Hate to say it, buit 3.0 is P2W

[silentnights]

You bought boots instead of shoulders? wtf you serious LOL. ok but now put yourself on the same gear as them with a t3 weapon with a good rotation and same rng crit who will win and who would have higher parses?, make sure both are using relic vials and relic crit pots.

Two scenarios here 1) both players have the same BIS gear, one has new upgraded gear. 2) One player has T3 weapon and no near upgrade gear while other player has T2 weapon plus upgraded gear.

In scenario 1, it doesn't freaking matter because both characters can currently down all content.
In scenario 2, it doesn't freaking matter because the guy with the T2 weapons isn't downing all content.

[Adastra]

Except it will last into lvl65 t1 raids if what daglar said is true and the t2-t3 gear can get you into experts.

Achievements do not equal skill or actually having done anything to get said achievement and/or gear ESPECIALLY in a game where you can buy gear/runs/etc

Even if you couldn't pay some guild to carry you through a raid, achievements in general still don't prove anything.

If anything, it would be far better to have a "training center" that is updated along with current content. For example, with 3.0, we can expect normal and expert dungeons as well as Tier 1 of raiding. There would be 3 rooms/instances that players go into alone (cannot receive help from others) and do a timed parse on the dummy (~4-5 minutes in length) and try to defeat it before the timer experts. If they're able to defeat it in the time allowed, they receive an achievement for that "tier".

When more tiers are released, then the training room can have additional rooms added on to allow people to defeat those dummies.

Doing this is optional, but it would be a much more useful tool at least for checking dps in a pug raid. Of course, this isn't foolproof, as it does not check other things such as tanking, healing, or even the ability to handle mechanics.

[Mythor]

Yes I choose boots. Phys crit is my worst stat, would take crit power any day of the week. You don't know how my gear stats are allocated, don't chastise me for my decisions when you don't know my class or the choices I have....LOL

Ok well I see you don't have enough cp like I do I have over 1400 so sacking the crit power for the helm that gives me pcrit with dream orbs tends work in my favor. But my point is your helm is cp I would assume if you look at what your current no 3.5 relic stats give you now with bis orbs and compare them to current t3 relic helmet wouldn't you agree the stat increase will help reguardless?.

If the parses arent correct because of you not having a tier 3 weapon then yes I get it but once you have a tier 3 weapon and have the guy on the on the regular t3 gear vs your 2 pieces of tier 3.5 and the rest t3 is it fair because you put down 150$ and he couldn't?

[Mythor]

Two scenarios here 1) both players have the same BIS gear, one has new upgraded gear. 2) One player has T3 weapon and no near upgrade gear while other player has T2 weapon plus upgraded gear.

In scenario 1, it doesn't freaking matter because both characters can currently down all content.
In scenario 2, it doesn't freaking matter because the guy with the T2 weapons isn't downing all content.

But its the fact if they both have tier 3 weapons and still down the content which one is going to be doing more dmg with a perfect rotation, if both are the same class?. Sure you can pull it doesn't matter card but could the guy who doesn't have the upgrade have to put down 150$ to get a slight advantage yes.

That's the point you don't do that you let the game end then you open up with a special when everyone already finished SL. It's alot more fair for everyone because everyone in the end will get that 150$ cuz its new content and old content is less meaningful but when content is still relevent even giving people a slight advantage is still frowned upon.

Raiding for me is about working towards your goal not hey I have a paycheck let me spend it on items that will give a advantage over others,Its not right in my books. Everyone is in fact entitled to they're own opinion and I respect that but I just flat out don't care if its .00001% advantage its the principal they said they would not do that and they did.

[ginc]

I might be biased given my kill date on Maelforge, but the T3.5 armor is only "pay to win" under a very narrow definition: it might help a guild "win" in a race against time if their objective is to kill Laethys and Maelforge before 3.0 is released.

However, in all likelihood it won't put a guild over the top. Laethys and Maelforge are not major gear checks (especially not since the Pyro changes), and even if they were, we're talking armor upgrades here, which are a small upgrade to tank survivability and an even smaller upgrade to DPS and healing capability. Its been said already in this thread, and ask any guild that's either completed the content or is currently working on it: they succeed or fail based on players doing the things.

"Pay to win" is definitely hyperbole. That being said, its definitely a cash grab aimed at the usual suspects: OCD min-maxers, raiders struggling with content, people who like shiny things, etc.

I can also see why people feel "betrayed" when Trion has strongly implied that purchaseable items would never be significantly better than anything earned in-game.

Not only that, but I just don't like the timing on this. 5 full weeks with purchaseable BiS items that don't have any in-game equivalent is way too long and 3 guilds having cleared content (at the time of release, now 4) is too few. IMO these upgrade packages should have been released no sooner than 2 weeks before the 3.0 launch, and I would have personally gone with 1 week. That way people would see it as a marketing push for 3.0, not a cash grab.

[Uviktig]

Meh -

I logged in during my lunch break today to use my Accelerators because I didn't take the time last night as I needed to get up for an early call at my full time job and have a parent-teacher event this evening for one of my children.

Get my accelerators out and....

1. Gear must be relic in order to use them
2. For the T3 relic pieces I have earned I would be exchanging spell power or crit power for spell crit (no thank you.)
3. The +42 endurance I would get for upgrading my T2 chest would not save me from that which killed me on Tuesday night.
4. My accelerators are safely back in Tab 2 of my bank gathering dust - I don't think they're as good as everyone else claims.

At this time, someone else receiving gear from whichever means will not make my gear irrelevant, meaningless, or less useful during the next 2 months, nor does their gear negate my personal sense of accomplishment and the pride I have in the friends with whom I raid. The people whose opinion I value know how I got my gear.

As for advantages in 3.0? The "High End" raiding community has been asking for more competition among guilds. Bring it on! My vacation request has been sent to my boss, my personal calendar cleared, and my family notified that they may not hog the bandwidth from October 8th "Servers are now on-line" until I get to 65. I hope to see you all there hunting as well.

[silentnights]

Yes I went with CP upgrades so I could swap out a piece of gear for AP. I'm capped as well but know that AP helps me more than PC. I also know that a nerf or buff will do way more to my character (and the raid as a whole) than these two minor upgrades will. I'm in a primarily T2 raiding guild with 3/5 2/3 2/4 minis which is where the majority of raiders are at. I fall into the majority and feel that these items are not going to somehow magically increase the general level of raid awareness of those that I play with. Time and practice are going to do that faster than gear. Out of our core group of raiders only 2 or 3 are below 600 hit, and all are pulling numbers that will down greenscale/akylios. Gear is not the problem, nor the solution to the current issues that raiders are having.

[LungingWolf]

We have peeps running around in T3 relics just because they plunked down $150. Plus only two of my FES gear are upgradeable while my raid dropped gear is not.

I think that the whole idea of purchasable, requirement-less raid gear is unnecessary and harmful.

First, it is fundamentally unnecessary as a business decision. The are many alternatives to generating more income, first and foremost player-made content and appropriate profit sharing with the player.

When the players feel like they are able to make a game "their own", as in according to how they think it should be, then they will dedicate themselves to a game. It's that simple. You want a cult following. For a basic example, think player mods like mods for the The Elder Scrolls series or mods for classic Doom--the potential for replayability in such games is limitless. And, for a proper example in MMORPGs, think Everquest: Landmark (though I'm not sure how Everquest: Next's gameplay is yet).

Add methods for players earning profits on top of that and--bam--you've got a lot of players ready, willing, and able to dig into your game with their best effort.

All the Rift team would have to do is look over, select, and use whatever good content is sent their way. Sure, there is work involved here, but the payoff would outweigh it.

Now, I know that Ocho said that doing such a thing is legally complicated. But, frankly, with Daglar frequently mentioning that the Rift team only has so much resources to work with when addressing player feedback and suggestions, the need for the delegation of work to the players is clear. The Rift team cannot gripe about having limited resources and, at the same time, refuse the suggestion for player-made content and appropriate profit sharing without raising questions about their willingness to search for solutions to Rift's problems.

Second, it is harmful as a band-aid which covers over the fundamental problems with Rift.

• If Rift is supposed to be about fun, then why would the players pay to skip content? Obviously they--some of the non-"l33t" folks--want to skip some unpleasant aspect of the game. What is it, avoiding yet another grind ... avoiding the second job of raiding ... ?
• If Rift is supposed to be about gaming, then how can you challenge players with the goal of getting better gear through raiding, if you allow the player to pay to skip the challenge, at least in large part? Isn't raiding before you get better gear part of the challenge? Or is this some kind of subtle admission that there is no meaningful challenge involved in this process or the Rift team just doesn't care what the players do?

Either way, something more fundamental in Rift needs fixed.

Every day Rift inches closer and closer to P2W as it travels a thinner and thinner line. How thin does this line have to get before the Rift team considers enlisting the players for help?

[Lords0fpain]

As a guild leader and raid leader, I despise raid gear being sold for cash. Seeing a player come to a raid in full T2 with now one or two T3 (3.5 actually) relics and die to every mechanic, have crappy dps and just be completely lost because they have *never* set foot in a raid is.. well.. not fun.

Having a team that is well geared that has earned every drop by becoming better and better each week is rewarding and exciting.

I can understand (though I disagree with) the decision to try to get more people into the T3 raids before the xpac drops, but I think this was a terrible way to go about that. Something could have been done in game - nerf the raids, drop extra gear in T2 content, add the T3 raid currency to T2 raids, whatever. But no, Trion decided to make that quick cash grab and sell better than T3 gear pieces.

But whatever! It's done. Daglar clearly thinks it was a brilliant move and that's that.

However, it leaves a question as to what the cash shop is going to look like in 3.0. Will raid gear only drop in raids or will there always be a cash option now? This is an important question that I would really like to see the answer to.

Clearly, Daglar also isn't upset with people choosing to leave the game over this, so may as well fess up now and be straight with us.

Is the game going "Pay to Win" ? Are you going to be selling top end raid gear for cash in 3.0? A lot of people would like to know this before investing in 3.0 digital editions, or even simply investing more time in the game.

So how about a nice clear answer, Daglar?

Pay to win - defined as selling BiS raid and or PvP gear for cash or Free to Play - defined as in your own quote - the best gear in the game can only be earned by playing the game.

Which is it? I want to know before I decide whether or not to buy one of those shiny fancy digital edition packs.

Sadly, if the question has to be asked....you probably already know the answer....

[Galibier]

How about you guys put yourselves in the seat of those who actually work a job and still play the game at end content, then have to see that the gear you have atm 5 weeks prior to expansion is nothing more then worthless because your helm and shoulder got about over 80+ stats not only dream orbs but the boost is actually quite noticable.

The problem is as you people say I am cool with is because you don't raid at the top level and probably wont, Its like you guys don't put yourselves in other peoples shoes. If this crap gave pvp gear a upgrade with those accelerators I bet 10/10 you pvper's would be screaming up a storm about it.

Just because 3.0 is coming out in 5 weeks should not give incentive to give any form of advantage be it pve or pvp. All this is doing is making the casuals catch up cool couldn't you do it right at expansion date with a rift special store sale?, not to mention the whole Bis will never be bought with cash.

Why don't you actually see how much of a increase those stats are with dream orbs and try comparing it to regular relic t3 or t2 items, Nothing can compare to it. A advantage is a advantage and this is BIS no matter how you try to defend it. You wanna say im a casual and deserve this then you as a individual are being ignorant of how other feel about this.

I did do the math. For tanks yes definitely BiS. For dps a couple pieces, healing 1 piece etc. It makes me laugh really. Many of the people screaming this is all BiS are the same people who said don't trust that BiS calculator because it is just simple total stat weights so it might not be BiS.

But yeah I suppose logic is never consistent on MMO, it should be flexible enough to serve an agenda.

Like I said I think introducing this stuff pre-3.0 was a bad idea. It is causing drama. However of you stop...turn of the sense of self righteousness. Look at the totality, both cause AND effect. The effect is going to be bupkis. Good players are still going to be good players bads will be bads and all of the gear in the world, especially when some of it is NOT BiS for particular roles, is not going to help a bad Kill a mob today they could not kill yesterday.

[rnor6084]

Dagler sells a game, a bit of distraction from the real world. In this case he sold you 18-24 hours or recreation. Unfortunately you appear to be one of those people who can't have fun, and a series of significant thinking errors has led you to make some poor time-usage choices -- instead of having fun, you view those hours as an investment in your self-worth, and as a tool to designate yourself as "better" than someone who spent their leisure time doing something else. I for one hope you go find a place where you can be happy, and stop poisoning our community, because that's not fun for anyone.

BOOM

[Narcise]

Dagler sells a game, a bit of distraction from the real world. In this case he sold you 18-24 hours of recreation. Unfortunately you appear to be one of those people who can't have fun, and a series of significant thinking errors has led you to make some poor time-usage choices -- instead of having fun, you view those hours as an investment in your self-worth, and as a tool to designate yourself as "better" than someone who spent their leisure time doing something else. I for one hope you go find a place where you can be happy, and stop poisoning our community, because that's not fun for anyone.

Pretty much this. I find the whole someone has better orange pixels than me complex a little bit odd.

Bingos.....

[PeterVP]

You people still don't get it.

It's the lack of ethics and honesty.

Long term players will know the promises made by the Executive Producer.

They've now become lies.

If you seriously think the argument is about orange pixels, skill, or 'winning' you need to wake up.

People have invested thousands of hours and dollars into the game based on a marketing promise. They've stumbled through seeing mounts they paid for, which promised them to be exclusive, be renamed and sold to everyone. Seeing BiS gear hidden in lockboxes, seeing PVP become a biggest wallet earns relic (top tier) gear first. Now this.

Trion must love all the attention being focused on the word 'win' and arguments of better purchased gear not allowing the average player to progress any further because it means the actual intelligent, genuine concerns are hidden and they get off scot-free.

[Narcise]

You people still don't get it.

It's the lack of ethics and honesty.

Long term players will know the promises made by the Executive Producer.

They've now become lies.

If you seriously think the argument is about orange pixels, skill, or 'winning' you need to wake up.

People have invested thousands of hours and dollars into the game based on a marketing promise. They've stumbled through seeing mounts they paid for, which promised them to be exclusive, be renamed and sold to everyone. Seeing BiS gear hidden in lockboxes, seeing PVP become a biggest wallet earns relic (top tier) gear first. Now this.

Trion must love all the attention being focused on the word 'win' and arguments of better purchased gear not allowing the average player to progress any further because it means the actual intelligent, genuine concerns are hidden and they get off scot-free.

Um.... anyone who believes anything a dev for any product - whether OS or game - says is really smoking something strange.

Seriously.

[user7]

Do you have a quote for that? Afaik Daglar only stated that the best current gear would take you to "Level 65 and a bit beyond" (or something like that). Players assume it means that Tier 3 gear will get you into Level 65 experts. Afaik it hasn't been confirmed.

From ocho: I'd say up to experts/entry raiding. Not a hard fact, just somewhat informed speculation on my part.

http://forums.riftgame.com/general-d...ke-you-nt.html