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  Click here to go to the first Rift Team post in this thread.   Thread: Minion Task rewards nerfed into oblivion?

  1. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ocho View Post
    Things in MMOs change. If you purchase the Dream Souls, and Oracle receives balance changes, that's part of playing the game. Now if you have something you'd like to see done with minions, that's a better area to focus your feedback.
    Dude, you should stay away from crisis management, you tend to antagonize the crowd.

    If you build a system, monetize it and extremely overtune it to make people spend money, and then wait to nerf it until the sales slow down, then you are using bush league sales tactics.

    However, **** does happen sometimes, as per below post. I don't know if that's the case here, or if you guys were told to wait with fixes until sales slowed down, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. Just don't tell me that what happened is ok and we should focus on other things.

    Quote Originally Posted by Snedhepl View Post
    First let me clarify my role in this: I'm the engineer behind the minion system. I do things beyond the minions, and have other things under my watch as well. Posting on the forums is something I do in addition to my work. That being said, I care very much about the minion system and want to do what I can to make the minion system transparent.

    That being said, I'm not a designer. My input is important, valued and generally listened to. This is especially true as I know quite a bit about minion system in great detail. However even if I was a designer, this ultimately is a cooperative effort over here at the Trion offices. And despite the cries to the contrary, we want to make things fun and enjoyable. We want to make things that people can use for free, have fun with, and feel like if they spent money they got the value they wanted.

    With all that out of the way, on what happened here:

    On the rewards; we've had the suspicion that the minion system was giving out too much rewards since about two weeks after launch, but it wasn't something we were overly concerned with. It took some time, but our crafting designer looked into it. There were some talks (I wasn't directly involved, as I said, I'm not a designer) and it was decided to reduce the rewards because with the amount of rewards being given out it devalued those very rewards.

    Ultimately there was a minor miscommunication; One part was how much to reduce, and the other part was the specifics of how to reduce it on the data side. It's not the kind of thing we like, especially given how well minions have been doing both from a technical standpoint and an enjoyment standpoint, but things like this do happen every so often. Immediately after the hotfix several people brought up the issue. Why several people? Because it's not just players who like the minion system. It's very popular here at the office as well and many devs play with the Minions system.

    So we put together a hotfix to adjust the minion rewards back up. It was pretty much the very first thing done in the morning on Wednesday. Don't take this to mean we're done however. We (mainly the crafting designer and I) are still working on the rewards and tuning them. There's a lot of math that goes on behind the scenes as well as trying to figure out hard answers to soft questions (e.g. "About how many nodes should an 8 hour mission be worth?") .

    Long story short:
    There was a miscommunication. It sucks. We put out a fix to get things into a more reasonable state. We're still working on it. You are being heard. We do care.

  2. #122
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    While I really appreciate the Minion creator coming here and addressing this issue with us (thats really cool imho) it doesnt change the fact I would have never spent money at all on this system as it is in place now. I unlocked all slots, bought a couple premium minion cards and the Christmas package which tbh, is more than I spend in my P2P MMO which gives me virtually everything in the game save for a few mounts.

    Ive been very happy with RIFT and this will most likely be my new MMO home. I even dont mind paying for patron (effectively the same price as a sub in my P2P game) AND use the ca$h $hop on occasion. I have spent well over $100 this month getting set up for rift. Bought the classic edition, the xpac, and $70 in credits- A good bit of which was used on Minions due to the fact that after playing with the system- I enjoyed it and the rewards. There is no way in hell I would have bought it with real money under this new system.

    Yes, MMOs change, evolve, ebb and flow. been playing MMOs since UO so I understand that. What is new to me is this Ca$h $hop "F2P" idea. Bringing real money into the equation above and beyond a sub (i.e. Or patron)means I have an extra expectation for that item which I wouldnt have under a straight Sub (i.e. Pay $15/month for everything- No paying for extras or shortcuts).

    I would like a refund on the slots I have purchased and the minions- However, I am a realist and know that isnt happening (and knew when I purchased the items) however the way this came down, the bait and switch tactic has eroded my trust. MY wallet is closed. I honestly cannot trust a system such as this with real money.

    I will still play and probably even still stay a patron until ive leveled everyone. But no more extras unless and until this is actually fixed to my satisfaction (which will probably be- Never) and I wpould likely have spent an extra $20 a month towards the cash shop once I was fully established in the game (on tgop of patron and the dream souls I had planned on buying)

    -It is what it is.,,

    Again,I think its really cool the minion creator posted here and I also understand this mess isnt his fault.

    -Thanks for what its worth.

  3. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zodis View Post
    ^ Pretty much if this was done, or if we were at least told it's still under review and to not get our hopes up...... this thread would not be here.
    Theyve said more or less since minions came out that the rewards would keep being retuned. Notoriety ones got hit a couple of times, I believe 15 minute ones were over-rewarding and also got tweaked.

    So I don't really see how this caught people so much off guard, just the multiplier was off.

  4. #124
    Rift Chaser Hellishly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ocho View Post
    Things in MMOs change. If you purchase the Dream Souls, and Oracle receives balance changes, that's part of playing the game. Now if you have something you'd like to see done with minions, that's a better area to focus your feedback.
    We understand that things in MMO's change Ocho.
    But to make it comparable to what you (Trion) have done with the Minion system and the nerfs, it would not be as the situation given above, it would be that a player purchased the Dream Soul pack, and then you decided that well 4 souls is too "over-tuned", so you take the most popular one away, and then nerf the rest.

    I'm sorry, but the way Minions has been handled it really is smacking of a bait and switch cash grab. Trion introduced the system, let it run just long enough to sucker in the maximum number of people to buy slots, and minions, and now nerfs it into oblivion, where it no longer feels like a rewarding past-time.
    Last edited by Hellishly; 12-11-2014 at 02:19 PM.

  5. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by Llwellyn View Post
    Which P2P MMO are you referring to in your post? If you say Wartune, or any other R2/7Road game - and are really trying to say that ongoing retuning of the minion system rewards comes within the same universe as all (or even any one instance) of the customer-hostile actions and downright shady BS that R2/7R have pulled - I will just absolutely fall out of this chair, either in disbelief or from laughing too hard, or both... and you will owe me for a doctor's visit if I hit my head on the floor when I do.

    MMO game systems are constantly evolving. Placing a price tag on something doesn't freeze it in time and lock it in so it can never be changed. If things are affecting game balance in a negative way, they need to be changed for the good of the game, even if we paid money for them. This is just the way the free-to-play model works.

    You aren't paying for a physical good - you are paying for something mutable that evolves over time by its very nature, even if it's a single, virtual good. That virtual good is part of an ever-changing universe and doesn't exist in a vacuum - it may have to be adjusted relative to the other game systems at any point.

    There isn't even anything outright deceptive about this in the least. You paid money for minions - you still have all of your minions. None of them were altered one iota. You paid money for minion slots - you still have multiple slots; the same number of slots. You're still going to benefit from having both by gaining materials while you are doing other things - something you could not do before this system was implemented. You are creating value out of thin air, and you don't even have to be online to do it.

    Out of all of the changes that have been made with 3.0 and since - I am really trying to understand why this is the one that now has people screaming for refunds and running for the pitchforks. I am beginning to think they are not able to act on anything whatsoever without agitating some portion of the playerbase - which is not a good thing for us, or them, whatsoever.
    We can talk about issues with other games on their forums. =P

    -Note: Im not giving other games my $$$, that has been going to Rift.

    That has now changed based on RIFT and their actions with these minions.

    -That is all.

    -Good Day.

    P.S. You may disagree all you want but I hope you spend the money I WONT be spending to make up for the projected loss... Otherwise I will voice my concern, close my wallet and vote with my dollar.. Even if YOU dont agree with my reasons.
    Last edited by SaintPhillip; 12-11-2014 at 02:26 PM.

  6. #126
    Rift Disciple Llwellyn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hellishly View Post
    We understand that things in MMO's change Ocho.
    But to make it comparable to what you (Trion) have done with the Minion system and the nerfs, it would not be as the situation given above, it would be that a player purchased the Dream Soul pack, and then you decided that well 4 souls is too "over-tuned", so you take the most popular one away, and then nerf the rest.

    I'm sorry, but the way Minions has been handled it really is smacking of a bait and switch cash grab. Trion introduced the system, let it run just long enough to sucker in the maximum number of people to buy slots, and minions, and now nerfs it into oblivion, where it no longer feels like a rewarding past-time.
    See my previous post. That's not a valid analogy either - they didn't take away any slots, or any of your minions, so it wouldn't compare at all to selling 4 souls and then removing one and leaving you with 3.

    Minions are a pastime? They work while you are doing other things and generate literal value out of thin air in the process. They are a fun addition to the game - but a pastime they are not because they are passive. I love my minions - and paid for all of the slots - and I am not feeling slighted by this in the least. I'm not trying to belittle those of you that do feel that way - I really am trying to have someone explain this in a way where I will be able to see this from the other point of view.
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  7. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by Llwellyn View Post
    Minions are a pastime? They work while you are doing other things and generate literal value out of thin air in the process. They are a fun addition to the game - but a pastime they are not because they are passive. I love my minions - and paid for all of the slots - and I am not feeling slighted by this in the least. I'm not trying to belittle those of you that do feel that way - I really am trying to have someone explain this in a way where I will be able to see this from the other point of view.
    Okay, so I sent all 4 minions I have on 10 hour missions last night.
    Just logged in and this is the results:
    Minion 1: 5 stars crafting - Thalasite Ore x2, Thalasite Crystal x2, Sarleaf
    Minion 2: 6 stars crafting - Thalasite Ore x4, Thalasite Crystal x2, Sarleaf x5
    Minion 3: 6 stars crafting - Tooled Fabled Leather x3, Capricious Star, Diaphanous Cloth x5
    Minion 4: 6 stars artifact - Attainium Crystal, Ferrous Armband (white)

    On each of these minion adventures I spent currency to send them out. The first two were Adventurine, the second two were Credits. Now can you seriously tell me that what I got as returns were worth 234 credits, and 500 adventurine?
    Where is the thin air on this? I PAID for these adventures (just as I paid for the minion slots, and the minions), and the returns were not even in the ballpark of what I would accept as worth the investment, particularly the artifact one.

    Change the situation to the Stock Market to give a real world example. You buy shares in a company that is profitable and gives decent returns on your investment (which by the way "works while you are doing other things and generates literal value out of thin air in the process. They are a fun addition to normal daily life - but a pastime they are not because they are passive."). One day the CEO decides they will make a large change that will see ordinary share values markedly decrease in value to the point where they are no longer giving returns at all. The way you put it, you would find that perfectly acceptable as it is a passive return.

    Believe it or not, some people do primarily play the minion system while logged in doing predominantly short adventures, and sending them on a long one just prior to log out. I would call that a pastime. And just like with shares in my example above, some people DO invest REAL money into minions.

  8. #128
    Ascendant Shattered's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ToxicWaltz View Post
    So I'm going to reply to this post, but am not calling you out in particular. This its just a convenient post that seems to be echoing the general thought in thus thread...

    How deep is your head buried in the sand? I kinda hope you are trolling. It has been stated several times over the last few days that the crafting system is getting attention, especially with the addition of new sinks for materials. Sned stated so no less than 10 minutes ago in this very thread, and the dev in charge of the revamp has identified himself to the community as the one who will do so.
    I am aware that crafting is being looked at (and fixes can't come soon enough). I posted feedback to that thread. My point was, that it's crafting that needs fixing, not Minions. Minions were fine the way they were, and it seemed Trion thought so as well since it went so long the way it was. After a while of running the two Minion slots I had (one free, one from purchasing a CE), I purchased two more slots, based on that.

    So yes, hopefully with 3.1, crafting will be in the condition it probably should have been when 3.0 was released. Hopefully, that will take care of the glut of materials which we've been experiencing. I attribute that glut to factors other than Minions and would like to see Minion adventures returned to their previous productivity, so that they are again worth the investment we put into them.
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  9. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snedhepl View Post
    Just to give you all a further update:

    I just finished up sitting down with our crafting designer and going carefully over a the rewards for Artifact, Hunting, Assassination and Harvesting adventures.

    Regarding the Artifact adventures: As has been stated some artifact rewards are broken (high star long and promotional ones). This is getting fixed. In examining these loot tables we also noted that 15 minute artifact missions were paying out far too much. We're preparing to revamp the payouts for all artifact adventures. 15m artifact adventures will have reduced rewards (they were not touched previously). Long and Promotional artifact adventures will be fixed and rebalanced. The precise details aren't finalized yet, so I will wait till we have the work done before going into details. I personally think that what we intend to do will not only fix the issues but make artifact adventures feel better overall.

    Hunting/Assassination/Harvesting: These rewards tables are also getting changed and will give out more rewards then they are right now. They are not going back to what they were on Tuesday, but we also are not happy with where they're at now.

    These changes are all fairly extensive and we want to take the time to do them correctly. However we are not assuming these will be the last changes. We will continue to monitor the state of the economy and minions together.
    So after nerfing the craft adventures now the artefacts 15 min getting nerfed. Why in the world do you only cripple the useful adventures? Cut down the damn dim adventures if you need to bash something. Or reduce the notority adventures because the rewards there are already useless so reducing them even more doesn't hurt.

  10. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lufia5 View Post
    So after nerfing the craft adventures now the artefacts 15 min getting nerfed. Why in the world do you only cripple the useful adventures? Cut down the damn dim adventures if you need to bash something. Or reduce the notority adventures because the rewards there are already useless so reducing them even more doesn't hurt.
    Well, I can't agree with you about the dimension adventures, but I'd be perfectly happy to NEVER see another notoriety one.

    I'm not really fussed about any of this though - it'll all come out in the wash. And if it helps raise the AH prices on the mats some - personally I'll be happy with that. I gave up crafting for Lent. Or something.
    Last edited by Narcise; 12-11-2014 at 04:28 PM.
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  11. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shattered View Post
    I am aware that crafting is being looked at (and fixes can't come soon enough). I posted feedback to that thread. My point was, that it's crafting that needs fixing, not Minions. Minions were fine the way they were, and it seemed Trion thought so as well since it went so long the way it was. After a while of running the two Minion slots I had (one free, one from purchasing a CE), I purchased two more slots, based on that.

    So yes, hopefully with 3.1, crafting will be in the condition it probably should have been when 3.0 was released. Hopefully, that will take care of the glut of materials which we've been experiencing. I attribute that glut to factors other than Minions and would like to see Minion adventures returned to their previous productivity, so that they are again worth the investment we put into them.
    I have to agree with what your saying here.
    I basically say what the problem is in my post back on page 9. Since I have all Gathering skills on my Main, I looked to my Minions alot to fill the gaps for my Gathering (instead of dealing with the frustration of trying to Gather in the Open world).

    Minions werent the Main problem here, yet they got nerfed instead of the Trion Team just fixing the real problem. The real problem lies in the Crafting system itsself. It hasnt gotten the much needed love it needs.

    So alot of Crafters have resorted to becoming Gathers. They Gather mats and make money by throwing them in the AH. We all do have to make money ingame somehow, Right?

    And the other problem lies in: Before 3.0 - Areas after Freemarch, werent Ghost Towns, now they are and its turned into Here a Rift, There a Rift , Everywhere a Rift, Rift. Same with Invasions. Its became extremely hard to get anything done in the areas above the 6-20 level range since 3.0 went live. Unless you do it on a higher level character & dont mentor down, then you can actually get something done. Because not everyone wants to spend all their time in a Zone just running from Rift to Rift or Rift to Invasion & then Boom Zone Event. Ugh

    That is why I said what I said back on my post about how frustrating Gathering can be now.
    And the reason why I refuse to play this game again till these issues are fixed properly.

    Oh yeah and the Lag. Which I dealt with as long as I had an Incentive to WANT to play Rift. Which I no longer have.


    * Note: I paid to unlock all the Minion slots after the free ones, and spent tons on 30+ Minions, For what? To help me gather things of different levels using my Main & alts, while I tried to fight off all the unneccessary mobs we have now.

    I understand the game is called Rift. But seriously? You might as well just take out all the quests & other content and just have us running around from Rift to Invasion to Zone Event.
    Such a let down
    Last edited by Shontaya; 12-11-2014 at 04:50 PM.

  12. #132
    Ascendant Narcise's Avatar
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    Shontaya - I'm not having any issues with gathering personally. Maybe it depends on shard?
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  13. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by Llwellyn View Post
    MMO game systems are constantly evolving. Placing a price tag on something doesn't freeze it in time and lock it in so it can never be changed. If things are affecting game balance in a negative way, they need to be changed for the good of the game, even if we paid money for them. This is just the way the free-to-play model works.
    I believe we are talking about two different things here.

    On one hand there is the evolution, things like fine-tuning, adjusting, consolidation etc. it's a fairly slow process that constantly takes place.

    The minion system on the other hand seems to have been released in a faulty state. Snedhepl's comments read like a list of mistakes, communication errors, unchecked loot tables etc. basically an unfinished system that was released before it was done and tested. Now, if things like that get fixed it's not evolution, it's bug fixing. And one has to wonder why it took so long to get noticed that rewards are not "in line with the intended payouts" (paraphrased from patch notes).

    I bought extra slots, too and although I don't want my money back I really do hope they make this worth my credits eventually.

  14. #134
    Telaran Shontaya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Narcise View Post
    Shontaya - I'm not having any issues with gathering personally. Maybe it depends on shard?
    Yeah failed to note I am on Deepwood, sorry about that.

    It also could be the times that I try to farm as I was on at different times each day. On Eastern Time here in the USA. And I know that on the days when I could be up into the wee hours of the morning is when I got the most Open World farming done. Other times ... well

  15. #135
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    Well, you could hopp over to another shard for a while, and see if it's better there, it's still free (for now... but who knows, maybe we have to pay for that in the future too... ) to jump the shard once per week.

    B2T
    I'm really surprised they didn't hold back these changes AFTER they introduced the Fae Yule Minion Adventure Pack into the Rift Store...
    At this point, why should anyone still buy minion packs like that with the new minion system now in place?

    Not to forget, the resource prices will pretty much stay the same, the farmers will just switch back to full gathering nodes mode again to cover the losses from the minion adventure system.
    Which means, more bots running around probably and of course more problems and complains from this change, that will hit the regular players, that only have a few hours time per day to play.
    But auctionhouse prices for crafting resources going up? Wishfull thinking at it's best...

    Btw. when will the Manugo thingy get nerfed into uselessness as well? Standing around, pushing some buttons and you get some decent reward... we can't have that here!
    Player have to WORK for their reward, otherwise it's not FUN for them.
    Last edited by Schneeball; 12-11-2014 at 08:38 PM.
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