people above me...

    I'll also add that I think you're just seeing a lower number, without seeing the trees themselves, resulting in you instantly assuming that it's gonna suck.
    Its not about "sucking" as i said. Your assuming less points = horrid to play. I am simply agreeing with the OP that less points = less choice in build. Less choice in build =\= less fun necessarily.
    \

  8. #8
    General of Telara
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Posts
    967

    Default

    Honestly, I don't consider it "hybrid" if you just take +x% passive talents from other trees. Hybrid to me means combining abilities/mechanics from different trees in effective and creative ways. Sure you get some "root" abilities as by-product anyhow, but you have to take those in the order they are, with the first few often being about equal to some other souls.

    So from what I understand, Trion argues that it's a disadvantage of the 61 point trees that those passives tend to be superior to actually using skils/mechanics from other souls, making some choices that do affect game play unattractive as a result.
    And my impression of current hybrid variants in various guides is also that the usage of passives combined with inevitable redundant early abilities too often doesn't lead to a more sophisticated spec, but often even reduces the number of skills you're going to use, and just too few non-61 really work for experts/raiding anyway.
    But then again throwing out the passives isn't going to be the silver bullet, it won't magically create the desired ability synergies.

    Sure some number crunchers will be disappointed that there's less overall variants to simulate, but seriously, how many do that? If you're just gonna copy the cookie cutter result of someone else anyway because you have no clue if +x% weapon damage is marginally better than +y% crit chance, you might aswell not have the choice in the first place.

    However, I somewhat doubt these "slim" trees will really make balancing easier, I think static numbers are way easier to handle than interacting mechanics. Just look how revamps like those of the Stormcaller messed everything up initially, it worked a little too well with just about everything else.

  9. #9
    Ascendant
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Posts
    1,459

    Default

    I can understand that mentality, but like the OP said, Assdancer exists because of those passive numbers/abilities. It may not be intended, but it sure is fun Again, I'm not super disappointed, just a little. I like variety and choice.
    \

  10. #10
    Ascendant
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Posts
    2,357

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Reticularize View Post
    Its not about "sucking" as i said. Your assuming less points = horrid to play. I am simply agreeing with the OP that less points = less choice in build. Less choice in build =\= less fun necessarily.
    Regardless of how you want to frame it, I see people crying out against change. We are accustomed to the 61-point souls, and some people apparently protest against any change to this 'tradition'.

    The OP's arguments are weak, and based on assumptions. Until we actually see the Primalist's souls in detail, we have no real information to work on.

    It is one thing to voice concerns, it is another to make sweeping proclamations based on zero actual data.

  11. #11
    Rift Master Godgrinder's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Posts
    632

    Default

    Since there is next to NO hybridization with how classes are run atm, 31 points won't make a **** all difference whatsoever.

  12. #12
    Plane Touched Akamhara's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Posts
    246

    Default

    Hello, welcome to Rift. I am saying welcome because I assume you were not here pre-FTP for ye olde soul tree and root system.

    Two things:

    1. Rift has not always been the valley of 41 point soul trees. Look back to original launch soul trees. We survived those changes, and I'm sure will do so again in the future as it comes back around.

    2. Trees. No apostrophe. Sorry!

    Just so you know, back in ye olde days, you picked three souls to begin the game with in your class - this was an in-game selection in the start zone, running around talking to various NPCs who told you about Purifier, or Justicar, and then you agreed this sounded mighty fabulous and you might like to commit to this longterm, and then when you realised that maybe tanking is so not what you had in mind, you actually had to go and quest to acquire the remaining souls in your class - this then changed to being able to purchase them for plat over time, to eventually being given access to them from the get-go.

    I assume we lost all the complexity because of the whining about effort, and as a two cents - this is probably now why you have a trimmed down soul tree.
    Nyathera, Kithra, Hekili, Nyalist @ Typhiria

  13. #13
    Champion of Telara Sargonnas_KoA's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Posts
    1,297

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Reticularize View Post
    You are talking about a completely separate issue.
    Not really. Almost any discussion of any kind related to opinions on a character class that none of us can currently play just doesnt work.

  14. #14
    Rift Disciple
    Join Date
    Jul 2014
    Posts
    116

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Aksinan View Post
    The reason is that the one thing that truly sets this game apart is variaty in builds! There is not a single thing that rift has better than any other MMO out there except the class system!
    Do not dumb it down! And yes moving it to 31 points will dumb it down.
    Less options are allways bad.

    Agree here! Especially on leveling phase when i can't use full tree and still have a plenty of free points...

  15. #15
    Ascendant
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Posts
    3,131

    Default

    Lemme just open up the champion soul tree. (I'm a warrior, I'm going to use warrior souls for examples)

    Here's a link!

    http://rift.magelo.com/en/soultree#7/

    10% strength. 5 point.
    10% Damage to Abilities that consume AP. 5 points.
    10% Armor and Resist Pierce. 5 points.
    25% Strength, on 20% of attacks. 5 points.
    15% AoE damage. 3 points.
    3% dodge 6% AP and 6% WC. 3 points.
    20% chance of recovering 6 power. 3 points.
    15% AP and WC on AoEs. 3 points.
    15% increased damage debuff on targets of finisher. 3 points.
    30% increased damage to champion abilities. 3 points.
    Increase to the effectiveness of bearings 3 points.

    5+5+5+5+3+3+3+3+3+3+3 = 41.

    FORY ONE FREAKING POINTS. All it is is pure +damage. No abilities. No special effects. No fancy timing. No nothing. Just attack the thing you want to kill. There's even a few more points in there that could be slashed down to 1 point nodes, and you'd get less then 31 points, letting you migrate root abilities into the branches at more convenient places.

    Ah for hybrids? You could just as easily hybrid 28points and 13 points (or whatever it is Primalist is going ot use) and get the same results as 48/28 or whatever the crap you want.

    The only thing you could argue for is the roots. Great options there. A bunch of abilities you NEVER use I.E why the crap would anyone ever use power strike or punishing blow as any kind of soul combination that involves champion? (even for pure champion it's usually useless to use those two abilities)

    As for the abilities you actually care about? Well they are behind those useless abilities, and a bunch of others that are redundant and useless and could be taken out (or moved to a similar spot in the branches instead of bloated damage nodes). Leaving you with a smaller amount of roots, all placed at the same relative spots.

    The argument about "less options" only matter if options are worth a damn in the first place. Otherwise those "options" are nothing but big fancy distractions that serve to do nothing but confuse people, and make them THINK they have options when they don't.

    These are you choices with current system. you get to pick one of the following!

    Half a dozen.
    Forty Eight divided by Eight.
    Twenty percent of Thirty.


    This is what you get with the Primalist system.

    Six.

    Which system is better?
    Burst before or after Rift implosion, never both.

+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts