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Thread: AH undercuts by default...why?

  1. #16
    Rift Disciple
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    As previously discussed in game chat, auto-undercutting is really bad for me. I used to craft vials for raids, like 100, and sell those that are over my personal stack. The income from such operation was a net gain of about 60 plat per week (I just buy the reagents, I use to gather resources by myself).
    Now, if I create an auction for a stack, I have to pay in advance at least 2% (48 hours) and I risk to have the vials unsold because whoever will place the same item after me have the advantage to create a cheaper auction... so if before the patch I would say.. "ok somebody is selling at a lower price, I will lower my price next time" now I say "why should I create the auction if I know that next one will sell at a lower price and my products remain unsold, and I have to pay just to try to sell them?".
    For me to craft vials for my personal use and sell the remaining number of vials is no longer convenient. Same for coruscating and infinity cauldrons and dyes and so on... Result: I will have less plat, I could buy less REX, people will sell less REX, Trion will gain less $ from REX Seller.
    I can't really see the gain on this... I will farm chronicles for plat... or random mob hoping for some equipment drop to sell to the vendor. For sure I will be more cautious on spending plats.
    FT 4/4 - EE 4/5 - GA 4/4 - PBB 3/5 - IG 2/3 - BoB 2/8

  2. #17
    Ascendant Narcise's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xanduin246 View Post
    For some players it is considered rude. For me it's like saying, "I want mine to sell for the most amount possible, but I don't want yours to sell before mine, so I'm going to undercut as minimally as possible."

    It's similar to bidding $1 over someone else in The Price is Right.

    EDIT: And the people who refuse to do this often will not buy auctions that undercut by 1s. If I see a 9p 99g 99s auction, I'll keep scrolling until I find the 10p auction. Personal preference is all, I don't judge other's character for doing it (the above quote is self-loathing, not how I see others), I just won't support it.
    Both my daughter and I do this too. I really really dislike people who list 1s under someone, and the fact that the AH UI now does this "for" me seriously pisses me off. When I undercut another seller, it's for a decent figure - usually I micromanage my seldom-sharp math skills to undercut by around 10% on smaller amounts, up to around 25% on larger ones.

    I just won't buy an auction that undercuts by 1s. Tacky, just tacky.

  3. #18
    Champion R0NlN's Avatar
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    Here's the reasoning, as I see it.

    It's an attempt (when done consciously) to undercut someone else without it really costing you anything. It also treats the buyer like they're an idiot, and can be fooled into thinking they're getting a better deal, just because the number is smaller. Yeah, technically, it's a "better" deal. But I'm not a robot, so I recognize it as an attempt to manipulate me into buying from the undercutter.

    If you want to sell me with an undercut, make it be one that presents a "real" difference. Whether that's a gold, 50 gold, 49 silver, whatever it may be. Don't be that Used Car Salesman who promises you the "best prices in town!", but makes sure that's true only by $1. Nobody wants to buy from that guy.

    As for the AH doing this by default (or setting ANY automatic undercut) I don't see the rational in that. I objected while this was all in development. I also wrote a thread that addresses the consequences-- that is, recommending that people sell items for less than vendor price, and crashing the market-- but it was largely ignored. Including by the Dev I PM'd to get their thoughts on it.

    http://forums.riftgame.com/general-d...dor-price.html
    Last edited by R0NlN; 08-10-2014 at 04:06 PM. Reason: For link.

  4. #19
    Ascendant Narcise's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by R0NlN View Post
    Here's the reasoning, as I see it.

    It's an attempt (when done consciously) to undercut someone else without it really costing you anything. It also treats the buyer like they're an idiot, and can be fooled into thinking they're getting a better deal, just because the number is smaller. Yeah, technically, it's a "better" deal. But I'm not a robot, so I recognize it as an attempt to manipulate me into buying from the undercutter.

    If you want to sell me with an undercut, make it be one that presents a "real" difference. Whether that's a gold, 50 gold, 49 silver, whatever it may be. Don't be that Used Car Salesman who promises you the "best prices in town!", but makes sure that's true only by $1. Nobody wants to buy from that guy.

    As for the AH doing this by default (or setting ANY automatic undercut) I don't see the rational in that. I objected while this was all in development. I also wrote a thread that addresses the consequences-- that is, recommending that people sell items for less than vendor price, and crashing the market-- but it was largely ignored. Including by the Dev I PM'd to get their thoughts on it.

    http://forums.riftgame.com/general-d...dor-price.html
    Yes, I saw the thread. You're a thoughtful person, and you presented your data very well. So thumbs down to Trion for ignoring it....

    But truthfully - thumbs down to Trion for this whole fiasco. *sigh*

  5. #20
    Prophet of Telara
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    Quote Originally Posted by Narcise View Post
    Yes, I saw the thread. You're a thoughtful person, and you presented your data very well. So thumbs down to Trion for ignoring it....

    But truthfully - thumbs down to Trion for this whole fiasco. *sigh*
    That's what happens when you have a terrible new system such as this "new and improved ah"

    Undercutting is fine, when I mean undercutting I mean selling bulk 5% cheaper than other people, people can profit off the cheap mats aka buying low and selling high later on that's basic economics.

    This new AH just promotes the 1 silver undercut to keep their items listing above, it's far to expensive to cancel auctions and re post them.

    At least old auction house allowed a fair market, as canceling auctions did not lose you profit.

    People who complained about mass undercutting on the old auction house, are people who don't know how economies work in real life and in MMOs. I made hundreds of plat off the bulk cheap mats on AH and just re sold those mats on WED reset for 4x the amount that I paid for it, making large chunks of plat.

    This new auction house is just a bad way to limit player income. Trion just making the community more upset with changes like this.
    Last edited by DriftinARift; 08-10-2014 at 05:07 PM.

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vhivi View Post
    On the rare occasion that I do look for items on the auction house, The only reason I'll buy something that is listed down to 1 silver difference is when the item only costs a few silver anyway and that 1 silver is actually in the 5% range.

    You think it's optimal? Whatever. I'll pass up yours and buy the more expensive (by a measly silver) every time. You end up not selling as much. Kind of hard to get optimal out of no sales

    The point of undercutting is to give the customer a deal so you sell more. A 1 silver undercut is just attempting to game the game so to speak. No deal, then no sale.
    There are more then enough buyers willing to buy the item that is 1 silver cheaper. you not buying items that are 1 silver less makes no difference - there is always someone that will

    there is nothing wrong with undercutting by 1 silver, it is a valid and successful tactic
    people who undercut by more than that are not better, more moral, more righteous or more honest. they are just making less money.

    undercutting is undercutting whether it is 1 silver or 100 plat. the aim is to sell not give the best deal to buyers.
    Quote Originally Posted by Frailaq View Post

    tl;dr - Trion should do this: Melee = Turret Ranged > Mobile Ranged

  7. #22
    Ascendant Narcise's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DriftinARift View Post
    That's what happens when you have a terrible new system such as this "new and improved ah"

    Undercutting is fine, when I mean undercutting I mean selling bulk 5% cheaper than other people, people can profit off the cheap mats aka buying low and selling high later on that's basic economics.

    This new AH just promotes the 1 silver undercut to keep their items listing above, it's far to expensive to cancel auctions and re post them.

    At least old auction house allowed a fair market, as canceling auctions did not lose you profit.

    People who complained about mass undercutting on the old auction house, are people who don't know how economies work in real life and in MMOs. I made hundreds of plat off the bulk cheap mats on AH and just re sold those mats on WED reset for 4x the amount that I paid for it, making large chunks of plat.

    This new auction house is just a bad way to limit player income. Trion just making the community more upset with changes like this.
    I believe you are entirely correct. Sucks.... but at least you have it figured.... Well, so do I, and THAT sucks too, because I was REALLY enjoying this game after so many years elsewhere.

  8. #23
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    As a seller, you have a fiscal responsibility to maximize profit. If to guarantee a sale you have to set the price 0.01$ less than your competitors then that is what you have to do

    As a buyer, you have a fiscal responsibility to minimize the amount spent to get the maximum service possible.

    To everyone in this thread saying that they wouldn't buy something that is listed 1 silver less than competitors because it's not fair. Would you be happy getting 1 dollar an hour less than you are now? Oor even 1 dollar per day? Would you be happy to spend 1 more dollar per meal?
    < NIRVANA >
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  9. #24
    Ascendant Narcise's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rhoneen View Post
    As a seller, you have a fiscal responsibility to maximize profit. If to guarantee a sale you have to set the price 0.01$ less than your competitors then that is what you have to do

    As a buyer, you have a fiscal responsibility to minimize the amount spent to get the maximum service possible.

    To everyone in this thread saying that they wouldn't buy something that is listed 1 silver less than competitors because it's not fair. Would you be happy getting 1 dollar an hour less than you are now? Oor even 1 dollar per day? Would you be happy to spend 1 more dollar per meal?
    Has no point with what some of us feel about 1s undercutters, because this isn't real life. So there's no reason to ask questions which presuppose RL needs/attitudes about a game AH.

  10. #25
    Soulwalker
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    The same economic principles which govern real life economic interactions also govern in game economic interactions. If they didn't then why have an auction house at all? Why not just have a communal guild bank where players can Get the crafting mats they need and no more?
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  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Irishae View Post
    It is very annoying that AH is set to automatically undercut every new listing by 1 silver.
    Why wouldn't it, sounds like what it should do. Probably saves the majority of players the steps of searching and then typing in the same amount.

  12. #27
    Ascendant Narcise's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rhoneen View Post
    The same economic principles which govern real life economic interactions also govern in game economic interactions. If they didn't then why have an auction house at all? Why not just have a communal guild bank where players can Get the crafting mats they need and no more?
    Nope. That's not how it works. A game economy has no relevance at all to real life, nor should it.

  13. #28
    Rift Master LeCreaux's Avatar
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    I completely disagree with the whole argument of this topic. From a business perspective it's nonsense. A seller in any market is trying make a sale, not give anybody a "deal" unless it results in future sales to cover the loss. A buyer is trying to get the most product for their currency.

    If you want to buy gas at a station that's a penny more expensive then that's your own choice. The rest of the consuming world will buy at the cheaper station. It's basic economics, not any kind of of morality issue.

  14. #29
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    You are wrong (above) and OP is right.

    Take a simple example... there are 100 sellers listing dream orbs at 40 plat each.

    One seller needs cash quick so lists 1 at 30 plat.

    The next bunch of sellers who go to list dream orbs are prompted to sell at 29.99p.

    This devalues products. It likely means all those 100 sellers at 40p do not sell and lose out with the listing fee. It also contributes to killing the market.

    How this whole new AH made it to Live without any of these problems being identified is pretty worrying.

    I've logged in probably 50% less than usual since the change. A dead market means less logged time for farming mats and selling, I no longer hunt for rare bounties and unstables because it's next to pointless listing them on the AH, etc etc. I'd assume many will be in the same boat.

  15. #30
    Ascendant Techie Will's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeterVP View Post
    You are wrong (above) and OP is right.

    Take a simple example... there are 100 sellers listing dream orbs at 40 plat each.

    One seller needs cash quick so lists 1 at 30 plat.

    The next bunch of sellers who go to list dream orbs are prompted to sell at 29.99p.

    This devalues products. It likely means all those 100 sellers at 40p do not sell and lose out with the listing fee. It also contributes to killing the market.

    How this whole new AH made it to Live without any of these problems being identified is pretty worrying.

    I've logged in probably 50% less than usual since the change. A dead market means less logged time for farming mats and selling, I no longer hunt for rare bounties and unstables because it's next to pointless listing them on the AH, etc etc. I'd assume many will be in the same boat.
    This happened before (although much less frequently). It's simply the market keeping itself in check to stem off inflation. If anything, the new AH is much worse for the sellers and much better for buyers.

    It does nothing to "kill" any market, unless you're talking about sellers no longer wanting to participate because their profit margins are smaller. That's a personal choice. The only thing that can effectively kill a market is buyers drying up. Sellers going away would actually help bring the market back up from a low point. Supply and demand.
    Last edited by Techie Will; 08-10-2014 at 07:38 PM.


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