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  Click here to go to the first Rift Team post in this thread.   Thread: Mentoring, instant adventures, and "the point of no return."

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    Plane Walker Omedon's Avatar
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    Default Mentoring, instant adventures, and "the point of no return."

    I have twelve 60's, I'm a compulsive leveler, and, like many I'm sure, I've learned a lot about what methods worked better than others for efficiently gaining XP in the path to twelve 60's. I noticed when efficiency just died, and when it flourished.

    RIFT is probably, right now, one of the best games out there for facilitating two or more people playing together who have varied leveling agendas and priorities, but there was one negative constant in the Storm Legion phase of its existence that I've been hoping will be addressed with Nightmare Tide, and I've been hoping to read word of it somewhere, and now, with just over a week to go, I was hoping someone in this community could point me to information on the subject, because I haven't seen it directly addressed yet.

    The one negative constant I'm talking about is, once you've crossed over to level 50, you have no business ever looking at Mathosia again, specifically in randomly queued instant adventures shared with friends, who perhaps don't prioritize rapid, devoted leveling.

    I love instant adventures, they are the one feature that I wish more games would straight-up steal from RIFT, and yet time and time again, games take themselves too seriously to allow for such an accessible, laid back, inclusive path of shared leveling. At the same time, I am glad RIFT has them, and it's part of the reason RIFT will probably always be my go-to game. All of that being said, I kept as many characters as I could from hitting 50 for as long as possible (meaning "until they were next in line to go to 60") in order to have "IAs with low level friends" be a viable and "logistically worthwhile" option while leveling, because of the massive chasm of difference in the XP paradigm between Mathosian content and Storm Legion content.

    My best friend also has, I believe, eleven if not twelve characters. She loves, LOOOOVES dimensions and spends most of her time RPing or building in them, even though she is a more than capable "gamer" in the kill-things sense. Leveling is not a priority to her, as she doesn't like or have time to pursue levels alone as much as I do. She mostly views leveling as a social activity to be shared with me and our guild, and spends her "alone gaming" time building dimensions, or in other games. As a result, she got two of her roster to 60, just two, throughout all of Storm Legion. None of us minded or cared, until it came time for us to play together as characters on opposite sides of the "level 50 divide."

    Mentoring is a critical feature to our mutual enjoyment of the game, as you can imagine, but it was always a huge pet peeve to me, as much as I enjoyed spending time with her, that once my entire roster crossed the level 50 barrier, our favourite leveling pastime (IAs) was no longer logistically rewarding for me in a significant way, because I'd always be mentored into Mathosian content (and, to be clear, I don't mind the Mathosian areas at all), and so I adopted a "don't care about XP, enjoy the company" policy... to work around this flaw in the game.

    But it was still a flaw in the game. A big flaw, as I saw it.

    With upward mentoring, half of this hole is potentially plugged. I have read that mentoring up will give the upward-mentored character proportionately relevant XP rewards, meaning the level 10 in the level 60+ zone will receive level 10 XP for everything they do, making leveling with friends rewarding while done in NT areas. That's smart, I'm glad to hear that. The meat of this longwinded post is to ask whether or not that will work both ways, or are all leveling characters with endgame level friends expected to live in nightmare tide zones for their entire leveling career if they'd like to solely level with friends? Has the idea of doing IAs in Mathosia post 50 (beyond the initial dailies) being a waste of time been slain with Nightmare Tide? If so, I think that's silly, that means in a few months, IA-levelers with friends will exist mostly in Tarken glacier and such, at level 10. I really hope that's not the case. That's killing the potential of the rest of Telara's relevance.

    I'll probably have twelve 65s long before my friend has a single 65, heck most of her characters are still of Mathosian levels, and I'd like to play with them in the entire world of Telara throughout that journey, not just in Nightmare Tide zones. There is a great opportunity here, with dual-directional mentoring, for randomly queued instant adventures to reward standardized XP to every character in every zone from levels 10 to 65, for the entire world of Telara to suddenly be equally relevant, with individually calculated loot and XP in Instant Adventures...

    Or will everyone playing IAs be living in Nightmare Tide for their entire career as of level 10? If so, I think that's kinda lame. Has anything been said in this vein by the devs? I'd have no idea how to search something so specific.

    I really hope I can abolish my "don't worry about XP, enjoy the company" policy. I don't see any good reason why I can't have my cake and eat it too within instant adventure leveling gameplay.

    Can anyone shed light on this? Has anything official been stated in this vein?

    Thank you in advance for any and all helpful replies.
    Last edited by Omedon; 09-29-2014 at 12:45 AM.
    "Hope is the denial of reality. It is the carrot dangled before the draft horse to keep him plodding along in a vain attempt to reach it." -Raistlin Majere

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    Shiny Ball of Doomy Doom Salvatrix's Avatar
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    I am hoping to launch into a large revamp of IA in the near future that would address this as well as many other things in IA, but it will not be at the launch of Nightmare Tide. It is not even officially committed to yet, but it is a passion project of mine that has a lot of interest internally as well as from players, so I hope to get the green light to jump into it soon. Very soon.
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    RIFT Fan Site Operator Xillean's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tacitus View Post
    I am hoping to launch into a large revamp of IA in the near future that would address this as well as many other things in IA, but it will not be at the launch of Nightmare Tide. It is not even officially committed to yet, but it is a passion project of mine that has a lot of interest internally as well as from players, so I hope to get the green light to jump into it soon. Very soon.
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    Last edited by Xillean; 09-29-2014 at 09:15 AM. Reason: Forgot to add doomy!
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    Plane Walker Omedon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tacitus View Post
    I am hoping to launch into a large revamp of IA in the near future that would address this as well as many other things in IA, but it will not be at the launch of Nightmare Tide. It is not even officially committed to yet, but it is a passion project of mine that has a lot of interest internally as well as from players, so I hope to get the green light to jump into it soon. Very soon.

    I would really appreciate that revamp, as IAs are hands down my inner circle's favourite way to enjoy RIFT together, we've spent many evenings cycling alts through their dailiy random IAs and RPing together while completing IA objectives!



    Also, while I'm here, I just noticed, hours after the edit window, that, in my original post:

    "Has the idea of doing IAs in Mathosia post 50 (beyond the initial dailies) being a waste of time been slain with Nightmare Tide? If so, I think that's silly,"

    Should have been: "If not, I think that's silly,"



    I think IAs are the secret to keeping every area potentially relevant for every phase of the game's lifespan to characters of every level, and I'd love to see that reflected.
    Last edited by Omedon; 09-29-2014 at 10:01 AM.
    "Hope is the denial of reality. It is the carrot dangled before the draft horse to keep him plodding along in a vain attempt to reach it." -Raistlin Majere

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    Telaran Baraamx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tacitus View Post
    I am hoping to launch into a large revamp of IA in the near future that would address this as well as many other things in IA, but it will not be at the launch of Nightmare Tide. It is not even officially committed to yet, but it is a passion project of mine that has a lot of interest internally as well as from players, so I hope to get the green light to jump into it soon. Very soon.
    ty for answering the doubts, i hope u could get some time in the near future to work this out, one more reason that im glad i switched to rift is this, tyvm for ur passion and time

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    Ascendant the_real_seebs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tacitus View Post
    I am hoping to launch into a large revamp of IA in the near future that would address this as well as many other things in IA, but it will not be at the launch of Nightmare Tide. It is not even officially committed to yet, but it is a passion project of mine that has a lot of interest internally as well as from players, so I hope to get the green light to jump into it soon. Very soon.
    Tacitus for Best Dev!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tacitus View Post
    I am hoping to launch into a large revamp of IA in the near future that would address this as well as many other things in IA, but it will not be at the launch of Nightmare Tide. It is not even officially committed to yet, but it is a passion project of mine that has a lot of interest internally as well as from players, so I hope to get the green light to jump into it soon. Very soon.
    Ever since I heard about this from the Community Day podcasty thing that Seatin/will/kiwi/noobzilla did I've been super excited. Alot of people ask about Looking For Raid in Rift and I see this as potentially being able to fill some of that possibility. Maybe not at the outset but down the line.

    Daglar please green light this project cause Tacitus is awesome! (he totally didn't bribe me to say that, I promise!)

    For those wondering what I'm on about, they talked about a passion project from a dev allowing for IA's in instanced areas like Hammerknell, I'm assuming its Tacitus they were talking about.
    Last edited by Khelendross; 09-29-2014 at 12:02 PM.
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    Plane Walker Omedon's Avatar
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    Instant adventures, in a world with dual-directional mentoring, have the opportunity to be a "level agnostic" (as of level 10), reward-relevant guided tour of the entire world of RIFT. I'd heard about the raid instance approach, and honestly, this is a great idea! Hammerknell and such are areas that are not relevant in a progression raiding sense anymore, so why not feed them to the IA machine?

    No other MMORPG I'm aware of right now is doing anything close to the fun, accessible, convenient, and rewarding venture of IAs. No one. (incidentally, if I'm wrong, do please correct me) The closest thing to it are in ARPGs, and these don't often bridge level gaps. Instant adventures are the first feature I plug to people contemplating playing RIFT. If IAs can get any better, that will never ever be wasted dev effort in my book.
    "Hope is the denial of reality. It is the carrot dangled before the draft horse to keep him plodding along in a vain attempt to reach it." -Raistlin Majere

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    Plane Touched
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    Quote Originally Posted by Omedon View Post
    I think IAs are the secret to keeping every area potentially relevant for every phase of the game's lifespan to characters of every level, and I'd love to see that reflected.

    I agree completely, but it needs a fix to mentoring.

    My problem with mentoring is that it breaks the risk/reward system in the game.

    With normal progression, both the difficulty and reward increase with your level, which conversely means that as you over-level areas both the risk and reward are reduced.

    With mentoring, you are temporarily reducing your level. This means the risk/difficulty increases. But the reward doesn't. If I mentor from level 60 down to level 15 to participate in a zone event in Freemarch, the difficulty is fairly equivalent to a level 60 zone event in The Dendrome. But my reward for the Freemarch event is what, five Planarite? Fifteen silver?

    The rewards should scale inversely to the mentoring level reduction.

    If you do this, you could have mentoring anywhere. Queue for Iron Tombs, mentor down to level 15, and get meaningful marks. Queue for Hammerknell, mentor down to level 50, get meaningful gear.

    It's an instant solution to make any zone viable: allow mentoring down to give useful rewards.

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    Plane Walker Omedon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DisneyShadow View Post
    I agree completely, but it needs a fix to mentoring.

    My problem with mentoring is that it breaks the risk/reward system in the game.

    With normal progression, both the difficulty and reward increase with your level, which conversely means that as you over-level areas both the risk and reward are reduced.

    With mentoring, you are temporarily reducing your level. This means the risk/difficulty increases. But the reward doesn't. If I mentor from level 60 down to level 15 to participate in a zone event in Freemarch, the difficulty is fairly equivalent to a level 60 zone event in The Dendrome. But my reward for the Freemarch event is what, five Planarite? Fifteen silver?

    The rewards should scale inversely to the mentoring level reduction.

    If you do this, you could have mentoring anywhere. Queue for Iron Tombs, mentor down to level 15, and get meaningful marks. Queue for Hammerknell, mentor down to level 50, get meaningful gear.

    It's an instant solution to make any zone viable: allow mentoring down to give useful rewards.
    There are baby steps in place for this with downward mentoring from SL to Mathosia IAs often rewarding crystallized insight (as I learned as part of my "forget the XP, enjoy the company" ventures) , but I completely agree that it should go further than that, into relevant XP rewards and relevant currency loot! I hope that's part of the revamp they're discussing here!
    "Hope is the denial of reality. It is the carrot dangled before the draft horse to keep him plodding along in a vain attempt to reach it." -Raistlin Majere

    Tales from the Void: http://omedon.tumblr.com

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    Rift Chaser VolitheBear's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DisneyShadow View Post
    I agree completely, but it needs a fix to mentoring.

    My problem with mentoring is that it breaks the risk/reward system in the game.

    With normal progression, both the difficulty and reward increase with your level, which conversely means that as you over-level areas both the risk and reward are reduced.

    With mentoring, you are temporarily reducing your level. This means the risk/difficulty increases. But the reward doesn't. If I mentor from level 60 down to level 15 to participate in a zone event in Freemarch, the difficulty is fairly equivalent to a level 60 zone event in The Dendrome. But my reward for the Freemarch event is what, five Planarite? Fifteen silver?

    The rewards should scale inversely to the mentoring level reduction.

    If you do this, you could have mentoring anywhere. Queue for Iron Tombs, mentor down to level 15, and get meaningful marks. Queue for Hammerknell, mentor down to level 50, get meaningful gear.

    It's an instant solution to make any zone viable: allow mentoring down to give useful rewards.
    You are wrong, for people who have "mastered" their class mentoring down is not risky at all since you have all skills/macros at your disposal even with damage reduction you can outplay and know how to react to a specific encounter since 99% of them are the same.

    Mentoring UP on the other hand will not benefit new players at all since they have no freaking clue how to play their class and will most likely cause more frustration than joy for everyone included, assuming you will mentor up to play with your friends.

    Therefore the rewards need to stay crap for people mentoring down and up because of the disproportional difficulty level of downwards/upwards scaling events.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tacitus View Post
    I am hoping to launch into a large revamp of IA in the near future that would address this as well as many other things in IA, but it will not be at the launch of Nightmare Tide. It is not even officially committed to yet, but it is a passion project of mine that has a lot of interest internally as well as from players, so I hope to get the green light to jump into it soon. Very soon.
    Tacitus, hopefully you still have what I discussed with you earlier about IA's on the list as well.

    A) Mentoring should be automatically done for you at the MAX level of the zone mobs. All you should have to do is select which zone you want to do an IA in and the game should do the rest.

    B) There is a "feature" that needs to be removed in joining an IA. If I mentor down to say level 26 to join Gloamwood's IA, as soon as I join the IA, my mentor level is now level 25. I shouldn't have to delevel another level (reduced health/reduced DPS).

    C) Boss mobs in IA are super overpowered especially in Stillmoor/Shimmersand. 4 of us in group and we go up against a 1.3Million health mob at level 50 who by the way is level 52, so he's 2 level higher as well.

    Trying to finish off the last of the Malosian IA's so I can start working on SL IA's and I'm going to be in the same boat it looks like.

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    Plane Walker Omedon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by VolitheBear View Post
    they have no freaking clue how to play their class and will most likely cause more frustration than joy for everyone included,
    I bet you're real fun at parties.
    "Hope is the denial of reality. It is the carrot dangled before the draft horse to keep him plodding along in a vain attempt to reach it." -Raistlin Majere

    Tales from the Void: http://omedon.tumblr.com

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    Rift Chaser VolitheBear's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Omedon View Post
    I bet you're real fun at parties.
    Re-read my post, then read your own signature, then read your attempt at a personal jab towards me in lack of any arguments.

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    Plane Walker Omedon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by VolitheBear View Post
    Re-read my post, then read your own signature, then read your attempt at a personal jab towards me in lack of any arguments.
    HAHA Fair point, sir, fair point!
    Last edited by Omedon; 09-29-2014 at 01:53 PM.
    "Hope is the denial of reality. It is the carrot dangled before the draft horse to keep him plodding along in a vain attempt to reach it." -Raistlin Majere

    Tales from the Void: http://omedon.tumblr.com

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