Grandmaster Apoth. Do you feel the same?

[Bodicca]

I buy the shards from the AH, I make the dyes, and I make decent money at it. I don't think this is particularly broken.

You don't think it's absurd to require 1500 marks to make dye??? Why on earth should dye require THAT?

What's even worse for apothecaries is the crit pots that require shards - they last a whopping 15 seconds. My weaponsmith makes stones for the same amount of marks and they last hours. How does this even make sense?

[ilex011]

And here I thought it was going to be a love letter:

Dear Grandmaster Apoth,

I like you. Do you feel the same? Check one:

[] Yes.

[] No.

Very Sincerely,

Armondpb

ps: I wanted to find you and kiss you under all this mistletoe I collected but as luck would have it, said mistletoe turns me into a dog. Do you like Corgis? Check one...

[the_real_seebs]

You don't think it's absurd to require 1500 marks to make dye???

That would be absurd.

What I don't think is absurd is requiring 100 plat to make dye.

Why on earth should dye require THAT?

To make an economy. Raiders buy a ton of consumables. Also, raiders get ESMs and don't need them for much. In a lot of games, raiders are pretty frequently big customers of RMT companies because they need money for consumables.

So. Make a thing that's easy for raiders to get with currency they don't need for anything else, and tradeable, and used to make things. Especially, used to make things that are made by the people who sell the most stuff to raiders. Raiders get ESMs as a byproduct of their normal activities, get shards because they have no other use for ESMs, sell shards, get plat. Apothecaries buy shards with plat, sell things to raiders. Apothecaries make some money, raiders recoup some of the money they're spending. Economy happens.

What's even worse for apothecaries is the crit pots that require shards - they last a whopping 15 seconds. My weaponsmith makes stones for the same amount of marks and they last hours. How does this even make sense?

What's the market price on those potions?

[-Swag-]

I got a decent purple two-hand sword out of a Greenscale lockbox the other week. Stats are fair--a modest upgrade over the World Gear two-hand sword, which I had been using forever. Then I did the math.

Upgrade 1: 31,200 Empyreal Slayer's Marks
Upgrade 2: 46,800 Empyreal Slayer's Marks

Total: 78,000 Empyreal Slayer's Marks

Time investment for upgrade: 195 days. (dungeon dailies, assuming no token bonuses)

The sword was promptly runebroken.

Trion has issues when it comes to grind vs. reward, and not just in crafting.

[lynspottery]

You don't think it's absurd to require 1500 marks to make dye??? Why on earth should dye require THAT?

What's even worse for apothecaries is the crit pots that require shards - they last a whopping 15 seconds. My weaponsmith makes stones for the same amount of marks and they last hours. How does this even make sense?

I have both an appoth and a runecrafter at level 375. I refuse to make a lot of the crafted gear because of the high cost involved. Particularly when you get better gear from drops in the game.

However, dye is fluff....plain and simple. I do agree the cost for these are much to high. Therefore, unless someone wants one I actually have the recipe for, and can provide the mats, I don't make the super nice ones. Even the plain black is still expensive. But I refuse to make the Exceptional Black. I am not a fashion bug so this does not bother me.

There are so many things in the game that really need to be balanced out so that items that folks really want will be worth the price you pay for them. But paying a king's ransom for a dye is totally out of the ball park.

[Arasaadi]

What gets me is that the original dyes we made, we made at a production output of one. Since the introduction of the new dyes, we create multiples of the same colour with one craft. I find that to be silly.

Either scale them back to match the original dye outputs, or scale the old ones up to match the new ones.

I have never been happy with the implementation of the new dyes, and less than impressed with the introduction of new limited time dyes on the store that have no recipe to make! I was so looking forward to being able to make pumpkin dye.

[the_real_seebs]

The multiple-dye output thing is there for tuning reasons; it's there to let a dye's cost be a fraction-of-a-shard.

I wonder whether people would be happier if the shards were much cheaper (say, 100 ESMs), but some dyes cost one or two, and some cost five, to produce single units of dye.

[Bodicca]

To make an economy. Raiders buy a ton of consumables.

I don't know where you get this stuff Seebs.

Casuals buy consumables. Solo players and puggers buy consumables. Raiders in raiding guilds do not. I have never been in a raiding guild where raiders aren't also crafters. I make consumables for myself and my guildies, and they do the same. That's part of being in a guild.

What's the market price on those potions?

I really have no idea. The cost in mats is ridiculous so I'm sure the cost in plat would be too stupid to even consider buying. I can make them for you for 50p plus mats if you're interested, however.

At any rate, the coruscating ethereal shard can also be bought with credits. And therein lies the reason behind such a ridiculous requirement for crafting just about anything lately.

[the_real_seebs]

I don't know where you get this stuff Seebs.

Casuals buy consumables. Solo players and puggers buy consumables. Raiders in raiding guilds do not. I have never been in a raiding guild where raiders aren't also crafters. I make consumables for myself and my guildies, and they do the same. That's part of being in a guild.

Maybe I am very confused. I have heard many raiders talk about how expensive the consumables and materials they need are. Maybe they are doing it wrong?

I really have no idea. The cost in mats is ridiculous so I'm sure the cost in plat would be too stupid to even consider buying.

The shards are 100p or so. If I can sell 3 potions for >40g each, or 6 for >20g each, I can make money on theose dyes. Which, in fact, I can.

At any rate, the coruscating ethereal shard can also be bought with credits. And therein lies the reason behind such a ridiculous requirement for crafting just about anything lately.

I am not convinced.

I mean, maybe I'm just crazy or something, but I haven't spent credits on those shards, nor felt any need to, and I am making money off recipes which use them. And I don't have a lot of ESMs, either.

[Seere]

I got a decent purple two-hand sword out of a Greenscale lockbox the other week. Stats are fair--a modest upgrade over the World Gear two-hand sword, which I had been using forever. Then I did the math.

Upgrade 1: 31,200 Empyreal Slayer's Marks
Upgrade 2: 46,800 Empyreal Slayer's Marks

Total: 78,000 Empyreal Slayer's Marks

Time investment for upgrade: 195 days. (dungeon dailies, assuming no token bonuses)

The sword was promptly runebroken.

Trion has issues when it comes to grind vs. reward, and not just in crafting.

Or

Upgrade 1: 11,696 credits
Upgrade 2: 17,544 credits

*note: I am a patron, and I do not know if that discount is what I am looking at here, this may be higher for non-patron.

29,240 credits to obtain a T1 RAID weapon.

OR $158 U.S. Dollars at the time of this post, if you were to buy it using two $100 credit purchases.

OR

24 REX purchased in game or from players. So if you were a little unobservant, I suppose it could cost $240 U.S. Dollars...

OR...

(punchline here! )


You could, using platinum in game at the time of this writing, blow about 26,000 platinum, buy the REX from other players, and get a T1 raid weapon.


Without ever stepping into a raid, and all the other great stuff that goes along with that experience.


Submitted for clarity, against the example quoted above.





P.S. anybody remember the 4 weapons placed by the Daglar in the AH a few months back? Didja ever hear what they ended up selling for?

P.S.S. I kinda like this system as is...

P.S.S.S How many days does it take to make 26k plat in game?

[Seere]

Edit Timer exceeded, final note.


Look at the difference in money going to Trion if a player outright buys the credits, or a player buys the REX in game.

Genius!

[Mitchim]

Yes I 100% agree with the OP.

[Galibier]

That would be absurd.

What I don't think is absurd is requiring 100 plat to make dye.



To make an economy. Raiders buy a ton of consumables. Also, raiders get ESMs and don't need them for much. In a lot of games, raiders are pretty frequently big customers of RMT companies because they need money for consumables.

So. Make a thing that's easy for raiders to get with currency they don't need for anything else, and tradeable, and used to make things. Especially, used to make things that are made by the people who sell the most stuff to raiders. Raiders get ESMs as a byproduct of their normal activities, get shards because they have no other use for ESMs, sell shards, get plat. Apothecaries buy shards with plat, sell things to raiders. Apothecaries make some money, raiders recoup some of the money they're spending. Economy happens.



What's the market price on those potions?

Seebs you are projecting other games where crafting takes some time and effort with Rift where it takes ZERO. The other day I was bored and decided to level up survival. It took me about an hour to be maxed. It was the same with Apoth, Weaponsmith and Artificer.

Since crafting takes so little time in this game raiders are a smaller portion of the purchasing market when it comes to crafted consumables.. Now they do make a fair amount of plat because all of their grinding allows them to buy shards...gives them a greater % chance of having one of those needed greatest etc. not to mention the plat you get from raiding and alt platdkp runs...then you add how few real plat sinks are in the game....

but I think your view of crafting in this game is seriously skewed because you are applying a standard that exists in other games and not here.

[Galibier]

Or

Upgrade 1: 11,696 credits
Upgrade 2: 17,544 credits

*note: I am a patron, and I do not know if that discount is what I am looking at here, this may be higher for non-patron.

29,240 credits to obtain a T1 RAID weapon.

OR $158 U.S. Dollars at the time of this post, if you were to buy it using two $100 credit purchases.

OR

24 REX purchased in game or from players. So if you were a little unobservant, I suppose it could cost $240 U.S. Dollars...

OR...

(punchline here! )


You could, using platinum in game at the time of this writing, blow about 26,000 platinum, buy the REX from other players, and get a T1 raid weapon.


Without ever stepping into a raid, and all the other great stuff that goes along with that experience.


Submitted for clarity, against the example quoted above.





P.S. anybody remember the 4 weapons placed by the Daglar in the AH a few months back? Didja ever hear what they ended up selling for?

P.S.S. I kinda like this system as is...

P.S.S.S How many days does it take to make 26k plat in game?

On the P.S.S.S it depends...are you willing to buy Rex and sell it for between 900-1000 plat. Do you grind SH and GH5s so you can sell a greater for between 4-8k per depending on the one you got? How's about that soul of the dead you got from the PUG EE run you don't need? Depending on how you play and your credit card balance it can come really quickly if you do it right.

[Gray]

The multiple-dye output thing is there for tuning reasons; it's there to let a dye's cost be a fraction-of-a-shard.

I wonder whether people would be happier if the shards were much cheaper (say, 100 ESMs), but some dyes cost one or two, and some cost five, to produce single units of dye.

probably, some dyes are more "valuable" (*cough* black for the edgy's), and buy crafting bulk you end up with another hamburger/bun problem.

and a grind looks less bad when you got stepping stones. 1 expert at once feels dull than having to do 3-4 before you can even start.