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  Click here to go to the first Rift Team post in this thread.   Thread: Nightmare Tide: Gearing and You

  1. #1
    Ascendant Techie Will's Avatar
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    Default Nightmare Tide: Gearing and You

    So I've seen a number of posts over the past couple of days delving into how exactly players are going to get their gear in 3.0. I wanted to take the time to compile a factual piece for players to look at, and see how much (or how little) has changed.

    I would like to preface this entire write up with the fact that numbers have changed more in the past week than I can count, so if they're still out of line they may be adjusted. This is not just about numbers though, and you will see exactly what my own stance is on the subject.

    What gear is in Nightmare Tide?

    With Nightmare Tide comes something Trion has stated is Gear Unification. What does that mean? It means that there is no longer a divide between PvE and PvP gear. I personally think they would have been better off just saying valor and vengeance are removed instead of calling it unification, and it would have been more clear to the players.

    How do I get gear in Nightmare Tide?

    There are currently two distinct avenues to earn gear in Nightmare Tide. Through Void Stones or through currency (Abyssal Crusaders marks and Fragments of Horror) that is handed out with random dungeons/warfronts/weekly quests. For example:
    • A random dungeon gives 400 Abyssal Crusaders marks and 50 Fragments of Horror.
    • A random warfront win gives 400 Abyssal Crusaders marks and 50 Fragments of Horror.
    • Weekly PvP quests give 500 Abyssal Crusaders marks and 100 Fragments of Horror.
    • Weekly open world PvE quest gives give 500 Abyssal Crusaders marks and 100 Fragments of Horror in addition to 2,500 Void Stones.
    • Daily raid rifts give 500 Void Stones.
    • Weekly raid rift quest gives give 500 Abyssal Crusaders marks and 100 Fragments of Horror.
    • Weekly(assuming) Instant Adventure quest gives give 500 Abyssal Crusaders marks and 100 Fragments of Horror.

    I've heard about currency caps, what do they mean?

    Currently the currencies I've listed above are all capped on how many of them you can gain during a week. This does not mean they are capped at that amount, just that amount per week. For example, if you cap out void stones at 35,000 per week and the second week you cap it again you have 70,000 total.

    Currently the caps are the following:
    • 35,000 Void Stones per week.
    • 15,000 Abyssal Crusader's marks per week.
    • 4,500 Fragments of Horror per week.

    It's also important to note that the game does indeed alert players to how much of the cap they have remaining, so there's no guessing on when you get close to the cap for the week.

    How much does the gear cost?

    This has been the main fluctuation over the past few days. Gear is broken up into three categories: Open world gear, "Expert" level gear and "Raid" level gear.

    Open world gear costs:
    • Gloves/Belt/Boots 21,000 Void Stones
    • Shoulders/Helm 28,000 Void Stones
    • Chest/Legs 52,500 Void Stones

    Expert level gear costs:
    • Gloves/Belt/Boots 9,000 Abyssal Crusader's marks
    • Shoulders/Helm 12,000 Abyssal Crusader's marks
    • Chest/Legs 22,500 Abyssal Crusader's marks

    Raid level gear costs:
    • Gloves/Belt/Boots 8,550 Fragments of Horror
    • Shoulders/Helm 13,000 Fragments of Horror
    • Chest/Legs 16,500 Fragments of Horror

    What does this mean in terms of playtime?

    This is where my own main issue lies within gearing and 3.0. Gear Unification (or the removal of vengeance and valor) has a lot of benefits. Players who primarily play one part of the game can easily go back and forth across that imaginary fence. If I want to hop into PvP I do not need to grind out different gear. If a PvP player wants to hop into dungeons or raids, they do not have to grind out additional gear.

    But the problem, and what I feel is being overlooked, is the initial gearing process itself. Lets take a look at some potential scenarios with how the system is currently set up:
    • If a person only wants to run dungeons, and earn gear for those dungeons like they did in 1.x or 2.x, they would receive 2,800 Abyssal Crusader's marks per week from seven dungeons (not counting ten for patrons as not everyone is a patron). This is only 18.6% of the cap per week.
    • If the same person does all of that, plus their raid rift quest, instant adventure quest, and open world (complete zone events quest) they're up to 4,300. This is only 28.6% of the cap.
    • If a person only wants to run warfronts, they would earn the exact same 2,800 Abyssal Crusader's marks per week as above. Since the PvP weekly quests conveniently line up with their warfronts, they can extend that to 3,800 without doing any PvE content. This is only 25,3% of the cap.
    • If a person who runs the warfronts and PvP weeklies like above, plus does the open world quests (the three used in the second example) they're sitting at 5,300 or only 35.3% of the weekly cap.

    As you can see above, this presents a very blunt picture for currency acquisition in Nightmare Tide.

    But Will, why do we worry about the cap? Surely everyone shouldn't hit the cap each week, right?

    This is a true and false statement.

    You do not have to hit the cap each week, just like you never had to hit the weekly cap of dungeon or PvP marks in Storm Legion. The major difference here is the simple fact that the gear price is based on total available marks per week. Things are more expensive because we can earn more per week. To be as effective as you were at earning currency for your gear in Storm Legion, you will have to play undoubtedly more in Nightmare Tide to earn the gear.

    Lets look and see real numbers on how long this will take. The total cost for an expert level gear set would be 96,000 Abyssal Crusader's marks.

    Using the same examples as the last section, in respective order:
    • Dungeon-only: At 2,800 per week, it would require 35 weekly resets to obtain a full set of Expert level gear.
    • Dungeon and open world: At 4,300 per week, it would require 23 weekly resets to obtain a full set of Expert level gear.
    • PvP-only (warfronts and two weekly quests): At 3,800 per week, it would require 26 weekly resets to obtain a full set of Expert level gear.
    • PvP daily/weekly, and open world weeklies: At 5,300 per week, it would require 19 weekly resets to obtain a full set of Expert level gear.

    I'm the type of player that wants to maximize everything. How am I affected?

    Now here is the question I've been leading up to. Maximum effectiveness. We can see a clear discrepancy in the amount of time it takes for various players to obtain store gear above, but what happens when we have a player that actually wants to push that cap?

    2,800 from 7x Dungeons.
    2,800 from 7x Warfronts
    1,000 from PvP Weekly Quests
    1,500 from Open World Weekly Quests
    8,100 Abyssal Crusader's marks per week.

    At 8,100 Abyssal Crusader's marks per week, this would be 54% of their weekly cap. At this rate, it would take the player 12 weekly resets to obtain a full set of expert level gear. This of course involves double the work than any of the examples I gave above.

    Now, don't get me wrong. I'm not ignorant to the fact that there are players who enjoy mingling in between PvP and PvE. I enjoy random warfronts just as much as the next raider, and I'm sure there are some fairly hardcore PvP players who like to dabble in raids or dungeons.

    But the fact of the matter is, this system does not give us choices, it merely redefines what we need to do per week. What does that mean? It means that players, no matter how they played before 3.0, unless they were doing absolutely everything per week will now be less effective at playing the game and gearing their characters. This is a problem, and one that if left un-addressed will cause people to leave the game.

    You left out raid gear. Why?

    Because as much as the expert level gear might be a headache to think about, Raid Gear is even worse for certain types of players. We all know the currency gains from killing raid bosses is rather unique when compared to all of the quests and aspects of the game, and this number is not finalized yet. So it's impossible to total the amount up for players who will raid.

    Firstly, we found out through Daglar on one of the official live streams that Epic-Level (purple) Raid Gear can be used in war fronts.

    Since we can tally up people who only PvP, what will they earn?
    • PvP-only (warfronts and two weekly quests): 550 Fragments of Horror per week.
    • PvP-only plus the open world weekly quests: 850 Fragments of Horror per week.

    Remember, this level of raid gear can be used inside of PvP. Just how long would it take those players above to earn a single, cheapest piece of gear? 10 weeks. For the full set? 100 weeks, yes a hundred.

    Again, I will not tally up how much raid bosses drop per week as it is not finalized, but raid bosses do drop gear.

    What about open world gear?

    I want to start talking about this with one note. Players who want to gear up this way are at an immediate disadvantage (or advantage if you look at it the right way I suppose) in the fact they do not have structured quests to follow. They simply have a cap to hit. How many zone events, rifts, invasions, etc. do you have to kill/complete to get to the cap of 35,000 Void Stones? Who knows.

    Assuming you can hit that cap every week though, you can get your world gear set (224,000 Void Stones later) after 16 weekly resets. This may seem fast, but again there's only a few open world quests that give the currency.

    More importantly though, we cannot forget the fact that essences and synergy crystals use Void Stones (among other things such as the earring slot unlocks if you do not purchase a collector's edition). You're going to have to tack extra weeks onto that 16 because you need this gear (and every other type of player needs essences/crystals/etc. as well).

    Conclusion

    Nightmare Tide gearing is a vast departure from what we had in 1.x or 2.x. I've done a lot of thinking on this in the past few days and while I welcome change in most forms, this completely re-writes the book on how gearing will take place in the game. Is this a far enough departure away from the tried and true recipe to turn people off the game? I have no doubt in my mind people will leave over this.

    I do not want to come across as emotion filled or angry, but the current caps and currency amounts from activities do one thing. Force players to play every aspect of the game, regardless of if they enjoy it or not. I say force, because choice here is an illusion. A true choice would be an either or statement, such as I can do three warfronts and four dungeons and get rewards.

    I have suggestions for remedying the problems I see here, and I suspect at least some other players will have as well:
    • Reduce the cost of the gear so our choice of what portion of the game we want to play fills up the weekly cap. Example: Cap Abyssal Crusader's marks around 5,000 this would give 56% of the cap from doing 7 dungeons or 7 warfronts, or any mixture of the two like we see from doing the absolutely-everything example above in my post.
    • An alternative to reducing the gear cost is to increase the amount of Abyssal Crusader's marks gained from doing various dailies and quests. Example: Give 1,150 or so Abyssal Crusader's marks per dungeon or warfront, granting 8,050 per week from those alone or 53.6% of the weekly cap.
    • Put open world gear behind a new currency and remove the weekly cap on Void Stones. Add new daily or weekly quests for them to do to earn said currency. This would bring it in-line with how the other gear in the game is obtained. I understand the desire to not add in more currencies, but there already have been four PvP currencies killed off with 3.0, is one new currency added going to break the system?
    • As said above, remove the cap on Void Stones (with the open world gear safely out of the way). The cap hurts any type of player that needs multiple sigils (12 or 18 essences) and of course their synergy crystals. For just one sigil filled out with "best in slot" from the store, not even including prices for the upgrades to higher tiers you would need 236,250 Void Stones to complete one single sigil. That's still 15 weeks per sigil, and some people need three (tank/heals/DPS). Synergy crystals add on another 90,000 total (for all six) on top of that cost, for another three weeks. The Void Stone cap simply cannot stand.
    • Raid Gear should not be allowed inside of PvP, at least not at launch. Players who have access to raid content (meaning they have the 9 other or 19 other required individuals) will get at least a few pieces of gear before any pure PvP player even obtains one item.
    • The raid currency cap needs to be low enough that a person doing the 10-man and the 20-man in one week hits the cap. Even with a cap like this in place, players who raid are forced into doing absolutely every part of the game that gives the raid currency until they down more bosses in the instances. I would argue again, that raid currency should be removed from everything but raid boss kills (of course, as I said above restrict it from being used in PvP).

    There are amazing merits to Gear Unification, but it's going to be at least partially ignored because of the frustration and aggravation of how gear is obtained. I have no problem with playing the game to earn my gear, I do have a problem when what I used to do to obtain my gear is now only one third as effective as it was in 1.x or 2.x

    Please, Trion. Remember that Gear Unification does not mean Play-style Unification. Not everyone plays every part of the game. I think players should be partially rewarded if they want to do different parts of the game (see my above suggestion about making the cap low enough so it is hit through doing a player chosen amount of different activities) but we should have a choice. As it stands now, we are forced to do everything and anything to be as effective as we possibly can.


  2. #2
    RIFT Guide Writer intrinsc's Avatar
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    So, is this wall of text meant as an opinion piece dressed in an informational post? There is some nice information, but then there's your op at the end. If you want to inform people inform them without personal bias. IMO. Other than, good write.
    Last edited by intrinsc; 10-06-2014 at 03:01 PM.
    "I love being a father, but there are some things I miss: Silence, the absence of noise, one single moment undisturbed by the sounds of a childrens’ TV program called Doc McStuffins. There is no quiet anymore, there is only Doc McStuffins.
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  3. #3
    Ascendant Techie Will's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by intrinsc View Post
    So, is this wall of text meant as an opinion piece dressed in an informational post? There is some nice information, but then there's your op at the end. If you want to inform people inform them without personal bias. IMO. Other than, good write.
    This is informational. I'm merely attempting to display exactly how much players will be expected to do in the expansion. I feel that a lot of people will not know exactly how much they must do to obtain gear going into 3.0, as compared to 2.x or 1.x. This is to serve as both an eye opener for the community, and hopefully feedback for Trion.

    The only personal bias is my suggestions if you really want to point that out, but I would like people to suggest their own "fixes" for the issues at hand.
    Last edited by Techie Will; 10-06-2014 at 03:09 PM.


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    Shadowlander
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    Quote Originally Posted by intrinsc View Post
    So, is this wall of text meant as an opinion piece dressed in an informational post? There is some nice information, but then there's your op at the end. If you want to inform people inform them without personal bias. IMO. Other than, good write.
    Though, yes, he is stating his opinion on the entire mater, he is also taking it not as the standpoint as himself, but from a third person perspective. The people who already do all of that will not see it from the way he proposed but the players who simply don't enjoy pvp or pve, which i am going to assume is the majority of the community because the majority of the raiders on my guild roster, friends list, alt guild roster are very rarely doing anything that deals with pvp excluding conquest, even then they do it just often enough to maintain their CQ power. The issue brought up here is in fact a very real issue to the majority of the players and it can very easily hurt trion in a real way. Rift is their longest lasting and biggest source of income currently. If they turn a blind eye to something this large then there will be issues for both us the players and themselves the developers.

  5. #5
    Plane Touched Akamhara's Avatar
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    Will,

    Thank you for the post - it has been an eye opener. (No sarcasm).

    If only it had been a good one
    Nyathera, Kithra, Hekili, Nyalist @ Typhiria

  6. #6
    Ascendant Techie Will's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nixkev View Post
    Though, yes, he is stating his opinion on the entire mater, he is also taking it not as the standpoint as himself, but from a third person perspective. The people who already do all of that will not see it from the way he proposed but the players who simply don't enjoy pvp or pve, which i am going to assume is the majority of the community because the majority of the raiders on my guild roster, friends list, alt guild roster are very rarely doing anything that deals with pvp excluding conquest, even then they do it just often enough to maintain their CQ power. The issue brought up here is in fact a very real issue to the majority of the players and it can very easily hurt trion in a real way. Rift is their longest lasting and biggest source of income currently. If they turn a blind eye to something this large then there will be issues for both us the players and themselves the developers.
    Funny note about Conquest, there are weekly quests up for it as well (500/100 rewards just like the others) that I did not include in the totals since Conquest will be disabled for a few weeks after launch. It would actually add even more onto the total list of things you must do to get close to the cap.

    I have no doubt in my mind there is a large amount of the player base that dabbles in both sides of the fence in terms of content, but all of it? Absolutely all of it? I think the core problem here is the fact that with one set of gear, prices are based around how much we -can- earn through the week, so if players get a lot from doing all the content in the game the prices reflect that.


  7. #7
    Ascendant Techie Will's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Akamhara View Post
    Will,

    Thank you for the post - it has been an eye opener. (No sarcasm).

    If only it had been a good one
    This is the reason I wanted to make this post, to bring awareness to the community on what exactly is going on with gear. Some may not like it. I hope, however, that the community can come together with some great suggestions on how to fix this.

    Again, I like the idea of gear unification. I dislike the current method of obtaining that unified gear in a timely fashion.


  8. #8
    Plane Touched
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    Well written factual and i agree.

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    Champion of Telara dead2soon's Avatar
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    You should also mention that BIS lessers are

    54k vs each
    90k vs each for the upgrade accelerators
    so you'll need 864k per bis focus which with a cap of 32k per week
    so it will take you 27 weeks per focus.

    If you are someone like me that does healing, tanking and dps you can look forward to
    81 weeks (21 months) of void stone farming.

    This is only for your focus and does not include any synergy crystals or gear or take into account the rep grind.
    Last edited by dead2soon; 10-06-2014 at 03:32 PM.

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    RIFT Guide Writer intrinsc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Techie Will View Post
    This is informational. I'm merely attempting to display exactly how much players will be expected to do in the expansion. I feel that a lot of people will not know exactly how much they must do to obtain gear going into 3.0, as compared to 2.x or 1.x. This is to serve as both an eye opener for the community, and hopefully feedback for Trion.

    The only personal bias is my suggestions if you really want to point that out, but I would like people to suggest their own "fixes" for the issues at hand.
    That's what I thought. It's just that everything was numbers and then I get to the end and it's like "okay, here is my opinion". Maybe it's just me and I would have submitted feedback through official channels or made a different thread for feedback where it can be more focused rather than attached to an informational post. Just my 2 cents.
    Last edited by intrinsc; 10-06-2014 at 03:29 PM.
    "I love being a father, but there are some things I miss: Silence, the absence of noise, one single moment undisturbed by the sounds of a childrens’ TV program called Doc McStuffins. There is no quiet anymore, there is only Doc McStuffins.
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  11. #11
    Ascendant Techie Will's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by intrinsc View Post
    That's what I thought. It's just that everything was numbers and then I get to the end and it's like "okay, here is my opinion". Maybe it's just me and I would have submitted feedback through official channels or made a different thread for feedback where it can be more focused rather than attached to an informational post. Just my 2 cents.
    I've already sent my opinions not only in the 3.0 feedback forum, but through feedback on the PTS and emails. I did want to encourage community feedback here. I'm just one person, seeing other people respond has much more weight and the potential for more suggestions I cannot think of.


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    Telaran
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    While I haven't agreed (I dont think) with everything you have posted in the past I +1 this.

    Even if there was a way to do something I didnt care for as much but still being able to have something to do in the game I would- IE farm rep, crystals etc but having lots of stuff to keep me busy.

    *Cap is ridiculous on world event currency*

    With everything presented PLUS a cap on world events I feel like I am being hand-cuffed.

    If I bought a regular non F2P game I could spend my $15 a month plus original cost of game say $50- I would also get all prior content IE the souls in this case.

    There is so financial sensible alternative in this current model. Im not (even though I could) going to spend $500+ to gear- Not only that but for ME that would defeat the purpose of playing the game in the first place.

    So, and i doubt im alone, am going to have to:
    A> Find a game where im not limited to what I can do
    B. Suck it up and just play Rift a day or 2 per week- to cap
    C. Profit?

    It feels like someone placed a large delicious cookie on a plate then told me I could only take a bite a day until its gone.
    Last edited by oSUCCESS0; 10-06-2014 at 03:40 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Techie Will View Post
    This is the reason I wanted to make this post, to bring awareness to the community on what exactly is going on with gear. Some may not like it. I hope, however, that the community can come together with some great suggestions on how to fix this.

    Again, I like the idea of gear unification. I dislike the current method of obtaining that unified gear in a timely fashion.
    I'm mixed on gear unification. If I have read and understood it correctly, pvp folks will have to pve pretty hard to obtain their gear. PVE types will do what they've always done (except it will take far longer), with the exception of not having to worry about CQ power anymore. To people who are accustomed to having two types of gear and set their in-game identity by pvp accomplishments, unification could be seen as a psychological kick in the teeth. There's nothing to separate pve gear from pvp gear now. While I think that's a good thing in other regards (who really wants to carry around crystals for every situation, if they pvp and pve?), I think it will have a net negative effect on the pvp community. On the other hand, it does have its conveniences - crystals and trinkets for instance, less gear = more bag space. It might even level the playing field a bit on the pvp side of things, but that's more optimistic hope than anything grounded in fact so far.

    I believe I've made it clear where I stand on the Void Stone cap - I'm against it. Now I wasn't aware that doing all the daily/weekly content in the game (excepting raids), wouldn't put you at cap, so thank you for pointing that out. That makes the cap less of an issue, and the reward to cost ratio the bigger issue. Or maybe the bigger issue is the lack of a world currency. I got used to the screwy currency system by about level 25, I was happy to hear they are cutting back on currency types. But I doubt adding one world currency (something like IS, with similar rewards and no cap) would break the fewer currency ideal they're striving to achieve.

    I think about the 3 roles I have on all my characters, and I just saw someone quote 81 weeks for sigil/essences for that... that does not make me want to stick around. I'd rather beat by head against a brick wall than spending close to 2 years to be able to perform my roles in a game that's supposed to be fun. No thank you.

    If the cap is so much more than the game allows you to achieve without straight up grinding whatever content til your eyes bleed, it doesn't matter whether the cap stays or goes. But the costs don't need to be based on weekly cap, if weekly cap requires no-lifing to the extreme.

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    Rift Chaser Halowed's Avatar
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    Thank you for writing all of that out in a concise, clear, and thorough manner. And now I think I am firmly against this change because I am one of those players that dabbles in this and that, but doesn't play hardcore for hours on end, and I feel like I would be forced to do so with these new caps and prices.

    I know there's always a grind in games. But isn't the goal of the game to not make it feel like a grind? This just feels like Trion forcing your nose to the whetstone.

  15. #15
    Champion of Telara dead2soon's Avatar
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    I think one of the biggest problems is that they added world gear and made it good enough to require a cap but were too lazy to add a new currency for it. Things like synergy crystals and essences were always expensive but they didn't have a cap so you were free to grind events to get them. Now it's just not possible because the cap for gear is now being applied to essences and synergy crystals.

    For the most part multi role gearing is being killed off with time sinks which is a shame because I've always considered the soul system and multiple roles to be the heart of this game.

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