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Thread: Given the demand for a good PvP game, why does Trion not fix theirs?

  1. #76
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    I will also ask: Since Guild Wars 2 seems to be both successful AND critically acclaimed, and is also for the largest part of it PvP-oriented, why aren't people that pursue a MMO with good PvP trying it? Is it the fact that they have to buy the box first? Or is it because ArenaNet actually heavily punishes players that stray away from the acceptable lines and throw out permabans for what other MMOs might just give infractions?

  2. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Mits View Post
    I will also ask: Since Guild Wars 2 seems to be both successful AND critically acclaimed, and is also for the largest part of it PvP-oriented, why aren't people that pursue a MMO with good PvP trying it? Is it the fact that they have to buy the box first? Or is it because ArenaNet actually heavily punishes players that stray away from the acceptable lines and throw out permabans for what other MMOs might just give infractions?
    I played GW1, and while I know GW1 and GW2 aren't the same game here's why:
    In GW1:
    Because I don't like the small number of abilities that you can have at any one time. It makes everything I play seem extremely one dimensional.

    I didn't care for the small scale arena PvP as all there was. At least for the several weeks I played that's all I saw.

    I didn't find any of the classes in GW1 fun to play for some reason. I honestly can't say why. I just found all of them kind of boring. I think that might come back to the limited abilities.

    So why would I play a game that is a successor to a game that I found boring?
    Last edited by Credo; 01-14-2014 at 12:46 PM.
    Even free cost too much now

  3. #78
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    When your games target audience is sooo taken care of and catered to this is what you get. I spill bout of pvp vs pve.



    Trions target audiance: Any one with a salty experience with WoW (we arent in azeroth anymore) most salty about that game sit in contempt about small scale pvp. Why? Well they do it well. PvE solo and raiders. These players have no interests is PvP, but love to talk about how vile and unhelpfull pvpers are. People who HATED wow trolls, they though rift would be better and thats why these babys freak out and bump threads about trolling all day.


    To sum it up rift tapped the line from the oldest, most thickheaded, most conservative and carebear llike vien and thought it would carry them to success. Now they are struggling years after warnings from players who enjoyed all and every aspect of mmos and not just one.

    Ive watched NON pvp "lol community ambassadors" point players looking for pvp in other directions. Ive seen raid guilds exploit and lie, Ive seen raiders humilate other raiders on a personal level. Ive heard storys about ex dev guild members. There is no ****ing difference between the two communitys besides the fact that one of you is catered to and the other is not.

    I used to Raid in HK I think I have a 2011 pre nerf clear achieve or something, world 4th I think? I never actually started pvping in mmos until I played rift ironicly. If you got to open world pvp in 2011 you would understand why.

    Im going to start spending my time trolling pve request threads. Apparently its only apropriate to do when you are a pver on a pvp request thread.



    Tldr: raiders are just as scummy as pvpers, community ambassadors are a pointless joke, and trion likes old *** conservative people.
    Last edited by Keota; 01-14-2014 at 01:38 PM.
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  4. #79
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    Pretty much with Zoar said. The pve community these days are a lot worse then what's left of the pvp community.

    Tons of Addiction members are super racist and ignorant but get away with it in game. If you watched any of the Streams like that one female who has a special forum account for "community website operator" You would see how much of a disgusting human they are.

    Spaming N words, calling people fa---(homosexual slur) non stop. Not to mention they really go full highschool on taking this game so seriously they deeply show personal hate for people and make their life a living hell every chance they get on this game.

    I never seen the pvp community do this. Mired's pvp crew is the most mannered respectable people in rift. Deepwood is where most of the pvp community is and my god are they respectable and kind people.

    Then you go to Greybriar and see all the racist special treatment raiders spew disgusting filith.

    Why on earth is Trion catering to those people? Come on balance the content out and stop giving people special treatment. Treat everyone the same.

  5. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paanu View Post
    As someone said earlier in the thread and I'm paraphrasing, "Perhaps all of the supposed millions of pvper's should get together and utilize kickstarter to fund development of the pvp game they want."

    I figure it won't last 6 months but go ahead and make the effort and prove to the doubters that you are more than a vocal minority.
    Maybe it was my comment of that nature earlier in this and other threads, periodically for almost 3 years now, that you refer to. There are indeed a great many pvp players, but the most successful games have been First Person Shooter types with the cross-hair sites, such as Quake and the like. Those types of pvp games are still going, too, after all this time. Trion gave FPS a try with Defiance, and I think that game would have succeeded if they had been able to handle the very many persistent and annoying technical issues in time to avoid player base loss, but it flopped and I think that's the only reason why. I don't mean to be anything but observant when I state my opinion that Trion is their own very worst enemy because they are persistently internally disorganized with infighting and ego and because of that, and while the company still exists, it isn't getting the public reputation it should get (and could and once had) to exist in a much better state. PvP players in Rift have, IMO, contributed enough to the existence of this game to feel entitled to more than just financing pve or entirely different Trion games. PvE has succeeded because it has received the passion from Trion that has only occasionally existed for PvP.

    So yes, I do believe FPS games show by long history that there is a huge PvP market, But there does not yet exist a successful MMO style of PvP, which really only differs in how graphics is presented (no cross-hair targeting). I think the market demand is there, and if an existing company can't figure a way to profit like FPS games can with PvP then because nature abhors a vacuum there exists a market that a properly done Kickstarter project could succeed at.
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  6. #81
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    What pvpers consider a pvp player: anyone who does a few warfronts a day. Still actively contributing to the shorter que times and game play of something they take part in.

    What pvers consider a pve player: anyone who crafts, runs the auction house, or farms herbs & ores for fun. Anyone who 5 man dungeons or solo chronicles (even though the game is catered to end game raiders). Anyone who raids either t1 or t2 content, or is currently looking to gear for it. Anyone who achieve hunts, looks for rare spawns, solves puzzles or guilds new arrival to show them the ropes.


    No wonder we are verbally outnumbered... Sad thing is I can count more PvP players who have constructively contributed to those other aspects of the game while SUPPORTING ALL ASPECTS of the game then PvE players.

    There are raiders who support forward PvP content production, in end game raiding guilds even. Mostly because I think they want to PvP in off hours but cant stomach the crap content. Either way the only people I say bouting it are the ones with some unhealthy vendetta against the typical "pvp player" stereotype.
    Last edited by Keota; 01-14-2014 at 02:13 PM.
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  7. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by Credo View Post
    I played GW1, and while I know GW1 and GW2 aren't the same game here's why:
    In GW1:
    Because I don't like the small number of abilities that you can have at any one time. It makes everything I play seem extremely one dimensional.

    I didn't care for the small scale arena PvP as all there was. At least for the several weeks I played that's all I saw.

    I didn't find any of the classes in GW1 fun to play for some reason. I honestly can't say why. I just found all of them kind of boring. I think that might come back to the limited abilities.

    So why would I play a game that is a successor to a game that I found boring?
    I would have answered identically, not being one of the 3m who bought GW2.

    Had exactly the same experience as the poster I quoted.

    As to kickstarter and other such comments.

    Just because you like PvP and enjoy the PvP community, doesn't mean that this is all you want to do?

    When was the world so black and white, you are either a PvPer or a PvEer?

    Now I don't currently raid because my schedule simply doesn't allow it, which is why I like the drop-in PvP of Rift, but I used to raid a hell of a lot, right back to Everquest, through WoW and all its clones.

    You can enjoy both aspects of a game.

  8. #83
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    To answer the OP's question, "Since the demand exists for a PvP game, why doesn't Trion fix theirs?"

    Very, very easy answer here. PvP players demand lots of things and they do so loudly. But, as DAoC proved and countless other PvP games since (to include CoD series, Battlefield series, and so on)...

    PvP players don't like PvP games. They don't play them very long. They don't invest in them. They hop from one game to the next... crying as they go from title to title. They've played the best and worst PvP games ever made.

    The problem is that they treat them all the same and developers learned over the past 5 or so years that the demographic is a loser in the MMO market because it is too niche and too flighty to monetize. It thrives in games like CoD where overhead for continuing maintenance is very low and the investment that comes at purchase combined with a trickle of microtransactions easily pays for the paltry amount of content and support that comes with those types of games.

    There's your answer. There is just no incentive for developers to lose money on an MMO by developing for a PvP playerbase that only drives away other players and is absolutely guaranteed to force the developer to net financial losses.
    Last edited by Laeris; 01-14-2014 at 11:29 PM.

  9. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Mits View Post
    I will also ask: Since Guild Wars 2 seems to be both successful AND critically acclaimed, and is also for the largest part of it PvP-oriented, why aren't people that pursue a MMO with good PvP trying it? Is it the fact that they have to buy the box first? Or is it because ArenaNet actually heavily punishes players that stray away from the acceptable lines and throw out permabans for what other MMOs might just give infractions?
    simple: gw2 pvp is just bad.

  10. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paanu View Post
    As someone said earlier in the thread and I'm paraphrasing, "Perhaps all of the supposed millions of pvper's should get together and utilize kickstarter to fund development of the pvp game they want."

    I figure it won't last 6 months but go ahead and make the effort and prove to the doubters that you are more than a vocal minority.
    already done:

    http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/...ained?ref=live

  11. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drakanish View Post
    [...]As to kickstarter and other such comments.

    Just because you like PvP and enjoy the PvP community, doesn't mean that this is all you want to do?

    When was the world so black and white, you are either a PvPer or a PvEer?

    Now I don't currently raid because my schedule simply doesn't allow it, which is why I like the drop-in PvP of Rift, but I used to raid a hell of a lot, right back to Everquest, through WoW and all its clones.

    You can enjoy both aspects of a game.
    lol
    I know what I do enjoy a lot and what I tolerate because I have to but don't enjoy as much. I do acknowledge that some people just hate pvp, and some people just hate pve, and some people enjoy both aspects. But I don't need to be told what I "can" do, I already know what I "want" to do. For me, playing against a player isn't something I can memorize and learn how to expertly execute. A human is unpredictable. That's not something that "artificial intelligence" (and there is no such being that has been created by mankind yet) in a pve environment can properly simulate, because it's not rule or RNG based at its core. Humans are emotional, and that's what makes playing against them unpredictable. I find it exciting; more so than any existing program or RNG action can reproduce. I might not be able to out memorize or react faster than a computer, but any human can out think one. To allow that to be fun requires an environment that has enforced rules for engagement, fairness in matching teams against each other, and some sort of carrot for rewards (just like pve does).

    I only do pve when there is no way to get my carrot by pvp means. Since I don't consider myself a sheep by any stretch of imagination, I don't like being required to do pve in order to do what I really like = pvp. Any more than people who don't want to do pvp like having to do it to progress in pve. For those who like both aspects, pve and pvp, they progress slower. Since I have 3 other classes to progress I'm in no danger of being bored after I max out one class and while waiting for it to have new carrots to chase. Problem is, lots of pretty carrots exist for pve compared to pvp. I guess my money isn't as appreciated, although I've spent a ton on this game. I've certainly done my part to help support this game from the first day of Headstart. And it helps others get to play who can't or don't support Trion that way. And it helps pay the devs to develop games I couldn't care less about, I just want this one to turn out as was expected by many at launch. So I don't understand why there seems to be attitude and lack of appreciation compared to what pve players get. But what the heck, it F2P now and maybe that's the way it should be.
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  12. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by Laeris View Post
    It thrives in games like CoD where overhead for continuing maintenance is very low and the investment that comes at purchase combined with a trickle of microtransactions easily pays for the paltry amount of content and support that comes with those types of games.
    And don't forget the simplicity of the game design compared to an MMO like RIft.

    Opponents are basically one-shot in first person shooter games. (1-6 shots, but this happens in seconds) For some reason in Rift-like games people will not tolerate this.

    So we get healers, buffs coming on and going off, tank classes that can absorb ridiculous amounts of damage, ranged damage, melee damage...

    CoD devs have few balance issues to contend with in comparison. Add in near instant respawn and even a brand new player can have fun on the first day.

  13. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by Laeris View Post
    To answer the OP's question, "Since the demand exists for a PvP game, why doesn't Trion fix theirs?"

    Very, very easy answer here. PvP players demand lots of things and they do so loudly. But, as DAoC proved and countless other PvP games since (to include CoD series, Battlefield series, and so on)...

    PvP players don't like PvP games. They don't play them very long. They don't invest in them. They hop from one game to the next... crying as they go from title to title. They've played the best and worst PvP games ever made.

    The problem is that they treat them all the same and developers learned over the past 5 or so years that the demographic is a loser in the MMO market because it is too niche and too flighty to monetize. It thrives in games like CoD where overhead for continuing maintenance is very low and the investment that comes at purchase combined with a trickle of microtransactions easily pays for the paltry amount of content and support that comes with those types of games.

    There's your answer. There is just no incentive for developers to lose money on an MMO by developing for a PvP playerbase that only drives away other players and is absolutely guaranteed to force the developer to net financial losses.
    I know right? I certainly didn't play DAOC for almost 8 years just for PvP. Nope. All PvP players are just fickle jerks.
    Even free cost too much now

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    Quote Originally Posted by Credo View Post
    I know right? I certainly didn't play DAOC for almost 8 years just for PvP. Nope. All PvP players are just fickle jerks.
    Such sarcasm, lol. But who you quoted made a valid point that boils down to toxicity. Which is most prevalent in the forums, there's little time for it during pvp activity (can't fight when typing, lol). Yet the toxicity is a symptom, not a cause. The cause(s) are by design or correctable by design. When people are getting what they want then they complain less, because they're too busy having fun to snipe at each other. There would be no more complaints in pvp than there are in pve if the environments were satisfactory in both, because the complaints are pretty much of the same technical nature in both environments. It's not familiarity that breeds contempt, it is the feelings of being neglected. That's why divorces of any kind happen.

    I suggested years ago that Trion hire someone degreed in human psychology and follow the advice that someone would give. Geeks don't do so well at psychology, as a class that's not their specialty. Good managers seek professional business advice (from banks, customers, professional aids like ad agencies, etc.) when the road gets rocky, they know they don't have all the answers and are not omnipotent. Those are the companies that exist for a long time. They react quickly to the changing market needs, and they continually do so because if they don't then the ever changing market walks. There is a market for pvp, a demonstrably large one, but it's a frustrated market of changing desires and this generation is tired of games that were the best possible on computers that are now over 10 years old. Fools ignore it, but someone will make money at it. And might Kickstart it.
    Last edited by Taptap; 01-15-2014 at 07:12 AM.
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  15. #90
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    What is a "good PvP game"? You'll get so many differing perspectives on balance and objectives that it's just about impossible to create a "good PvP game" that suits a majorities wants.

    If you try to dilute the options in an attempt to satisfy everyone, you tend to satisfy no one.

    Is this an untenable situation? Within the MMO genre, maybe.
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