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Thread: You call these masteries? Seriously?

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enept View Post
    A competent dev team can make a game where classes are unique but that requires innovation and it's simpler to fill a mold instead of creating a new one.
    I will bring as example the developers of the game-thou-shalt-not-name. You cannot use the argument that they are not competent because they are essentially amongst the top of the batch in the MMO area, and also have the longest beta development timetables as far as I know. Yet the classes there have been homogenised and a lot of unique class skills have been removed in the name of fairness, equality and "I wanna raid/pvp as my spec".

    No, I stopped playing 2 years ago. I am not white-knighting them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ulthran View Post
    Why are both lol and dota filled to the top with unique characters(ok some are reminiscent of others, but there are unique concepts such as Orianna or disruptor)? Aren't they the very definition of a competitive game? One could say that DoTA itself is the competitive game( ;) )!
    Because of the small number of abilities/numbers that have to be tuned. You have 5 (4 + passive) abilities that have to be tested, not 30+ that each soul in Rift uses. You also do not have that much scaling to test since, with only 6 items, numbers do not reach that much higher from their base values. And even then, you still see lots of complaints about FotM champions, FotM items and such, not just from your typical 15yo that doesn't read how to play but plays 10 hours per day, but from actual players of the competitive scene of their respective games. And you also see complaints about even more UP champions that noone picks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ulthran View Post
    Never, but never excuse someone's incompetence/lazyness. Otherwise, stuff like WAR or AoC happens(just to remind you of games that were great on paper, but sucked irl).
    Most games work on paper. It's practice that screws everything.

    [
    Quote Originally Posted by Ulthran View Post
    Besides, more games should take up ddo or EQ or Vanguard or GW 1 as a role model for their balance. Balance only means that every class is equally playable. So, if we have three pet classes where one has access only to, idk, MDPS, second has access to both forms of DPS and the third has the access to everything, the balance would say the following: "DPS only pet has the highest dmg and the jack of all trades pays the upkeep tax by having the mean effectiveness of their pets reduced by at least 25%, but not more than 40%" . Nowhere in that sentence does it say that everyone needs to have access to everything-on the contrary! If you don't have a debilitate, you offset it by having larger numbers. Simple concept, no?

    Apparently, it is not ;)
    Actually no. Balance means that performance between different options on the same content/challenge/whatever bring equal chance of success. In your argument about pet and type of damage, theorycrafting/actual practice would simply determine which option brings the highest numerical performance for the majority of relevant content. Whichever option prevailed, would become what we call "cookie-cutter" option. Other options, depending on how lower they performed, would become either niche or obsolete.

    The jack-of-all-trade tax that you mentioned existed/exists in MMOs. And it was/is proven to be suboptimal in vast majority of cases, which led to those options being discarded by the players, with the few ones that wanted to enjoy group content playing them either not invited or ridiculed. (edit: Talking about progression here, not questing/farming/casualing)

    Of course I am not saying that homogenisation is the way to go. I am saying that if you do not homogenise, then any content that requires minmaxing for success will see players pidgeonheld in the few "viable" options.
    Last edited by Dark Mits; 10-05-2014 at 12:33 AM.

  2. #32
    Ascendant simpa1988's Avatar
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    havent read the all the posts here.
    Just want to say that i tested today my clerics masteries and i like them

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Mits View Post
    I will bring as example the developers of the game-thou-shalt-not-name. You cannot use the argument that they are not competent because they are essentially amongst the top of the batch in the MMO area, and also have the longest beta development timetables as far as I know. Yet the classes there have been homogenised and a lot of unique class skills have been removed in the name of fairness, equality and "I wanna raid/pvp as my spec".

    No, I stopped playing 2 years ago. I am not white-knighting them.

    Because of the small number of abilities/numbers that have to be tuned. You have 5 (4 + passive) abilities that have to be tested, not 30+ that each soul in Rift uses. You also do not have that much scaling to test since, with only 6 items, numbers do not reach that much higher from their base values. And even then, you still see lots of complaints about FotM champions, FotM items and such, not just from your typical 15yo that doesn't read how to play but plays 10 hours per day, but from actual players of the competitive scene of their respective games. And you also see complaints about even more UP champions that noone picks.

    Most games work on paper. It's practice that screws everything.

    [Actually no. Balance means that performance between different options on the same content/challenge/whatever bring equal chance of success. In your argument about pet and type of damage, theorycrafting/actual practice would simply determine which option brings the highest numerical performance for the majority of relevant content. Whichever option prevailed, would become what we call "cookie-cutter" option. Other options, depending on how lower they performed, would become either niche or obsolete.

    The jack-of-all-trade tax that you mentioned existed/exists in MMOs. And it was/is proven to be suboptimal in vast majority of cases, which led to those options being discarded by the players, with the few ones that wanted to enjoy group content playing them either not invited or ridiculed. (edit: Talking about progression here, not questing/farming/casualing)

    Of course I am not saying that homogenisation is the way to go. I am saying that if you do not homogenise, then any content that requires minmaxing for success will see players pidgeonheld in the few "viable" options.
    And if you do, you're in the same spot as if you didn't homogenise. Heh ;)

    If we are talking about progression high end gameplay, then there should be more variety to bosses. Have some that require High dmg and mobility(this way you wouldn't even need more than 1-2 group healers), also have some traditional tank n spanks(Purifier + Just = GG ) while having some where there are no bosses but there is some kind of Debuff that nullifies non-self Healing and have up to elite mobs(this way strong self heal classes would be needed while healers would be voided) etc. See how many creative options I devised and that was only ~10 minutes.

    If one wants something done badly enough, it'll be done. See how swtor recovered-like a true phoenix!

  4. #34
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    Suggest it to them. I like having fights that are not simple "burn all your abilities on cd".

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Mits View Post
    Suggest it to them. I like having fights that are not simple "burn all your abilities on cd".
    Me too. Too simple is too simple, but should still be present for those who like that kind of thing. As should hardcore as *** content be present as well.

    Solo, PvP, arranged PvP, arranged PvE, High end progression PvE, crafting. These are all things that are basic building blocks of MMOs. It didn't use to be like that, see. You had a building block(a keystone if you will) and various support materials. Some MMOs didn't even have progression PvE or PvP at all-and they were more than fine. They were and still are and I'm pretty certain that they're going to remain, in one word, LEGENDS.

    But today's playerbase and overall marketplace condition is different and this "please everyone" method is just a response to those conditions. Nothing more, nothing less.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ulthran View Post

    But today's playerbase and overall marketplace condition is different and this "please everyone" method is just a response to those conditions. Nothing more, nothing less.
    The "new age gamers" I call them. These gamers destroyed games.

  7. #37
    Ascendant MoonfireSpam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Mits View Post
    You can blame your competitive scene for that Homogenization. Check out what happens to other MMOs where there is no such thing as competitive raiding or pvp, like Dungeons and Dragons Online. Each class is amazingly unique, but the imbalances are atrocious.
    I haven't thought about who to blame; nor do I really care to point fingers.

    All I know is that the more things they homogenized in the name of "fairness," the less I wanted to play the game.
    So long, and thanks for all the fish~

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