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Thread: if only

  1. #1
    Shadowlander
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    Default if only

    they can reorder the bosses in RoF. and not put ungolock in first boss.
    There will already be more opportunity for people to gear up

  2. #2
    Rift Disciple Robokapp's Avatar
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    god forbid you do 2 mechanics right.

    more gear would surely make getting out of those circles easier.

  3. #3
    Plane Touched
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robokapp View Post
    god forbid you do 2 mechanics right.

    more gear would surely make getting out of those circles easier.
    Did you ever go with a casual guild into RoF? Your statements on this say: NO.

    Please do it and you will see that there are a bunch of mechanics (mostly not the red circles) where casuals struggle. I could tell you but you wont turst me if you dont see it with your own eyes.

  4. #4
    Phs
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    There's casual and then there's inept.
    "Welcome to the Rhen of Fate, I'm Ungolok and this is a mechanic."
    Move red, press door, interrupt, turn boss, kill add.

  5. #5
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    Stop using casual as an excuse I am in a casual guild (we raid 1 night a week for 2 hours) we have ungolock down.
    I know that there are some of you that believe fully that a guild of millionaires is going to appear on day one and down all the content.

    ~Daglar

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phs View Post
    There's casual and then there's inept.
    "Welcome to the Rhen of Fate, I'm Ungolok and this is a mechanic."
    Move red, press door, interrupt, turn boss, kill add.
    Like i told go out and play with casuals.

    I can tell you why casuals struggle here.
    - 1st this Boss is completly "Tab"-unfriendly. Where you played 100 hours with tabbing suddenly you only can use your mouse / mark1 makro / tar makro
    - 2nd if your tank is new to this Boss or semigood, he won't pull the adds, pull the shark, kick the shark, open the cage, turn the boss away at once.
    - 3rd you share mechanics like the kick or the addpull on other players that also struggle with some mechanics. For example: You cannot easily kick the shark during addburning phase. Suddenly one player needs a focus target makro and a focus kick.
    - 4th adds have to die as late as possible before the cage phase. You need to know how fast the add can be burned down, that leads to a good groupbuild that does not change every week.
    - 5th all the damage the tank gets during add + shark phase needs a coordination between tank and defiler. Defiler is a role most casuals dont even have.
    - 6th the tank healer has suddenly also to heal groupmembers that have dots on the cagephase. Most healers struggle with that at first.
    - 7th the support opening the left (second) cage has to look out for his HP. Positioning is here very important as the support has to run LoS opening the cage.
    - 8th nearly everything is unforgiveable on this boss. Your group needs 100% concentration till the end. One fail can lead to an instant wipe.

    And there are some more why this boss is hard for casuals. Dont try to argue, go and play with casuals.

  7. #7
    Phs
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    Quote Originally Posted by esc2heaven View Post
    Like i told go out and play with casuals.

    I can tell you why casuals struggle here.
    - 1st this Boss is completly "Tab"-unfriendly. Where you played 100 hours with tabbing suddenly you only can use your mouse / mark1 makro / tar makro
    - 2nd if your tank is new to this Boss or semigood, he won't pull the adds, pull the shark, kick the shark, open the cage, turn the boss away at once.
    - 3rd you share mechanics like the kick or the addpull on other players that also struggle with some mechanics. For example: You cannot easily kick the shark during addburning phase. Suddenly one player needs a focus target makro and a focus kick.
    - 4th adds have to die as late as possible before the cage phase. You need to know how fast the add can be burned down, that leads to a good groupbuild that does not change every week.
    - 5th all the damage the tank gets during add + shark phase needs a coordination between tank and defiler. Defiler is a role most casuals dont even have.
    - 6th the tank healer has suddenly also to heal groupmembers that have dots on the cagephase. Most healers struggle with that at first.
    - 7th the support opening the left (second) cage has to look out for his HP. Positioning is here very important as the support has to run LoS opening the cage.
    - 8th nearly everything is unforgiveable on this boss. Your group needs 100% concentration till the end. One fail can lead to an instant wipe.

    And there are some more why this boss is hard for casuals. Dont try to argue, go and play with casuals.
    1. Learn to Click
    2. Blaming the tank when: Someone pulls an add wrong. DPS can't kill it quick enough. DPS too inept to interrupt Shark.
    3. People can't use a focus interrupt macro?
    4. Crap DPS
    5. >Implying you even need a defiler.
    6. Bad raid healers who can't ST people?
    7. Not using a bard/someone without the dot + HP hp/self heals to do left cage?
    8. That's a raid for you. This isn't a dungeon anymore.

    You are confusing casual with bad players.
    Last edited by Phs; 03-18-2015 at 05:00 AM.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phs View Post
    1. Learn to Click
    2. Blaming the tank when: Someone pulls an add wrong. DPS can't kill it quick enough. DPS too inept to interrupt Shark.
    3. People can't use a focus interrupt macro?
    4. Crap DPS
    5. >Implying you even need a defiler.
    6. Bad raid healers who can't ST people?
    7. Not using a bard/someone without the dot + HP hp/self heals to do left cage?
    8. That's a raid for you. This isn't a dungeon anymore.

    You are confusing casual with bad players.
    No you are confusing great players (have been in raids before NT) with casuals.

    1. When did you use mouseclicks for targeting before RoF
    2. ??
    3. When did you use focus kick before RoF. When do you ever use focus before RoF?
    4. Crap DPS because casuals dont play BiS role with BiS rotation
    5. You need if you aren't highequipped and / or notably good at playing your role
    6. When did you use any mouseover macros or addons as a tank healer before RoF?
    7. No because no
    8. Oh tell me more about how many one shot mechanics the rest of the bosses bring in RoF.

    That you try to argue all this called points just states what i said. This boss is way to hard for casuals as an entrance to raidprogression
    Last edited by esc2heaven; 03-18-2015 at 05:27 AM.

  9. #9
    Phs
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    casuals =/= lazy, bad, stupid, inept, poor players

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phs View Post
    casuals =/= lazy, bad, stupid, inept, poor players
    here take my like because i agree with you.

  11. #11
    General of Telara saviktkr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by esc2heaven View Post
    Like i told go out and play with casuals.

    I can tell you why casuals struggle here.
    - 1st this Boss is completly "Tab"-unfriendly. Where you played 100 hours with tabbing suddenly you only can use your mouse / mark1 makro / tar makro
    - 2nd if your tank is new to this Boss or semigood, he won't pull the adds, pull the shark, kick the shark, open the cage, turn the boss away at once.
    - 3rd you share mechanics like the kick or the addpull on other players that also struggle with some mechanics. For example: You cannot easily kick the shark during addburning phase. Suddenly one player needs a focus target makro and a focus kick.
    - 4th adds have to die as late as possible before the cage phase. You need to know how fast the add can be burned down, that leads to a good groupbuild that does not change every week.
    - 5th all the damage the tank gets during add + shark phase needs a coordination between tank and defiler. Defiler is a role most casuals dont even have.
    - 6th the tank healer has suddenly also to heal groupmembers that have dots on the cagephase. Most healers struggle with that at first.
    - 7th the support opening the left (second) cage has to look out for his HP. Positioning is here very important as the support has to run LoS opening the cage.
    - 8th nearly everything is unforgiveable on this boss. Your group needs 100% concentration till the end. One fail can lead to an instant wipe.

    And there are some more why this boss is hard for casuals. Dont try to argue, go and play with casuals.
    1. Tabbing to adds causes no problem unless you have a ranged auto attack. If you have a ranged auto attack, well then certainly tabbing is bad. If you use active abilities without first looking at what you are targeting, that is a bigger problem. You could also make the boss your focus target and reselect the boss with the focus hotkey or by clicking on the focus window.
    2. Our tank does not pull the adds on Ungolok. This is because doing so would force the raid to be closer to the boss than some people feel comfortable with. We have a DPSer pull the Mindless Spawnling into the middle of the group. We have two DPSers who help interrupt the shark. Our tank also does not open any cages as Dire Corruption on the shark caused unnecessary Mindless Spawnling agro. Instead, we have one support open cage #2 and one DPS open cages #1 and #3.
    3. There is no reason that everyone needs to switch to the Mindless Spawnling.
    4. They need to die such that the stacks of venomous barb are not too high. This is true. However, the Building Strength / Pressurized Blast come at the same times every fight. It should take no more than one or two pulls to determine how much time it takes to kill the spawnlings. Subtract that time from first cage phase. Subtract five more seconds for safety. In case it helps you, our Spawnling pull times are 0:30, 1:20, 2:10, 3:00, 3:40, 4:20, 5:00, 5:40, etc. as needed. There is a reduction from 50 seconds to 40 seconds at the 3:00 mark due to that being progressively closer to the Breaking Loose phase. During that phase, you will not need to worry about the cages for one minute.
    5. We do not use a defiler. If the tank is taking too much damage, it is because he should not be tanking the Spawnling. With only the boss and shark, the primary source of damage is the Captive Terror. However, the Spawnlings increase in damage per attack on the same target with the first hit being ~ 4k, then 8k, 12k, etc. Once again, this is why we have a DPS or healer pull the Spawnling. While this person might die if the group takes too long to kill the Spawnling, this can be offset by using stuns, roots, etc.
    6. Yes. The tank healer may need to heal people with barbs during the pressure phase. However, besides the three blasts themselves, there should be no other source of damage at this point so what else will the tank healer be doing? Shuffling minions?
    7. What you call the second cage is in fact our cage #3. Nonetheless, this is offset by having the raid healer move to Ungolok's melee range during the pressure phase.
    8. This is not true. We have had kills where people have died to Fatal Currents (red circles), the harpoon pull, venomous barbs, etc. While the fight is a lot easier if no one dies, it is not a prerequisite.
    What you are describing is what we call the Razor's Edge. When the performance of a group verges on the collective requirement for an encounter, concepts such as luck, morale, reflex, and latency become dominant factors in determination of the outcome. This is natural in any progression whether it be by pugs, casuals, hardcore guilds, etc. The person in charge of leading the raid is responsible for finding ways to increase the total performance of the group or seek alternate solutions to various mechanics. You will notice that I cited methods for doing things that differ from those of many guides. That is because I personally was required to adjust strategies for our raid makeup prior to our first kill. We do it all the time. For the record, we are currently working on killing Jinoscoth in a way that I doubt many other guilds do. This is because we are trying to adjust our strategy to fit our raid instead of adjusting our raid to fit a strategy. Sometimes, this can make all the difference.
    Savik of Greybriar
    Guild Leader, TKagi Ro (Level 30)
    3/3 BoS

  12. #12
    Rift Chaser Amerinan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by esc2heaven View Post
    No you are confusing great players (have been in raids before NT) with casuals.

    1. When did you use mouseclicks for targeting before RoF
    2. ??
    3. When did you use focus kick before RoF. When do you ever use focus before RoF?
    4. Crap DPS because casuals dont play BiS role with BiS rotation
    5. You need if you aren't highequipped and / or notably good at playing your role
    6. When did you use any mouseover macros or addons as a tank healer before RoF?
    7. No because no
    8. Oh tell me more about how many one shot mechanics the rest of the bosses bring in RoF.

    That you try to argue all this called points just states what i said. This boss is way to hard for casuals as an entrance to raidprogression
    1. Create a targeting macro or when you hit 'tab' actually make sure you are targeting the right mob before attacking "ohhh no that requires thought"
    2. Everyone can help int the shard was his only point.
    3. FT- Artifex Zaviel needed to interrupt Iota and Zeta so they didn't heal. Even in this expac. Houndmaster in Gyle focus in the big dog that does the one interruptible ability in the fight.
    4. No one is forcing people to play crap roles, nor does the fight require BiS roles it just makes it easier if you use them.
    5. IF the tank and puri manage CDs you don't need it.
    6. Umm every other raid/Dungeon/DRR anything really.
    7. That was the most solid argument ever /sarcasam. You presented a problem and Phs gave a solution and your answer is no.... seems legit.
    8. Let's see, Drekanoth - don't dps hard enough on the world collapser and you die. Don't avoid the zone of death and you die, Don't intercept Doom that person dies. On to Finric- 2+ people miss jump and you die unless OMG leet heals and big cd used ex. Flame of Life, don't dps the corals fast enough and sacrafise takes to long you will die because enrage.
    Amerinan@Deepwood <Divine Fury>
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    Quote Originally Posted by paschl View Post
    Random troll. August 2014 - August 2015
    You will be missed.

  13. #13
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    Thanks for all the tipps you guys give. Seriously this may help some of the casuals out there.
    We cleared RoF some time ago so we have no problem with Ungolok (on our first kills we made AoE specs for maximum dps and we pulled the adds direct after cagephase). I just wanted to show on how many "mechanics" casual guilds struggle on this boss. It is not that one of this "8" is the problem. It is all of them together at the first boss.

    Whoever will say Ungolok has the right difficulty for casuals as a raidstart must be crazy.

  14. #14
    Champion of Telara Exxyy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by esc2heaven View Post
    Thanks for all the tipps you guys give. Seriously this may help some of the casuals out there.
    We cleared RoF some time ago so we have no problem with Ungolok (on our first kills we made AoE specs for maximum dps and we pulled the adds direct after cagephase). I just wanted to show on how many "mechanics" casual guilds struggle on this boss. It is not that one of this "8" is the problem. It is all of them together at the first boss.

    Whoever will say Ungolok has the right difficulty for casuals as a raidstart must be crazy.
    I agree, Ungolok is way too painful for a 1st 10 man boss

    Way too unforgiving
    Way too many to **** up

    I went high one night, on healing, in a very casual/decent group
    And we wiped 10 times, dues to all different mechanics, different stress
    Different mistakes,

    1 mistake leads to a complete wipe, its very hard to overcome it

    I see him more as a 2nd or possibly 3rd boss in a 10 man like that

    Every guild that i see, that kills Ungolok knocks 2nd and 3rd with ease, and generally Finric not far after

    Its very demanding, I used to be a good raider, And its just unforgiving
    You need the 10 persons to be on top of their game, Just for the first boss, its a bit over the top

    But anyway, they will obviously tweak it a bit, when they release a new 10 man

    For Elite gamers, They wont have trouble with him, But its not what we're talking when we're casuals

    Casuals aint Elites

    They might have been elites in the past, but not anymore?

    Sincerely, Exxy

  15. #15
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    Even though Unglok it's not that hard he is right

    Unglock Mechanic check: 10+
    2nd boss mechanic check: 2

    The 2nd boss is way easier than Ung

    With my guild Unglok is the only boss that we did 3 healers for the battle rez - having this gives us a sure one shot even when people mess up

    With that said with a good tank this fight shouldn't be hard, but there is a learning curve to tanking this boss. Every tank who did unglok has wiped on him at least 3-5 times (unless they have dpsed before), meaning if you bring a new tank in be ready to wipe in order for the tank to learn his mechanics.

    By the way to all you people who say Unglok is easy
    then why did he take the longest to beat out of all ROF bosses??
    It seems that since you put stuff on farm you forget about the past struggles
    Last edited by SmAcAholic; 03-18-2015 at 07:24 AM.

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