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  Click here to go to the first Rift Team post in this thread.   Thread: Why so many issues?

  1. #1
    Soulwalker
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    Default Why so many issues?

    I might be very wrong, but aren't the public test realms there to test and look for issues in upcoming patches and updates?
    Once found, isn't the idea to try and resolve the issues BEFORE the update is released to the general players?
    I have been trying to d/l this update for 30 hours and it will not go past the half way mark. I have tried doing everything people have suggested to no avail.

    I am dumbfounded how all these issues occurred even after they were supposedly tested on the PTR. Is it really that important to have things released early, that are broken?

    PTR = Find, repair, release = happy players

  2. #2
    Phs
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    I have been trying to d/l this update for 30 hours and it will not go past the half way mark. I have tried doing everything people have suggested to no avail.
    Honestly that's your problem. Everybody else playing right can attest to it's working for them.

    The PTS does find and fix many, many problems but you know, a lot people are failing to realise: not everything is going to be noticed/found. There are not as many people on the PTS looking at the same thing. There are just not as many people doing things, straining the server. Somebody might not noticed a typo because it's not what they were looking for.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phs View Post
    Somebody might not noticed a typo because it's not what they were looking for.
    Good to hear that typos are the only problem in this patch. I sure can live with these for a while.

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    This Space For Rent Scormus's Avatar
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    The problem with PTR testing is that for most people, testing is the last thing on their mind. Raiders are trying out new raids, to get a jump on other guilds when it goes live. Other players are playing the new questing content and whatnot, and only concern themselves with reporting something if it directly affects them. Otherwise, they don't really pay attention to bugs they might see.

    In short, most people on the PTR are there to preview upcoming content, not to actually test it. So there should be no surprise that when a patch comes out to Live it might be filled with game-breaking bugs, because they simply weren't found during testing, or if they were, Trion was not able to fix it in time for launch.

  5. #5
    Telaran jana4u's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scormus View Post
    The problem with PTR testing is that for most people, testing is the last thing on their mind. Raiders are trying out new raids, to get a jump on other guilds when it goes live. Other players are playing the new questing content and whatnot, and only concern themselves with reporting something if it directly affects them. Otherwise, they don't really pay attention to bugs they might see.

    In short, most people on the PTR are there to preview upcoming content, not to actually test it. So there should be no surprise that when a patch comes out to Live it might be filled with game-breaking bugs, because they simply weren't found during testing, or if they were, Trion was not able to fix it in time for launch.
    This is exactly how it works with me on PTS. I go to check wardrobe changes there. I even reported something about 2 weeks ago and it went life with that anyway. It is kinda discouraging to report stuff if it is not fixed even when reported... :-(
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  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scormus View Post
    The problem with PTR testing is that for most people, testing is the last thing on their mind. Raiders are trying out new raids, to get a jump on other guilds when it goes live. Other players are playing the new questing content and whatnot, and only concern themselves with reporting something if it directly affects them. Otherwise, they don't really pay attention to bugs they might see.

    In short, most people on the PTR are there to preview upcoming content, not to actually test it. So there should be no surprise that when a patch comes out to Live it might be filled with game-breaking bugs, because they simply weren't found during testing, or if they were, Trion was not able to fix it in time for launch.
    Lessons from the War on Bugs, Faults, and Coldstarts...

    Actually, what these individuals "doing their own thing" contribute to a public test is important, and is a direct contribution to testing (though it's mostly passive). The individuals, no matter their focus, represent one primary element to a public test...

    TRAFFIC (and there is no substitute)
    So if raiders wanna raid, let them. Quest doers? let them. In fact, encourage them all to come and do their thing. It's all good in a SOAK test, even the most evil-doers of them all, the fish botters. If it's found on Live, bring it on).

    In failure analysis, there is an amazing truism that runs contrary to "common sense"; the higher the volume traffic gets cranked up to, spread and hitting on a diverse range of the code base, also dramatically increases the raw volume of ZERO probability event occurrence (you know, "this should never happen" type logic failures, where it only takes one of those to ruin everybody's day on Live). It goes to 11 for a good reason...

    We know this should never happen (because statistical analysis is the word of god, right?), but under heavy load it does happen (ignoring this fact will earn you a quick trip down that famous river in Africa. Which river? more on that later). And the higher the load, the higher the raw occurrence of these "things that should never happen". Being unprepared for that fact, leaves one a little like Custer at the Little Big Horn; "where did all these Indians come from?" Zero probability does not mean NEVER. An infinity of "bad" can, and will, happen inside that 0. Knowing that is more than half of the battle...

    Now, nobody in their right mind would ever bring an unbaked cake to a public test event, throwing an untested product into a "bed of nails", SOAK test environment (see note below). So, all of the unit, function, system, regression, and integration testing takes place well out of sight from the public eye, and long before ever attempting a stress or load test using public resources. (but none of the internal test stages can prepare a "system" for Live like a semi-public bed of nails, which has increased load levels; though not actual "live" levels, so it can never be "perfect").

    Bringing an unbaked cake to a test event like that ensures only one thing; when the switch gets hit ON, and the thing bootstraps into Live, CHAOS will win the day.
    In the words of DirectTV, "Don't be a weinie and let CHAOS win the day, test your junk prior to dropping it like a hot rock on the test kit". Otherwise, "You've won a free trip! A lifetime spent traveling down a beautiful river in Africa, skating away on the thin ice of a most awesome river".

    The hydrological moment: Which river? Da Nile, of course. "Skating a-way-a. Skating a-way-a. Skating away, on the thin ice of a new day" (did I mention being a professional test engineer makes one crazy and old long before their time? But if hellbent on doing it, a destruction test engineer is something to be. Getting paid for blowing stuff up is so much fun...)
    The take-away prize: Never, ever, blame the "traffic" for a zero probability event occurrence. Ever. That leads to wimping out next time and lowering the volume, which actually makes things worse, not better. Crank it up to MAX, and let's jam!
    "If it breaks, it breaks, but know this, we learn more from failure than we ever can from success". Failure is a stairway (and there is no where else to go but up), success is but a rut (and gets surrounded by a phalanx of mindless body guards, forming total resistance to ANY change. And if life has taught us nothing else, change is coming to us all)...
    NOTE: some of the code bases I've created (all mission critical as they involved risking human life), each in excess of 1 million lines of code, could be bug checked, and things found wrong, until infinity squares. It's just the way it is. In professional services, each succeeding 9 after 99.99, costs million of dollars in budget to achieve (and exponentially increases in base cost for each additional 9). Each organization must answer for themselves if another "9" is worth the investment. So, typically, the budgets are spent stamping out system killers and the blatantly obvious with the available money, and take out the others (the low impact, yet irritating stuff) on the "long fly", so to speak, during future maintenance cycles...

    Now, it's good when folks find more bugs, faults, typos, et al, during a public test; however, that's not the primary objective of a semi-public SOAK test.

    "So what you're identifying as a problem, I simply know as traffic. And traffic is the king in a SOAK test..."
    Last edited by MadManAcrossTheWater; 07-17-2015 at 06:47 AM.

  7.   Click here to go to the next Rift Team post in this thread.   #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by jana4u View Post
    This is exactly how it works with me on PTS. I go to check wardrobe changes there. I even reported something about 2 weeks ago and it went life with that anyway. It is kinda discouraging to report stuff if it is not fixed even when reported... :-(
    was it a wardrobe bug? If so what was it? (you can PM it to me)
    Last edited by Marigold; 07-17-2015 at 07:31 AM.

  8. #8
    Telaran AsdMike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marigold View Post
    was it a wardrobe bug? If so what was it? (you can PM it to me)

    Is she trolling you? lol

    Anyway, we all know the PTS doesn't catch all the bugs because it is not like an actual live server. If they give people incentives (like in game things) to complete new content and report bugs, you would see PTS could become a better testing ground.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by AsdMike View Post
    Is she trolling you? lol

    Anyway, we all know the PTS doesn't catch all the bugs because it is not like an actual live server. If they give people incentives (like in game things) to complete new content and report bugs, you would see PTS could become a better testing ground.
    Because yeah, wanting actually working content isn't enough of an incentive for people to contribute in any meaningful fashion.

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  10. #10
    General of Telara
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    People don't seem to understand how programs work in the real world. You can write a program and test it for 10 years. You will find all sorts of bugs right away and less the more you test it. So at the end of 10 years you don't find any more bugs so the program must be bug free. Just to be sure you send it out to a few dozen people to test is some more. All of a sudden there are several new bugs in the software. Ok, fix the bugs and continue having your group bug test for 5 years. After 5 years you don't see any more bugs so you release it to the public and guess what, more bugs are discovered.

    There are only so many variations of computer setups in any testing group. Your test group will never be able to account for the way the software will interact with all the different configurations of computer and user interaction that is out in the real world. So you could test the software for 15 years and still there will be bugs that don't get discovered until it is released to the wild.

    The only way that Trion can find some of these bugs is to release the software on the public servers.

    Is it annoying that the bugs are there? Sure, but that is software (never going to be 100 percent bug free).

    Would you rather just live with the bugs for a week until the next hotfix? Probably not (depending on the exact bug).

    Will some of these bugs cause the servers to cack once in awhile? Probably.


    Sorry for such a long post but I was getting a little upset with all the people complaining about problems with a major update.

    P.S. Also for all the groups complaining that the problems are affecting their Raiding schedule it is kind of your own fault for scheduling the Raid on a patch day when you know there can be issues.

  11.   This is the last Rift Team post in this thread.   #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by AsdMike View Post
    Is she trolling you? lol
    nope!!!!!

  12. #12
    Soulwalker
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    Default This is......

    Quote Originally Posted by MadManAcrossTheWater View Post
    Lessons from the War on Bugs, Faults, and Coldstarts...

    Actually, what these individuals "doing their own thing" contribute to a public test is important, and is a direct contribution to testing (though it's mostly passive). The individuals, no matter their focus, represent one primary element to a public test...

    TRAFFIC (and there is no substitute)
    So if raiders wanna raid, let them. Quest doers? let them. In fact, encourage them all to come and do their thing. It's all good in a SOAK test, even the most evil-doers of them all, the fish botters. If it's found on Live, bring it on).

    In failure analysis, there is an amazing truism that runs contrary to "common sense"; the higher the volume traffic gets cranked up to, spread and hitting on a diverse range of the code base, also dramatically increases the raw volume of ZERO probability event occurrence (you know, "this should never happen" type logic failures, where it only takes one of those to ruin everybody's day on Live). It goes to 11 for a good reason...

    We know this should never happen (because statistical analysis is the word of god, right?), but under heavy load it does happen (ignoring this fact will earn you a quick trip down that famous river in Africa. Which river? more on that later). And the higher the load, the higher the raw occurrence of these "things that should never happen". Being unprepared for that fact, leaves one a little like Custer at the Little Big Horn; "where did all these Indians come from?" Zero probability does not mean NEVER. An infinity of "bad" can, and will, happen inside that 0. Knowing that is more than half of the battle...

    Now, nobody in their right mind would ever bring an unbaked cake to a public test event, throwing an untested product into a "bed of nails", SOAK test environment (see note below). So, all of the unit, function, system, regression, and integration testing takes place well out of sight from the public eye, and long before ever attempting a stress or load test using public resources. (but none of the internal test stages can prepare a "system" for Live like a semi-public bed of nails, which has increased load levels; though not actual "live" levels, so it can never be "perfect").

    Bringing an unbaked cake to a test event like that ensures only one thing; when the switch gets hit ON, and the thing bootstraps into Live, CHAOS will win the day.
    In the words of DirectTV, "Don't be a weinie and let CHAOS win the day, test your junk prior to dropping it like a hot rock on the test kit". Otherwise, "You've won a free trip! A lifetime spent traveling down a beautiful river in Africa, skating away on the thin ice of a most awesome river".

    The hydrological moment: Which river? Da Nile, of course. "Skating a-way-a. Skating a-way-a. Skating away, on the thin ice of a new day" (did I mention being a professional test engineer makes one crazy and old long before their time? But if hellbent on doing it, a destruction test engineer is something to be. Getting paid for blowing stuff up is so much fun...)
    The take-away prize: Never, ever, blame the "traffic" for a zero probability event occurrence. Ever. That leads to wimping out next time and lowering the volume, which actually makes things worse, not better. Crank it up to MAX, and let's jam!
    "If it breaks, it breaks, but know this, we learn more from failure than we ever can from success". Failure is a stairway (and there is no where else to go but up), success is but a rut (and gets surrounded by a phalanx of mindless body guards, forming total resistance to ANY change. And if life has taught us nothing else, change is coming to us all)...
    NOTE: some of the code bases I've created (all mission critical as they involved risking human life), each in excess of 1 million lines of code, could be bug checked, and things found wrong, until infinity squares. It's just the way it is. In professional services, each succeeding 9 after 99.99, costs million of dollars in budget to achieve (and exponentially increases in base cost for each additional 9). Each organization must answer for themselves if another "9" is worth the investment. So, typically, the budgets are spent stamping out system killers and the blatantly obvious with the available money, and take out the others (the low impact, yet irritating stuff) on the "long fly", so to speak, during future maintenance cycles...

    Now, it's good when folks find more bugs, faults, typos, et al, during a public test; however, that's not the primary objective of a semi-public SOAK test.

    "So what you're identifying as a problem, I simply know as traffic. And traffic is the king in a SOAK test..."
    an absolutely BRILLIANT post...I highly enjoyed it and my mind danced through it like a child through the rows of the candy section....very informative, eye-opening and thought provoking....thanks for the great read, sir!

  13. #13
    Shield of Telara
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    I think they've used test servers only to launch stuff and parts of it got bugged anyway before.
    Last edited by Lienda; 07-17-2015 at 10:40 AM.
    Apparently, I cheered about the last green puzzle piece for nothing. I can't play now at all.

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