Annoyed at the number of P2W posts since the conversion, my thoughts.

[DrainHeart]

I strongly feel that term P2W/Pay to Win is misused to a gross degree in this game. I think people see gear in the store and just automatically assume this game is P2W and once people start saying it is on forums/other social sites people who have never experience a true P2W game think that what RIFT is offering is P2W and just blindly accuse the game of being so.

Firstly, let me explain what a P2W game is from my experience in playing older, F2P titles. The games where I've experience P2W usually don't offer gear for purchase, instead the gear is relatively easy to obtain, but the gear has upgrade paths similar to how RIFT end game gear is. However, the chance of success isn't always guaranteed, and if you upgrade fails, then you usually lose the item. So the way those games make their money is, they offer items to protect the item from breaking and to have a higher success rate to upgrade the item. Usually these items are not obtainable in game and are only available via cash. So players who were really dedicated or desperate to be the best would spend an absurd amount of money, some items would be worth thousands of dollars due to the rarity of success/$ spent.

Now, the reason why a lot of people disliked P2W was due to PVP reasons. Imagine being killed by someone nearly instantly because of the gear difference or outplaying you opponent but still losing by an inch due to the gear and you knowing there was no other way to even compete with that guy unless you spend an absurd amount of money. Yeah that's why P2W is frowned upon, at least from what I've experienced.

Even if RIFT was 100% P2W from a PvE point, why does that bother people? If someone in your group is geared out via $, what are they doing that affects you? They won't be rolling on any gear that you may need since they're maxed, unless they're a jerk. They're likely to be more useful that your average player for your group which means you'll likely have a higher chance of success to complete whatever event you're working on. The only thing I can think that comes to mind is a DPS meter, which isn't even a feature made by the developers of the game. Even so, is your ego that important that you would rather have Trion be less successful over something that isn't that important? That said, I don't think RIFT will ever go fully P2W, since I think that would damage the raiding community and that's why I think that the gear that is available has such discouraging costs.


As far as PvP goes, yes RIFT sells PvP gear but it still requires the prestige level and by the time you get it you should have more than enough currency to purchase it for free, if you don't you're doing something wrong. As far as the PvP boxes goes, I can understand the reasons why some people hate them, but they're available in game, and if you're a Patron, you're able to get quite a bit of them per week. I don't think they're that big of a deal personally, and consider them to be a HUGE waste of RL $ since, but hey if Trion is able to make some extra money off impatient people then I welcome them so long as they're available via gameplay.

People seem to quickly forget that RIFT is free now and while you may of not agreed with the transition it's what needed to happen for Trion Worlds to continue to grow and succeed against it's competition. I'd rather have RIFT be like this, than have it close within the
next year or two. I applaud the RIFT team for their success and while I've disagree with some of way they've done things(I'm looking at you RNG Mounts T_T) I understand and get that they need to make a profit at the end of the day. If you don't like how the game is now, why are you still here? Complaining isn't going to change the way the game is, they've had success with this model and they're sticking to it. So please, stop complaining and find yourself a new title to play since this one obviously isn't for you.

Sorry for any typos/errors, it's late ~_~

[Gruntled]

If you don't like how the game is now, why are you still here?

I drew the late shift short straw, work is slow and the forums are mildly entertaining. I am also slightly interested in 3.0, will probably level though Trion will never get another cent out of me.


my idea of pay to win is not the same as yours, Telara is less an online game and more an online store with some side activities these days.

I don't like lockboxes, PVP gear being for sale or raid gear being obtainable with cash

I enjoy games that are play to win or perhaps more appropriately play to progress, play to earn rewards, I enjoy games that put everyone on an equal playing field with equal access to everything in game - not access that varies with the size of your wallet

My opinion is different to yours, not wrong, jus different and I have as much right to state it on the forums as you (and everybody else) does. regardless of what you find annoying.

RIft has become pay to progress and pay to earn rewards, until 3.0 it is clearly in pay to win territory. thats not really ok and it is in direct contradiction to something Trion said they would never do

"the best gear will always only be obtainable by playing the game"

[Snap]

I won't bother reading your entire post in details since you completely ignored that Pay To Win is entirely subjective.
It is absolutely not literal and can mean a wide range of things.

What a P2W is from YOUR experience doesn't mean anything.

The problem here isn't the fact that the game is in a P2GTBG (Pay To Get The Best Gear) for a month. The problem is that they blatantly lied to their playerbase.

They said that the best gear in game would ALWAYS be earned IN GAME.

Important: RIFT is not “Pay-to-Win”. The best items in the game will always have to be earned in Telara!

You can find this quote here.
On top of it, they said that the PLAYERS were at the CORE of their game. (Look at the video)

I held Trion in very high respect because of that exact philosophy they adopted, and so did a lot of players.
And in the end, even with P2GTBG for a month, I would have accepted it, supported them and even cheered for them if they didn't go, yet again, against their philosophy by giving the players the most terrible reasons they could give as to why they did it.

My thoughts are pretty straight forward on the matter: The expansion is weeks away. The raid tier has been defeated - the major race is over. While the only way to earn these items today is by purchasing a digital CE they are available by playing Nightmare Tide when it is released.

By allowing people to upgrade their existing gear early, we can further encourage people to keep playing the existing content for a bit longer - or in some cases - take an actual crack at it with slightly better gear than they had before.

Find the post here.

If they told us directly: "We did this because we need cash to pay for the expansion expense.", I would have bought the 50$ pack because they would have been honest with us. Obviously they don't have to word it that way, but what matters is that they stay honest with their players.

This excuse Daglar gave us is a business excuse. The players arn't robots, if they can't expect those who they finance to be honest with them, how can there be trust?
The relation between the players and the developers should be one of friendship, not of business.
Making business choices is normal and they need to do it, justifying it with a business explanation is simply terrible.
There is a reason why nearly every store managers tell their employees that the most important thing is the customer. Because the customer is what make a business succesful. Would you buy that box of cereal if an employee offended you in any way, shape or form? Even if you are the only one that is offended by something the employee did, they still would lose your support.

[Geopenguin]

I want even ground. I think ALL gear should be removed from the cash shop (except for costumes). Daglar can sell anything he likes except gear. That is the long and short of it.

[Xxii]

I wonder if in Nightmare TIde we'll be able to by T1 gear one month before the release of T2, because 3 guilds have cleaned it and "it's only one month to wait".

Yeah you can call me a troll but this is a serious question. With the CE move and the "it's ok to sell BiS during one month" I don't know if I have any trust in Trion now, even if a play this game since near 3 years and that I love it.

This kind of move is dangerous, really dangerous.

[Tenof]

Making business choices is normal and they need to do it, justifying it with a business explanation is simply terrible.

In fact, to my eyes, the terriblest thing here is that they tried to hide the smell of it being a purely business-oriented decision, and instead brought up excuses as if they are trying to be helpful to players.
If they started off with giving business-based reasons, players would have been more lenient towards them.

[Snap]

In fact, to my eyes, the terriblest thing here is that they tried to hide the smell of it being a purely business-oriented decision, and instead brought up excuses as if they are trying to be helpful to players.
If they started off with giving business-based reasons, players would have been more lenient towards them.

Yes that is what I meant by business explanation.
It's trying to hide behind excuses that they consider helpful to the players.

[elfaraon]

The only problem is see with t3 gear on cash shop 1 month away from 3.0 is that players who don't have cash wont be able to obtain the best gear in the game just by doing t1 and t2 and some bosses in t3. Trion should put t3 mark on t1 and t2 raids also SLE t3 marks should be increased at least to 100 at this point asap.

[Otts]

When people think about F2P they often think about games like LoL or Dota 2 where cosmetics are the only thing you can get for $, although i remember that you could buy some runes with Riot Points faster they werent hard to get in the first place comepared to what Rift offer for real $.

Time have it's own value too, so if you can buy things which allow you to save lot's of time it is related to pay to win.

For example look at the pvp lock boxes, there's no limit how much real $ you can spend on it daily so it's just a matter of how much $ you want to spend to get things faster. Even if nothing is guaranted there more you spend the more chance you get of getting full BIS gear within just one day. (DIC from boxes and favor will come from patron, + 160% vial + 50% wf stackable buff so 250% favor gain compared to what free player gets. There's also a 9% passive from the guild perks iirc and 5 or 10% from faction pvp buff for closing the pvp rifts)

F2P player with average luck will have to spends months to get it. I have used several 160% tokens + patron bonus and + WF buff for credits and I got only half of the BIS pvp items despite doing all the daily and weekly quests for the marks.

Imho Trion should put more thoughts on getting something like Valve did with Steam workshop and all the cosmetics created by players which are later getting sold. Get rid of selling gear with stats from the store and im sure people will stop seeing it as P2W.

[Pope Zaphod]

Why are people crying about people being able to get better PvE gear for four weeks? As soon as October 8th hits we'll all be leveling again to get to level cap and new shiny imaginary gear. I welcome the change to hit just a wee bit harder in T2 content in the hopes of completing raids that, in one month's time, no one will be running anymore.

Oh, also, IT'S ONLY A GAME. If you want to get riled up about something, look at the Middle East or the homeless situation or something. Sheesh!

[user7]

Why are people crying about people being able to get better PvE gear for four weeks? As soon as October 8th hits we'll all be leveling again to get to level cap and new shiny imaginary gear. I welcome the change to hit just a wee bit harder in T2 content in the hopes of completing raids that, in one month's time, no one will be running anymore.

Oh, also, IT'S ONLY A GAME. If you want to get riled up about something, look at the Middle East or the homeless situation or something. Sheesh!

except t3 gear will get you to 65 and a bit beyond, so this t3.5 should get u a bit beyond that again, most likely into experts if not close. If you can't understand why the hardcore raiders (or anyone else for that matter) that now have to fork out 150 to keep up with the rest of the competition are pissed, then sorry can't help you.

And yes it is only a game, until you have to fork over 150 for that and 80 for both souls and 20 for bag slots etc etc and then its an investment into entertainment medium that people get pissed about if things go wrong just like tv, movies etc etc

no im not a hardcore raider

[user7]

except t3 gear will get you to 65 and a bit beyond, so this t3.5 should get u a bit beyond that again, most likely into experts if not close. If you can't understand why the hardcore raiders (or anyone else for that matter) that now have to fork out 150 to keep up with the rest of the competition are pissed, then sorry can't help you.

And yes it is only a game, until you have to fork over 150 for that and 80 for both souls and 20 for bag slots etc etc and then its an investment into entertainment medium that people get pissed about if things go wrong just like tv, movies etc etc

no im not a hardcore raider

And people get even more pissed when the people you are paying to use that entertainment medium turn around and flat out lie to you about situations.

Sure you can figure it out from all that

[user7]

Why are people crying about people being able to get better PvE gear for four weeks? As soon as October 8th hits we'll all be leveling again to get to level cap and new shiny imaginary gear. I welcome the change to hit just a wee bit harder in T2 content in the hopes of completing raids that, in one month's time, no one will be running anymore.

Oh, also, IT'S ONLY A GAME. If you want to get riled up about something, look at the Middle East or the homeless situation or something. Sheesh!

And seeing as how everyone wants to keep reminding us that trion is a business, the term is "customer complaints" not crying, QQ, whining etc etc

[user7]

Yes i posted 4 times and quoted myself in one.

[Slipmat]

Some people seem to forget if it wasn't for the "casuals" as the 'l33t, pros' like to point out, buying Collectors Editions and stuff, Rift could be shut down. You think all the Devs, designers, art team et al do this from the goodness of their heart? "here guys, we worked so hard doing this, what, you want to give us some money by buying fluff items and supporting the game? no no no, this is all free, we worked for free"

Some people need to wake up and be glad other people are spending money to finance their freeloading playstyle, so what if Jimmy Credit card has 5 weeks of feeling "imba", it's not like he's going to buy an Ultimate CE for 19 of his Guildies and they all upgrade one piece of gear and are suddenly clearing all 4 BoBs