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  Click here to go to the first Rift Team post in this thread.   Thread: Nightmare Tide: Gearing and You

  1. #166
    Ascendant Ianto Jones's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soulshield View Post
    You could earn 2800 marks in SL per week and in NT you can earn 15000 marks.
    SL and NT expert gloves take both about 60% of the maximum of currency you can earn per week.
    You can always cut your playtime to get to the cap by investing in boosts.
    Except now the same currency is obtained from PvP and PvE, meaning that in order to hit that maximum gain rate you have to participate in both. This means that if people -- and specifically, PvPers -- continue to play the way that they did for SL, the actual rate of gain is far less, but the prices are still set assuming the maximum.

    Trion has devised a gearing system to punish people for enjoying the game they want to enjoy it. It's asinine and counter to all of their "you play your way" marketing. Coercion is not an effective means of player retention, and this do our content OR ELSE system certainly is coercive.

  2. #167
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    Quote Originally Posted by Techie Will View Post
    So I've seen a number of posts over the past couple of days delving into how exactly players are going to get their gear in 3.0. I wanted to take the time to compile a factual piece for players to look at, and see how much (or how little) has changed.

    I would like to preface this entire write up with the fact that numbers have changed more in the past week than I can count, so if they're still out of line they may be adjusted. This is not just about numbers though, and you will see exactly what my own stance is on the subject.

    What gear is in Nightmare Tide?

    With Nightmare Tide comes something Trion has stated is Gear Unification. What does that mean? It means that there is no longer a divide between PvE and PvP gear. I personally think they would have been better off just saying valor and vengeance are removed instead of calling it unification, and it would have been more clear to the players.

    How do I get gear in Nightmare Tide?

    There are currently two distinct avenues to earn gear in Nightmare Tide. Through Void Stones or through currency (Abyssal Crusaders marks and Fragments of Horror) that is handed out with random dungeons/warfronts/weekly quests. For example:
    • A random dungeon gives 400 Abyssal Crusaders marks and 50 Fragments of Horror.
    • A random warfront win gives 400 Abyssal Crusaders marks and 50 Fragments of Horror.
    • Weekly PvP quests give 500 Abyssal Crusaders marks and 100 Fragments of Horror.
    • Weekly open world PvE quest gives give 500 Abyssal Crusaders marks and 100 Fragments of Horror in addition to 2,500 Void Stones.
    • Daily raid rifts give 500 Void Stones.
    • Weekly raid rift quest gives give 500 Abyssal Crusaders marks and 100 Fragments of Horror.
    • Weekly(assuming) Instant Adventure quest gives give 500 Abyssal Crusaders marks and 100 Fragments of Horror.

    I've heard about currency caps, what do they mean?

    Currently the currencies I've listed above are all capped on how many of them you can gain during a week. This does not mean they are capped at that amount, just that amount per week. For example, if you cap out void stones at 35,000 per week and the second week you cap it again you have 70,000 total.

    Currently the caps are the following:
    • 35,000 Void Stones per week.
    • 15,000 Abyssal Crusader's marks per week.
    • 4,500 Fragments of Horror per week.

    It's also important to note that the game does indeed alert players to how much of the cap they have remaining, so there's no guessing on when you get close to the cap for the week.

    How much does the gear cost?

    This has been the main fluctuation over the past few days. Gear is broken up into three categories: Open world gear, "Expert" level gear and "Raid" level gear.

    Open world gear costs:
    • Gloves/Belt/Boots 21,000 Void Stones
    • Shoulders/Helm 28,000 Void Stones
    • Chest/Legs 52,500 Void Stones

    Expert level gear costs:
    • Gloves/Belt/Boots 9,000 Abyssal Crusader's marks
    • Shoulders/Helm 12,000 Abyssal Crusader's marks
    • Chest/Legs 22,500 Abyssal Crusader's marks

    Raid level gear costs:
    • Gloves/Belt/Boots 8,550 Fragments of Horror
    • Shoulders/Helm 13,000 Fragments of Horror
    • Chest/Legs 16,500 Fragments of Horror

    What does this mean in terms of playtime?

    This is where my own main issue lies within gearing and 3.0. Gear Unification (or the removal of vengeance and valor) has a lot of benefits. Players who primarily play one part of the game can easily go back and forth across that imaginary fence. If I want to hop into PvP I do not need to grind out different gear. If a PvP player wants to hop into dungeons or raids, they do not have to grind out additional gear.

    But the problem, and what I feel is being overlooked, is the initial gearing process itself. Lets take a look at some potential scenarios with how the system is currently set up:
    • If a person only wants to run dungeons, and earn gear for those dungeons like they did in 1.x or 2.x, they would receive 2,800 Abyssal Crusader's marks per week from seven dungeons (not counting ten for patrons as not everyone is a patron). This is only 18.6% of the cap per week.
    • If the same person does all of that, plus their raid rift quest, instant adventure quest, and open world (complete zone events quest) they're up to 4,300. This is only 28.6% of the cap.
    • If a person only wants to run warfronts, they would earn the exact same 2,800 Abyssal Crusader's marks per week as above. Since the PvP weekly quests conveniently line up with their warfronts, they can extend that to 3,800 without doing any PvE content. This is only 25,3% of the cap.
    • If a person who runs the warfronts and PvP weeklies like above, plus does the open world quests (the three used in the second example) they're sitting at 5,300 or only 35.3% of the weekly cap.

    As you can see above, this presents a very blunt picture for currency acquisition in Nightmare Tide.

    But Will, why do we worry about the cap? Surely everyone shouldn't hit the cap each week, right?

    This is a true and false statement.

    You do not have to hit the cap each week, just like you never had to hit the weekly cap of dungeon or PvP marks in Storm Legion. The major difference here is the simple fact that the gear price is based on total available marks per week. Things are more expensive because we can earn more per week. To be as effective as you were at earning currency for your gear in Storm Legion, you will have to play undoubtedly more in Nightmare Tide to earn the gear.

    Lets look and see real numbers on how long this will take. The total cost for an expert level gear set would be 96,000 Abyssal Crusader's marks.

    Using the same examples as the last section, in respective order:
    • Dungeon-only: At 2,800 per week, it would require 35 weekly resets to obtain a full set of Expert level gear.
    • Dungeon and open world: At 4,300 per week, it would require 23 weekly resets to obtain a full set of Expert level gear.
    • PvP-only (warfronts and two weekly quests): At 3,800 per week, it would require 26 weekly resets to obtain a full set of Expert level gear.
    • PvP daily/weekly, and open world weeklies: At 5,300 per week, it would require 19 weekly resets to obtain a full set of Expert level gear.

    I'm the type of player that wants to maximize everything. How am I affected?

    Now here is the question I've been leading up to. Maximum effectiveness. We can see a clear discrepancy in the amount of time it takes for various players to obtain store gear above, but what happens when we have a player that actually wants to push that cap?

    2,800 from 7x Dungeons.
    2,800 from 7x Warfronts
    1,000 from PvP Weekly Quests
    1,500 from Open World Weekly Quests
    8,100 Abyssal Crusader's marks per week.

    At 8,100 Abyssal Crusader's marks per week, this would be 54% of their weekly cap. At this rate, it would take the player 12 weekly resets to obtain a full set of expert level gear. This of course involves double the work than any of the examples I gave above.

    Now, don't get me wrong. I'm not ignorant to the fact that there are players who enjoy mingling in between PvP and PvE. I enjoy random warfronts just as much as the next raider, and I'm sure there are some fairly hardcore PvP players who like to dabble in raids or dungeons.

    But the fact of the matter is, this system does not give us choices, it merely redefines what we need to do per week. What does that mean? It means that players, no matter how they played before 3.0, unless they were doing absolutely everything per week will now be less effective at playing the game and gearing their characters. This is a problem, and one that if left un-addressed will cause people to leave the game.

    You left out raid gear. Why?

    Because as much as the expert level gear might be a headache to think about, Raid Gear is even worse for certain types of players. We all know the currency gains from killing raid bosses is rather unique when compared to all of the quests and aspects of the game, and this number is not finalized yet. So it's impossible to total the amount up for players who will raid.

    Firstly, we found out through Daglar on one of the official live streams that Epic-Level (purple) Raid Gear can be used in war fronts.

    Since we can tally up people who only PvP, what will they earn?
    • PvP-only (warfronts and two weekly quests): 550 Fragments of Horror per week.
    • PvP-only plus the open world weekly quests: 850 Fragments of Horror per week.

    Remember, this level of raid gear can be used inside of PvP. Just how long would it take those players above to earn a single, cheapest piece of gear? 10 weeks. For the full set? 100 weeks, yes a hundred.

    Again, I will not tally up how much raid bosses drop per week as it is not finalized, but raid bosses do drop gear.

    What about open world gear?

    I want to start talking about this with one note. Players who want to gear up this way are at an immediate disadvantage (or advantage if you look at it the right way I suppose) in the fact they do not have structured quests to follow. They simply have a cap to hit. How many zone events, rifts, invasions, etc. do you have to kill/complete to get to the cap of 35,000 Void Stones? Who knows.

    Assuming you can hit that cap every week though, you can get your world gear set (224,000 Void Stones later) after 16 weekly resets. This may seem fast, but again there's only a few open world quests that give the currency.

    More importantly though, we cannot forget the fact that essences and synergy crystals use Void Stones (among other things such as the earring slot unlocks if you do not purchase a collector's edition). You're going to have to tack extra weeks onto that 16 because you need this gear (and every other type of player needs essences/crystals/etc. as well).

    Conclusion

    Nightmare Tide gearing is a vast departure from what we had in 1.x or 2.x. I've done a lot of thinking on this in the past few days and while I welcome change in most forms, this completely re-writes the book on how gearing will take place in the game. Is this a far enough departure away from the tried and true recipe to turn people off the game? I have no doubt in my mind people will leave over this.

    I do not want to come across as emotion filled or angry, but the current caps and currency amounts from activities do one thing. Force players to play every aspect of the game, regardless of if they enjoy it or not. I say force, because choice here is an illusion. A true choice would be an either or statement, such as I can do three warfronts and four dungeons and get rewards.

    I have suggestions for remedying the problems I see here, and I suspect at least some other players will have as well:
    • Reduce the cost of the gear so our choice of what portion of the game we want to play fills up the weekly cap. Example: Cap Abyssal Crusader's marks around 5,000 this would give 56% of the cap from doing 7 dungeons or 7 warfronts, or any mixture of the two like we see from doing the absolutely-everything example above in my post.
    • An alternative to reducing the gear cost is to increase the amount of Abyssal Crusader's marks gained from doing various dailies and quests. Example: Give 1,150 or so Abyssal Crusader's marks per dungeon or warfront, granting 8,050 per week from those alone or 53.6% of the weekly cap.
    • Put open world gear behind a new currency and remove the weekly cap on Void Stones. Add new daily or weekly quests for them to do to earn said currency. This would bring it in-line with how the other gear in the game is obtained. I understand the desire to not add in more currencies, but there already have been four PvP currencies killed off with 3.0, is one new currency added going to break the system?
    • As said above, remove the cap on Void Stones (with the open world gear safely out of the way). The cap hurts any type of player that needs multiple sigils (12 or 18 essences) and of course their synergy crystals. For just one sigil filled out with "best in slot" from the store, not even including prices for the upgrades to higher tiers you would need 236,250 Void Stones to complete one single sigil. That's still 15 weeks per sigil, and some people need three (tank/heals/DPS). Synergy crystals add on another 90,000 total (for all six) on top of that cost, for another three weeks. The Void Stone cap simply cannot stand.
    • Raid Gear should not be allowed inside of PvP, at least not at launch. Players who have access to raid content (meaning they have the 9 other or 19 other required individuals) will get at least a few pieces of gear before any pure PvP player even obtains one item.
    • The raid currency cap needs to be low enough that a person doing the 10-man and the 20-man in one week hits the cap. Even with a cap like this in place, players who raid are forced into doing absolutely every part of the game that gives the raid currency until they down more bosses in the instances. I would argue again, that raid currency should be removed from everything but raid boss kills (of course, as I said above restrict it from being used in PvP).

    There are amazing merits to Gear Unification, but it's going to be at least partially ignored because of the frustration and aggravation of how gear is obtained. I have no problem with playing the game to earn my gear, I do have a problem when what I used to do to obtain my gear is now only one third as effective as it was in 1.x or 2.x

    Please, Trion. Remember that Gear Unification does not mean Play-style Unification. Not everyone plays every part of the game. I think players should be partially rewarded if they want to do different parts of the game (see my above suggestion about making the cap low enough so it is hit through doing a player chosen amount of different activities) but we should have a choice. As it stands now, we are forced to do everything and anything to be as effective as we possibly can.
    Yeah, that's nice. But time is money. How much does it cost to buy full BiS? I can't be bothered to play the game, I have stuff to do. I need to be the best there ever was. I'm a Pokemon master.

  3. #168
    Ascendant Meteorblade's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daglar View Post
    This is the direction we are heading in
    It's a direction I do not like. Nor do I like your bullish "Don't like it? Go play something else" attitude displayed to the overwhelming dissatisfaction displayed in threads like this.

    I voted with my wallet. I cancelled my patron. I'm considering whether to even bother with 3.0. Well done on turning the expansion from something I was looking forward to into something I'm already not enjoying before it's even been released.

  4. #169
    Shield of Telara Necalli's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Techie Will View Post
    If you think that Trion doesn't listen to something like this, you're sadly mistaken.
    Trion use to listen, I know they use to. Anyhow however, I don't see that as the case. Maybe on minor issues like pricing they'll listen, but anymore they just ignore the majority of their player base. The perfect example is the multi-core support issue. This has been a problem for years now, there is no reason on earth that this has not been addressed. No one disagrees about it needing to be addressed and yet here we are with a problem that is how many years old? Instead of investing the time and money into this issue like they should they've just been putting mounts, lockboxes, and small questlines in the game. Are they just hoping that everyone's computer will just evolve over time to the point where they can just wreck Rift with just a single core?

    The other thing that tips me off as to Trion listening is Daglar and his attitude during the most recent livestreams. Even when he's answering questions or explaining something his attitude has been dismissive, as if he doesn't care what people have to say. If that is the head guy of Rift and his attitude, what does the rest of the company think and act like? I get that the forums have become incredibly toxic since the f2p transition, but still that kind of attitude and behavior doesn't bode well for the game.

  5.   Click here to go to the next Rift Team post in this thread.   #170
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    Quote Originally Posted by Necalli View Post
    Trion use to listen, I know they use to. Anyhow however, I don't see that as the case. Maybe on minor issues like pricing they'll listen, but anymore they just ignore the majority of their player base. The perfect example is the multi-core support issue. This has been a problem for years now, there is no reason on earth that this has not been addressed.
    We've commented on multi core support many, many, many times. We are not ignoring the request. Each time it pops back up, we explain that there is no magical button we can press to make the game multi core.

    We are investing our time and resources into making the performance of the game better. Sometimes that involves writing more code that allows some multi core support -- culling in 3.0 has been updated to offload some of its process to other cores as I understand it.

    ~Daglar

  6. #171
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    Quote Originally Posted by Meteorblade View Post
    It's a direction I do not like. Nor do I like your bullish "Don't like it? Go play something else" attitude displayed to the overwhelming dissatisfaction displayed in threads like this.

    I voted with my wallet. I cancelled my patron. I'm considering whether to even bother with 3.0. Well done on turning the expansion from something I was looking forward to into something I'm already not enjoying before it's even been released.
    Couldn't have said it better myself.

    Ive been a subscriber then a patron since release. I have 447 days /played on my main. I have five level 60's. Ive ran a guild for more then 3,5 years non stop. I have invested (sadly) so much time in here im not gonna say "ah well screw this ill play wow". I want this game to be great.

    The direction your taking us in Daglar is not good at all.

  7. #172
    Shield of Telara Necalli's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daglar View Post
    We've commented on multi core support many, many, many times. We are not ignoring the request. Each time it pops back up, we explain that there is no magical button we can press to make the game multi core.

    We are investing our time and resources into making the performance of the game better. Sometimes that involves writing more code that allows some multi core support -- culling in 3.0 has been updated to offload some of its process to other cores as I understand it.

    ~Daglar
    I'm glad to hear there are plans in the works, I also understand that there is a development time for this kind of feature. What I'm talking about is having something being pushed to the live client, the issue isn't "addressed" (probably a poor choice of words on my end) until something is pushed to the live client.

  8. #173
    RIFT Guide Writer Soulshield's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ianto Jones View Post
    This means that if people -- and specifically, PvPers -- continue to play the way that they did for SL, the actual rate of gain is far less, but the prices are still set assuming the maximum.
    Do a lot of CQ or raid to get faster gear seems like this does not change with NT
    If you don`t like pve you can play CQ to get to your currency caps.

    I would like to see a time comparison between how fast you could get pvp gear on release of SL and how fast you can get it in NT by pure pvping....I would say the overall time difference is small due to earning marks for your top gear on day 1 of lv 65.
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  9.   Click here to go to the next Rift Team post in this thread.   #174
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ianto Jones View Post
    Except now the same currency is obtained from PvP and PvE, meaning that in order to hit that maximum gain rate you have to participate in both. This means that if people -- and specifically, PvPers -- continue to play the way that they did for SL, the actual rate of gain is far less, but the prices are still set assuming the maximum.

    Trion has devised a gearing system to punish people for enjoying the game they want to enjoy it. It's asinine and counter to all of their "you play your way" marketing. Coercion is not an effective means of player retention, and this do our content OR ELSE system certainly is coercive.
    The numbers have actually been adjusted today, such that patron's should not need to do every activity to hit the cap.

    Those changes - as well as more essence pricing changes, should be on PTS tomorrow.

    ~Daglar

  10. #175
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daglar View Post
    The numbers have actually been adjusted today, such that patron's should not need to do every activity to hit the cap.

    Those changes - as well as more essence pricing changes, should be on PTS tomorrow.

    ~Daglar
    Daglar what changed so that you felt the need to implement a currency cap in the first place ?
    Daglar what Need to happen for you to even consider removing the cap ?

  11. #176
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    Quote Originally Posted by Opira View Post
    Daglar what changed so that you felt the need to implement a currency cap in the first place ?
    Daglar what Need to happen for you to even consider removing the cap ?
    1) NT is Rift's first expansion designed during F2P mode. As happens with F2P games, the content is designed to drive players to the store.
    2) Therefore, nothing can happen which will make them reconsider at this point.
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  12. #177
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shattered View Post
    1) NT is Rift's first expansion designed during F2P mode. As happens with F2P games, the content is designed to drive players to the store.
    2) Therefore, nothing can happen which will make them reconsider at this point.
    Actually i think it will scare a lot of people away from the game.
    I know a few that already cancelled their sub...

    ... being to greedy might end up with having no costumers = no money

  13. #178
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daglar View Post
    The numbers have actually been adjusted today, such that patron's should not need to do every activity to hit the cap.

    Those changes - as well as more essence pricing changes, should be on PTS tomorrow.

    ~Daglar
    Thank you, Daglar. This is a very large step in a positive direction.

    Now ... about that cap ... I'm not sure I still see a point in it. If you are offering non-BiS gear in the store for credits (which I'm personally wholeheartedly against), why cap at all? And you cannot state it is due to trying to keep people playing the expansion you all worked so hard on. Because really, if you're offering gear that will get you into experts from the start, then you're going to have a few that will have skipped everything and thus negate the point.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Halowed View Post
    Thank you, Daglar. This is a very large step in a positive direction.

    Now ... about that cap ... I'm not sure I still see a point in it. If you are offering non-BiS gear in the store for credits (which I'm personally wholeheartedly against), why cap at all? And you cannot state it is due to trying to keep people playing the expansion you all worked so hard on. Because really, if you're offering gear that will get you into experts from the start, then you're going to have a few that will have skipped everything and thus negate the point.

  15. #180
    Champion of Telara Silverangel69's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Halowed View Post
    Now ... about that cap ... I'm not sure I still see a point in it...why cap at all?
    The OP says: "...the current caps and currency amounts from activities do one thing. Force players to play every aspect of the game, regardless of if they enjoy it or not." It seems like a cap should be doing the opposite, and that would be the point of a cap: to allow players parity with different playstyles and not be forced to do everything. So you could cap by only doing one or two activities. The OP's math is not really worth analyzing imo since the numbers are not finalized.

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