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Thread: Welcome to the grey area of P2W

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    Telaran agumentas's Avatar
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    Default Welcome to the grey area of P2W

    I would like to address what is seen as *****ing and whining by much of the community here on the forums regarding the recent negative views directed toward Trion. Often times when discussing a free to play game people, other players, as well as developers see players in one of two lights, either you are a whale who spends money on gear, cosmetic items, or just because you like to, or you are a f2p player; who is parasitic at worst and fodder for the whales at best.

    When people have been complaining about the high cost, in void stones, of PW:W or earrings everyone says pay up, or grind. Regardless the message is stop whining. I would like to address this issue further and present a very large portion of the Rift population and welcome you all to the grey area.

    You see the community that plays Rift is not just black and white. Like much of life there exists a grey area where many members of the community fall. In this area are people who may be patrons, or they may be f2p players who have made purchases in the past or present. This area is where the majority of the community exists.

    Some of us have been patrons for years; I myself have been with Rift since beta. I played during the p2p. I pre-ordered and played during SL. I continued to sub after the game shifted to f2p, which I was/am against. When they announced a new expansion I was thrilled, excited, and ready for new adventures. What was delivered however is a slap in the face to players like me. I have been a supportive member of the game, both financially and socially. I pay a sub, and I have bought credits for cosmetic purchases. Many of us are in this category where we believe in a game and support it, without dropping hundreds of dollars per transaction.

    When NT launched we have been nickeled and dimmed. We paid for souls that were “extra” as in not part of the expansion. Every other game however would have included them into the purchase of an xpac, which we are being charged for on top of purchasing souls. We are blocked from PW:W because even though we have supported Rift throughout our gameplay experiences, we have not supported it “enough”. I know that PW:W is available for either money, or extensive grinding, but why when we support the game in the downtime, between new souls and expansions, are we being restricted here? Why is our continued support worth less than spastic splurges of capital? The same thing can be asked of earring slots.

    The problem here is not one of entitlement it is one of appreciation. Trion is willing to take our money on a consistent basis because we believe in them, but they are not willing to support our contributions by making us included. The fact that patrons get nothing and the overwhelming response seems to be “spend more, grind, or shut up” is a middle finger to those who have supported Rift.

    What I propose is to give PW:W to patrons. If this seems cheap or unfair to others award it based upon sub durations. For instance only award it to members who have been patrons for X number of months. Take instant earring slots away from people at level 60 and award it at 65, or change the void stone requirement to one of planarite. Make it so that people can have the same access to it at all times. This elitism that is being propagated by cash walls or time sinks is counterproductive toward what should be your overall financial goals.

    It is time Trion, and the rest of the community acknowledges that the majority of players are not either F2P or whales. We fall in between. We have/are supporting Rift financially. We may not be willing to spend in excess of $100 to bypass grinds. Let’s face it, not everyone in America falls into the category of rich or poor. Many of us are in between and find it harder to justify spending large sums of money, on top of already having spent cash on souls, cosmetics, or patron status. Do not alienate where the majority of Americans dwell by continuing to implement these cash walls/time sinks.

    Some will say “here goes another whining entitlement post”. That is your opinion. I have been with this game for a long time however and this is the first time I have felt such anger at Trion. These are my opinions, these are my suggestions. Take them or leave them, but what I am entitled to is my right to voice them. Thanks for stopping by.
    Last edited by agumentas; 10-25-2014 at 10:04 AM.

  2. #2
    Telaran
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    Quote Originally Posted by agumentas View Post
    I would like to address what is seen as *****ing and whining by much of the community here on the forums regarding the recent negative views directed toward Trion. Often times when discussing a free to play game people, other players, as well as developers see players in one of two lights, either you are a whale who spends money on gear, cosmetic items, or just because you like to, or you are a f2p player; who is parasitic at worst and fodder for the whales at best.

    When people have been complaining about the high cost, in void stones, of PW:W or earrings everyone says pay up, or grind. Regardless the message is stop whining. I would like to address this issue further and present a very large portion of the Rift population and welcome you all to the grey area.

    You see the community that plays Rift is not just black and white. Like much of life there exists a grey area where many members of the community fall. In this area are people who may be patrons, or they may be f2p players who have made purchases in the past or present. This area is where the majority of the community exists.

    Some of us have been patrons for years; I myself have been with Rift since beta. I played during the p2p. I pre-ordered and played during SL. I continued to sub after the game shifted to f2p, which I was/am against. When they announced a new expansion I was thrilled, excited, and ready for new adventures. What was delivered however is a slap in the face to players like me. I have been a supportive member of the game, both financially and socially. I pay a sub, and I have bought credits for cosmetic purchases. Many of us are in this category where we believe in a game and support it, without dropping hundreds of dollars per transaction.

    When NT launched we have been nickeled and dimmed. We paid for souls that were “extra” as in not part of the expansion. Every other game however would have included them into the purchase of an xpac, which we are being charged for on top of purchasing souls. We are blocked from PW:W because even though we have supported Rift throughout our gameplay experiences, we have not supported it “enough”. I know that PW:W is available for either money, or extensive grinding, but why when we support the game in the downtime, between new souls and expansions, are we being restricted here? Why is our continued support worth less than spastic splurges of capital? The same thing can be asked of earring slots.

    The problem here is not one of entitlement it is one of appreciation. Trion is willing to take our money on a consistent basis because we believe in them, but they are not willing to support our contributions by making us included. The fact that patrons get nothing and the overwhelming response seems to be “spend more, grind, or shut up” is a middle finger to those who have supported Rift.

    What I propose is to give PW:W to patrons. If this seems cheap or unfair to others award it based upon sub durations. For instance only award it to members who have been patrons for X number of months. Take instant earring slots away from people at level 60 and award it at 65, or change the void stone requirement to one of planarite. Make it so that people can have the same access to it at all times. This elitism that is being propagated by cash walls or time sinks is counterproductive toward what should be your overall financial goals.

    It is time Trion, and the rest of the community acknowledges that the majority of players are not either F2P or whales. We fall in between. We have/are supporting Rift financially. We may not be willing to spend in excess of $100 to bypass grinds. Let’s face it, not everyone in America falls into the category of rich or poor. Many of us are in between and find it harder to justify spending large sums of money, on top of already having spent cash on souls, cosmetics, or patron status. Do not alienate where the majority of Americans dwell by continuing to implement these cash walls/time sinks.

    Some will say “here goes another whining entitlement post”. That is your opinion. I have been with this game for a long time however and this is the first time I have felt such anger at Trion. These are my opinions, these are my suggestions. Take them or leave them, but what I am entitled to is my right to voice them. Thanks for stopping by.
    I think that what are you saying is mostly true. Long time patrons should get PW:W and earring slots. But I'm afraid that most of the people who are whining are free players, or new players.

    But at the same time trion needs to make CEs attractive. Unlike what many players think, I think that it's not fluffy staff that sell. Not in a game like rift. How many pink unicorn mount can you sell in a progression mmorpg? People who can spend will gladly pay to skip the grind or to simply be able to compete with guys that can play 100hr every week.

    I think that microtransactions only works in games with no progression. In this case, everybody has the same, and to buy something that makes you unique has sense.
    Last edited by psychaos; 10-25-2014 at 10:27 AM.

  3. #3
    RIFT Guide Writer
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    Nope. Disagree. You're paying for patron benefits, not the expac and most definitely not the souls, PW:W, and earrings. I can count on one hand, with fingers left over, the amount of games that will give you a full expac for free when you pay the sub.
    Meciel - Mage - Defer Death - Greybriar
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    Plane Walker Tigsman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by evantide View Post
    Nope. Disagree. You're paying for patron benefits, not the expac and most definitely not the souls, PW:W, and earrings. I can count on one hand, with fingers left over, the amount of games that will give you a full expac for free when you pay the sub.
    Thank you, I was trying to think of how to respond with brevity. Well done.

  5. #5
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    You could always take this as a statement from Trion what their so-called "loyalty" is worth to themselves.

    Personally, I find it hard to understand why people pay for patron. If I wanted to support them with my money, I would spend part of my monthly budget on the store, and save the rest of the money for this sort of shady business they are doing now and then.

  6. #6
    Rift Disciple Vixiar's Avatar
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    As of recent Rift has a horrible F2P model that won't sustain itself very much longer. The population of the game has dwindled significantly and i don't ever see it gaining momentum again with the business decisions they make. When F2P first came out, i enjoyed spending money on the small things that didn't even matter. Now i simply refuse as i've seen the game progressively get worse and worse with their "F2P" model (ex. lock boxes, now earring slots/PW:W). It's sad to see a potentially great expansion overshadowed by the greed of a company that will lead to its eventual downfall as more and more people continue to quit the game.

    TLDR F2P only succeeds when people WANT to spend money on your game, not when you force them into it. Live and learn Trion.
    Last edited by Vixiar; 10-25-2014 at 11:53 AM.

  7. #7
    Telaran Snore's Avatar
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    I just find it funny that to play this game properly and with no artificial gates (Void Stone cap), it's much more expensive than the same deal you'd get with WoW.
    Last edited by Snore; 10-25-2014 at 12:16 PM.

  8. #8
    Telaran Enepttastic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by evantide View Post
    Nope. Disagree. You're paying for patron benefits, not the expac and most definitely not the souls, PW:W, and earrings. I can count on one hand, with fingers left over, the amount of games that will give you a full expac for free when you pay the sub.
    As a recently returned player who's pretty much a F2P player(I bought the base CE back when Rift wasn't F2P), I can see the arguments on either side about giving that to patrons. Hell, last I knew TSW gave subs a monthly stipend of cash-currency to buy any of their expansions when they come out, useable for the cash shop on months there isn't one(Granted, that may have changed by now). However, I do agree that the debate favors the, "Don't give patrons" side.

    That said, given that buying the Dream Souls is essentially paying for the NT expansion, anyone who's bought it at the current price should have the earring and planewalker perks. At 5k credits, Trion's makes between about $35-$40 off the pack. That's well within range for an MMO's expansion's pricing and should allow players who bought it to have all of the base perks to it.

    That said, how earrings are done right now, Rift has stepped into the grey area of P2W. Planewalker doesn't bother me since the void-stone purchase is account-wide. That's fine and dandy, however as it stands the only way for a player to have earrings as they level is via purchasing a "CE" and that doesn't sit well with me. IMO, they should make that part of the dream soul pack due to the reasoning I stated above, and/or(preferably and) make it possible to send unlock the earring slot on an alt by either making the void-stone purchase a usable item that's BoA(thus allowing it to be sent to a low-leveled alt) or account wide. I myself wouldn't have a problem with it the BoA option although I know people will still cringe at the cost.

  9. #9
    Telaran
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enepttastic View Post
    As a recently returned player who's pretty much a F2P player(I bought the base CE back when Rift wasn't F2P), I can see the arguments on either side about giving that to patrons. Hell, last I knew TSW gave subs a monthly stipend of cash-currency to buy any of their expansions when they come out, useable for the cash shop on months there isn't one(Granted, that may have changed by now). However, I do agree that the debate favors the, "Don't give patrons" side.

    That said, given that buying the Dream Souls is essentially paying for the NT expansion, anyone who's bought it at the current price should have the earring and planewalker perks. At 5k credits, Trion's makes between about $35-$40 off the pack. That's well within range for an MMO's expansion's pricing and should allow players who bought it to have all of the base perks to it.

    That said, how earrings are done right now, Rift has stepped into the grey area of P2W. Planewalker doesn't bother me since the void-stone purchase is account-wide. That's fine and dandy, however as it stands the only way for a player to have earrings as they level is via purchasing a "CE" and that doesn't sit well with me. IMO, they should make that part of the dream soul pack due to the reasoning I stated above, and/or(preferably and) make it possible to send unlock the earring slot on an alt by either making the void-stone purchase a usable item that's BoA(thus allowing it to be sent to a low-leveled alt) or account wide. I myself wouldn't have a problem with it the BoA option although I know people will still cringe at the cost.
    Well, from my experience in my journey to 65, I never dropped a earring. So I really don't think trion design the games around them. They are not mandatory for the first month of content. Then, when raiding will start. who must have them will have them.

    sorry for my bad english

  10. #10
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    Earrings are supposed to replace CQ power. If you didn't get CQ power before, you shouldn't care about earrings now.
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  11. #11
    Champion of Telara Veldan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vixiar View Post
    TLDR F2P only succeeds when people WANT to spend money on your game, not when you force them into it. Live and learn Trion.
    This, exactly this is what I think goes wrong with the F2P nowadays.

  12. #12
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    The op loses all credibility when he starts saying stuff like "We may not be willing to spend in excess of $100 to bypass grinds". Its 25$ to skip the grind, 25$ there is no grey area. We are not talking about a lot of money here.

    Also why do people keep equating the new souls to the expac they where out long before NT release.
    I know that there are some of you that believe fully that a guild of millionaires is going to appear on day one and down all the content.

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    Quote Originally Posted by evantide View Post
    Earrings are supposed to replace CQ power. If you didn't get CQ power before, you shouldn't care about earrings now.
    I seriously doubt this to be true.

    On another note I am going to have to agree with the OP and others who have been siding with him. The current model of the game favors people who literally pash cash to get ahead. which may seem like a good business idea since people want to be comptetive but when you screw your loyal fans/player base you lose a huge and majority portion of your income. sorry but those who disagree you have to think about it like this.

    If you have a business and you have loyal customers who come in to purchase goods every day not alot but about 10$ or so here or there. (about 100$ a month) and then you make changes that favor the customer who come in and spend 500$ once a year. tell me which one makes more sense? do you want 100$ a month times >51% of your customer base? or 500$ once a year times <49%?

    From a business perspective id take the loyal customers because once they leave your business crashes and crumbles. its simple economics really. You dont EVER screw over the loyal customers especially when they are the majority.

    By the way the dream souls pack including the earings and such I would have to agree with since in reality it does cost the same as an expansion.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by psychaos View Post
    Well, from my experience in my journey to 65, I never dropped a earring. So I really don't think trion design the games around them. They are not mandatory for the first month of content. Then, when raiding will start. who must have them will have them.

    sorry for my bad english
    I can confirm there are earring drops before 65. Happened to 2 of my characters so far, and I just barely play now (again)
    I won the game by leaving it. Have fun with your cash grabbing nightmare.
    Wonder if this could happen to Trion or if it's limited to companies with deeper pockets:
    http://www.asa.org.uk/Rulings/Adjudi...x#.VGS-T_nF-So

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by mauzer80 View Post
    The op loses all credibility when he starts saying stuff like "We may not be willing to spend in excess of $100 to bypass grinds". Its 25$ to skip the grind, 25$ there is no grey area. We are not talking about a lot of money here.

    Also why do people keep equating the new souls to the expac they where out long before NT release.
    1. So he's wrong on the money amount. Big deal. The fact that the slot can be more easily unlocked with your credit card than your game play is part of the problem.
    2.
    a. Because every time someone posts about selling the souls individually, or cheaper, people say that's how we pay for the expansion.
    b. Because the Dream soul pack was released early but was still considered part of the expansion

    If 2a is true, and enough souls sell to pay for the expansion, why do we need to keep paying for the expansion over and over again? How many times do you pay for an expansion with most games? Once? Plus a monthly fee that's not specific to the expansion if it's a sub model? Yeah I'd rather do that than this.
    I won the game by leaving it. Have fun with your cash grabbing nightmare.
    Wonder if this could happen to Trion or if it's limited to companies with deeper pockets:
    http://www.asa.org.uk/Rulings/Adjudi...x#.VGS-T_nF-So

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