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Thread: Why P2W isn't bad.

  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gwenddydd View Post
    /shakes head
    That's it? Sheesh, I expected more of a response than that.

    /shakes head

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Necalli View Post
    So we've gotten past the denial stage and now we're onto acceptance?
    If you're referring to those that seems to support this, I don't think it was ever denial. At least not on my part. I consider it optional and nothing more.

  3. #18
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    What I'm getting at is that when it comes to PvE content, it shouldn't and won't have a negative effect on your enjoyment of the game if another player is using equipment purchased from the store, since PvE content is group/team-based.

    Sure, you might be not be topping damage meters (though, as VolitheBear said, equipping store-bought gear doesn't necessarily make the player good), but on the plus side, see the initial points that were made.

  4. #19
    Rift Disciple Gwenddydd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Okay View Post
    What I'm getting at is that when it comes to PvE content, it shouldn't and won't have a negative effect on your enjoyment of the game if another player is using equipment purchased from the store, since PvE content is group/team-based.

    Sure, you might be not be topping damage meters (though, as VolitheBear said, equipping store-bought gear doesn't necessarily make the player good), but on the plus side, see the initial points that were made.
    Yes, it will have a negative effect on my enjoyment of the game if another player is using equipment purchased from the store.

    I know you can't understand why and it's been explained by many, MANY posters already in other threads which you clearly have skipped over.

    I run a raid guild and I raid lead several of our teams.

    SOME of our raiders will be ready to go to the first T1 10man raid very soon after launch because they PAID for gear (and upgrades, etc)

    SOME of our raiders will have to wait and deal with a VERY long grind to prepare because they CAN'T pay for gear and upgrades, etc.

    SOME of our raid leaders will be ready.

    SOME of our raid leaders will have to grind.

    Back at launch and in SL - everyone was on the same gear path at the same time. Now, some of my very best raiders - who have earned every piece of gear they have through time, effort and skill - will not be going to raid for quite some time. They get benched and have to wait their teammates go on without them. That is ridiculously frustrating for a RAIDER (not a casual player or world event type player).

    For me, I have to find players to fill the gaps on the raid teams left open by raiders that cannot buy their way into raid or they can't go either because there just aren't enough people.

    But now the raider pool is filled with people who bought their gear instead of farming it through world content and experts (learning new mechanics and perfecting their builds, etc along the way) and the screening process has to be pretty harsh.

    This complicates everything from MY point of view. My own ability to raid, the amount of work I have to do to balance all these raid teams (or just cut most of them out entirely) and a new app process to find new raiders.

    On top of that, the playerbase will most likely decline because of these changes thereby limiting the amount of available players to begin with.

    I don't play a solo version of Rift. I enjoy some of the solo content (crafting, farming, questing), but I play for GROUP content, primarily raiding - competitive raiding (i.e. we were hoping for a shot at some world or shard firsts with this expansion, that WILL NEVER happen now unless my entire team of raiders spends hundreds of dollars to gear - which again, will NEVER happen).

    Do you see the issue now?

  5. #20
    Plane Walker Alatarv's Avatar
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    There seems to be a fundamental misconception about F2P games supported by their cash shop.

    In a subscription game, the goal is to keep you playing. The longer you play, the more they make. In a F2P game with a cash shop, the goal is to keep you spending. That's quite different.

    There is no harm if players leave, unless they cause spenders to leave also. Angry players claim this will be the case. Trion Worlds seems to believe differently. Time will tell who was right.

    I'm betting the game does fine. I don't believe the spenders who are supporting the game are here because there's a big population. But that opinion is just as speculative as those on the other side of the debate, and thus just as worthless.

  6. #21
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    I believe I'm pretty aligned with Gwenddydd on this. In my opinion, the most fundamental problem with P2W that I think the OP and some other posters are missing has to do with competition—competition between players as well as between guilds.

    To put this in out-of-RIFT terms, imagine you're playing checkers. Both you and your competitor are playing the same game. But let's say your competitor pays $50 to get three moves before you get to play your first. Does that seem acceptable? I would guess most people who value competition would say, "no."

    No one cares if you pay extra to have green colored checkers. No one cares of you pay to play checkers on a marble board. But many people care intensely if you're paying to get a head start in the game. And when you sell things in the game that give you that kind of head start over those who have to earn it, it completely ruins the competition portion of the game for many people. And when you ruin the part that some people love, you eventually lose those players.
    Last edited by Hasmonean; 10-07-2014 at 11:03 AM.

  7. #22
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    Yeah, I get what you're saying, Gwen - that makes sense. I suppose my viewpoint is from a more casual angle, though I definitely see the implications for raiding guilds based on your post.

    Also, what Altarav said ^

    I'm sure Trion will come up with a suitable arrangement before release, or shortly after, when it's all in place... Maybe you can use this to your advantage and recruit members with the same approach as yours towards tackling the content.

  8. #23
    Rift Master GreatWhiteNinja's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hasmonean View Post
    I believe I'm pretty aligned with Gwenddydd on this. In my opinion, the most fundamental problem with P2W that I think the OP and some other posters are missing has to do with competitionócompetition between players as well as between guilds.

    To put this in out-of-RIFT terms, imagine you're playing checkers. Both you and your competitor are playing the same game. But let's say your competitor pays $50 to get three moves before you get to play your first. Does that seem acceptable? I would guess most people who value competition would say, "no."

    No one cares if you pay extra to have green colored checkers. No one cares of you pay to play checkers on a marble board. But many people care intensely if you're paying to get a head start in the game. And when you sell things in the game that give you that kind of head start over those who have to earn it, it completely ruins the competition portion of the game for many people. And when you ruin the part that some people love, you eventually lose those players.
    Perfect analogy /thread.

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by VolitheBear View Post
    Bads will be bads and having BiS cash shop gear won't help them.
    You better be a good Volibear player to have made that statement .

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hasmonean View Post
    I believe I'm pretty aligned with Gwenddydd on this. In my opinion, the most fundamental problem with P2W that I think the OP and some other posters are missing has to do with competitionócompetition between players as well as between guilds.

    To put this in out-of-RIFT terms, imagine you're playing checkers. Both you and your competitor are playing the same game. But let's say your competitor pays $50 to get three moves before you get to play your first. Does that seem acceptable? I would guess most people who value competition would say, "no."

    No one cares if you pay extra to have green colored checkers. No one cares of you pay to play checkers on a marble board. But many people care intensely if you're paying to get a head start in the game. And when you sell things in the game that give you that kind of head start over those who have to earn it, it completely ruins the competition portion of the game for many people. And when you ruin the part that some people love, you eventually lose those players.
    But I don't want to compete with you or anyone else for that matter. While I respect your competitive nature, I don't want it forced on me.

    Your analogy is slighted. Getting 3 extra moves can mean a great deal in checkers or chess but a single player getting the same gear sooner won't "win the game". Besides, a single player can't do anything in a raid setting w/o 19 other people. So he may get the expert gear faster but won't go any further until 19 others catch up.

    Believe it or not I respect both sides in the matter but I don't see much of a change. Maybe tweaks but I bet most of this stays the same for the launch of NT.

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gwenddydd View Post
    Yes, it will have a negative effect on my enjoyment of the game if another player is using equipment purchased from the store.

    I know you can't understand why and it's been explained by many, MANY posters already in other threads which you clearly have skipped over.

    I run a raid guild and I raid lead several of our teams.

    SOME of our raiders will be ready to go to the first T1 10man raid very soon after launch because they PAID for gear (and upgrades, etc)

    SOME of our raiders will have to wait and deal with a VERY long grind to prepare because they CAN'T pay for gear and upgrades, etc.

    SOME of our raid leaders will be ready.

    SOME of our raid leaders will have to grind.

    Back at launch and in SL - everyone was on the same gear path at the same time. Now, some of my very best raiders - who have earned every piece of gear they have through time, effort and skill - will not be going to raid for quite some time. They get benched and have to wait their teammates go on without them. That is ridiculously frustrating for a RAIDER (not a casual player or world event type player).

    For me, I have to find players to fill the gaps on the raid teams left open by raiders that cannot buy their way into raid or they can't go either because there just aren't enough people.

    But now the raider pool is filled with people who bought their gear instead of farming it through world content and experts (learning new mechanics and perfecting their builds, etc along the way) and the screening process has to be pretty harsh.

    This complicates everything from MY point of view. My own ability to raid, the amount of work I have to do to balance all these raid teams (or just cut most of them out entirely) and a new app process to find new raiders.

    On top of that, the playerbase will most likely decline because of these changes thereby limiting the amount of available players to begin with.

    I don't play a solo version of Rift. I enjoy some of the solo content (crafting, farming, questing), but I play for GROUP content, primarily raiding - competitive raiding (i.e. we were hoping for a shot at some world or shard firsts with this expansion, that WILL NEVER happen now unless my entire team of raiders spends hundreds of dollars to gear - which again, will NEVER happen).

    Do you see the issue now?
    Good explanation but either way your waiting since an entire raid won't be ready at the same time.

    Playing devils advocate here, I can buy expert gear, park my account for 3 months, come back and say I grinded it all and you may not know the difference. Heck, I may be good enough by watching some youtube videos on boss strats and actually help the raid.

    While that may not be a typical situation, I can see it happening.

    Again, good points and I see your issues but I do think this will be good for some players. Just not all of them (yourself included).

  12. #27
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    <snip>
    Quote Originally Posted by Gwenddydd View Post
    Do you see the issue now?
    </snip>

    I understand what you are saying and understand your concern. However...

    1) Not everyone in your guild is going to level at the same pace, not everyone is going to take a week off work (if they are employed) to grind it out
    2) The exact opposite argument can be said in your words for why equipment has to be able to be purchasable for your raiders that don't have the time to keep up with your grinders
    3) You are projecting potential problems that aren't verifiable. I have a large amount of faith that the devs have spent hours and hours in meetings discussing the issues and are making decisions based on the MAJORITY of the player base.

    The devs know that there are going to be people at level 65 ready to go into T1 about 8 hours after they open the servers. World first first boss kills will probably happen within the first week. They know and understand that a certain percentage of their player base is insane.

    So here is what is probably going to happen for your guild since you just presented the worst case scenario.

    You are going to get a handful of people to 65 very very quickly, these are probably your grinders and not your buyers. They are going to group up and tackle experts after runeing their gear to 800 hit. They are going to grind the hell out of those experts, and when they come up for air may go and start gathering for crafting and head for 450 in their crafts. During this time you are going to start having a trickle of others reaching 65, and you are going to integrate them into the expert farming. Remember, you may only get 7 random dungeon charges, but you can do them time and time again to your hearts content (and you get everyone into at least blue gear with 1000 hit/toughness). Once you get 20 people to that point (probably on day 4, maybe 5) you are going to hit the first T1. On day 3 you can hit the 10 man T1 because you will probably have enough at that point. Ohh, and that 10 man team, they are going to be your grinders, not your loot purchasers. The guys buying loot are going to be the ones coming online on day 4/5 when they hit 65 and see you are ready to start raiding.

    I expect to hear back from you on Tuesday October 28th about whether your prediction or my prediction was the correct one. Until that point in time we've got Schrodinger's cat situation going on. I'm not afraid to eat some humble pie if my prediction comes up wrong.

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave1780 View Post
    Getting 3 extra moves can mean a great deal in checkers or chess but a single player getting the same gear sooner won't "win the game".
    I hope you don't take this disrespectfully, because it's not intended to be, but this sentence reveals that you just don't get it. If the competition game is a DPS race every week between me and player X, and player X gets ahead in the gear race, he does indeed "win the game." Or if guild Y that is trying to get server firsts is so far behind guild Z in gear because several in guild Z bought gear, then guild Z does "win the game."

    Heck, even if you're in a guild that is not competing for server first (like most of us), this still applies. Why? Because guild progression is one of the top three things a person looks for when applying (the other two being raid times and guild rules). Guilds that are progressing faster have a huge advantage on recruitment, and thus are "winning the game."

    I understand and respect that these things are not your values. I hope you get to play by your rules and are happy because we need players like you here. Maybe you don't care about "winning the games" that others of us play. But many of us do, and at the end of the day the game needs players like you AND players like us.
    Last edited by Hasmonean; 10-07-2014 at 11:41 AM.

  14. #29
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    Hold on, let me make a october 2014 account to respond to this thread.
    <Coriolis>
    Archemys

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hasmonean View Post
    I hope you don't take this disrespectfully, because it's not intended to be, but this sentence reveals that you just don't get it. If the competition game is a DPS race every week between me and player X, and player X gets ahead in the gear race, he does indeed "win the game." Or if guild Y that is trying to get server firsts is so far behind guild Z in gear because several in guild Z bought gear, then guild Z does "win the game."

    Heck, even if you're in a guild that is not competing for server first (like most of us), this still applies. Why? Because guild progression is one of the top three things a person looks for when applying (the other two being raid times and guild rules). Guilds that are progressing faster have a huge advantage on recruitment, and thus are "winning the game."

    I understand and respect that these things are not your values. I hope you get to play by your rules and are happy because we need players like you here. Maybe you don't care about "winning the games" that others of us play. But many of us do, and at the end of the day the game needs players like you AND players like us.
    No offense taken and I do get it. I used to raid hard core back in vanilla wow and was in one of my servers leading guilds. Yes, it was competitive but everyone cannot be #1 on the charts. Someone has to be 2nd, 3rd, etc. Being last in a group of great people is nothing to be ashamed of.

    Now, if you make it ultra competitive, that's fine for you, your guild and everyone in it but I'm not part of it. That's why I'm OK with this even if I choose not to buy a CE.

    And yes, the game does need all types of players to survive. Not sure I would've done this if it was my call but I stand by my prior posts about liking options.

    Have you hard core players considered alternatives like giving priority to players that truly grinded their gear? I know some won't like it but it your guild and your rules.

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