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Thread: If this is true, why are Trion insistent on using their resources on it.

  1. #76
    Champion of Telara Kantazo's Avatar
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    Sry English is my second language so sometimes I read way too fast LOL.
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  2. #77
    Ascendant Rounded's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Redcruxs View Post
    Its funny, you cut off the next sentence where he said that you should help them, but not hold their hand.

    Its not hard, you look up a spec on the forums, test it out on the dummy untill you know how to do it and ask guildies if you have any questions or want some tips/hints.

    His point is, its not the guilds responsibility to literally teach each player how to allocate every soul point and every ability and teach them exactly what should go on their hotbar and give them the exact macro's and tell them what order to push them in.... that should be done ahead of time.
    I'm going to quote you and also credit Techie Will without quoting:

    We've had guidelines on "If you sign up to a raid, you need to bring consumables and talk to your class leader about specs". We've followed this for over 2 years now and people understand what is needed to make sure that all 20 (or 10) players in the raid are treated equally and given an equal chance.

    We have massive selection of all specs we ask to bring ot raids in our own class forums which are being maintained voluntarily by class leads. We keep tactics posted on our forums for easy access to everyone. We have even coordinated crafting forums for guildie needs + place guild members always first. We spend massive amounts of effort for those who just log in 3 times per week to raid just so everyone, including organizers, get the bosses down.

    I fully support and execute a principle of "Teach the 2nd part of the spec"; players are expected to know what a combo point is and have the ability to setup a spec + understand the basic "how-to-play" which we give out for all specs. After this comes the fine tuning and questions about the spec which I like to answer. Hand-holding is the worst thing you can do to a player, they will not learn anything.

    If getting called "hardcore" means there is organization and coordination in a group of people, then sure I'm hardcore. But I don't really feel like it after being an actual part of a HC raiding guild in wow, current guild is way more casual and laid-back.

    TL;DR: guilds have volunteers pouring in tens of manhours per week to get raids off and recruits don't want to put in 3 to learn the specs.

  3. #78
    Champion of Telara Kantazo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rounded View Post
    I'm going to quote you and also credit Techie Will without quoting:

    We've had guidelines on "If you sign up to a raid, you need to bring consumables and talk to your class leader about specs". We've followed this for over 2 years now and people understand what is needed to make sure that all 20 (or 10) players in the raid are treated equally and given an equal chance.

    We have massive selection of all specs we ask to bring ot raids in our own class forums which are being maintained voluntarily by class leads. We keep tactics posted on our forums for easy access to everyone. We have even coordinated crafting forums for guildie needs + place guild members always first. We spend massive amounts of effort for those who just log in 3 times per week to raid just so everyone, including organizers, get the bosses down.

    I fully support and execute a principle of "Teach the 2nd part of the spec"; players are expected to know what a combo point is and have the ability to setup a spec + understand the basic "how-to-play" which we give out for all specs. After this comes the fine tuning and questions about the spec which I like to answer. Hand-holding is the worst thing you can do to a player, they will not learn anything.

    If getting called "hardcore" means there is organization and coordination in a group of people, then sure I'm hardcore. But I don't really feel like it after being an actual part of a HC raiding guild in wow, current guild is way more casual and laid-back.

    TL;DR: guilds have volunteers pouring in tens of manhours per week to get raids off and recruits don't want to put in 3 to learn the specs.
    Awesome post, I apologize for calling people hardcore. I read too fast and didn't realize that I was on the wrong side. But sadly this forum is too fast in removing the ability to edit posts.
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  4. #79
    Prophet of Telara Seranov's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kantazo View Post
    Awesome post, I apologize for calling people hardcore. I read too fast and didn't realize that I was on the wrong side. But sadly this forum is too fast in removing the ability to edit posts.
    Don't apologize for calling people hardcore. It's not a pejorative at all. It just means someone is focused and prepared for high-end content, and is willing to devote a lot of their time to make sure stuff gets done.

    What you SHOULD be apologizing for is implying that it's somehow a bad thing. People who play games like this in the hardcore manner are generally very driven (at least in-game), skilled players who often give back quite a bit to the community (at least the ones who aren't jerks, but that's a completely separate personality quirk).
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  5. #80
    Champion of Telara Kantazo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seranov View Post
    Don't apologize for calling people hardcore. It's not a pejorative at all. It just means someone is focused and prepared for high-end content, and is willing to devote a lot of their time to make sure stuff gets done.

    What you SHOULD be apologizing for is implying that it's somehow a bad thing. People who play games like this in the hardcore manner are generally very driven (at least in-game), skilled players who often give back quite a bit to the community (at least the ones who aren't jerks, but that's a completely separate personality quirk).
    I dint mean it as a bad thing, just as an elite kind of thing, but not everyone plays the game the same way. I play for fun and my fun means get to 60 through a long path of playing here and there, exploring all the spots, find cairns, figuring puzzles and when I get to 60 I may, MAY do some raiding, but with every new patch new changes are made and what was good for this raid is trash for tomorrow's raid. So I don't see too much the use of gearing up for raids.
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  6. #81
    Telaran discosoc's Avatar
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    There's very little 'hardcore" raid scene in any MMO right now. Blizzard killed theirs with the raid finder thing, so most people just sort of run that when they feel like it and call it good. There are still a handful of raid guilds around, on a few specific servers, but the culture has very much changed.

    I personally don't care for raiding, but I think it's kind of interesting (even quaint) that Trion is keeping that torch lit, seemingly in defiance of the entire industry.

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    Deleted cause I wanted to.
    Last edited by Chaszar; 09-23-2013 at 11:54 PM.

  8. #83
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    Im not against raiding I love raiding.

    Im not against progression raids, but a line needs to be drawn somewhere so that people who wish to raid feel it is accessible to them.

    2 or 3 weeks doing 2 or 3 hours progression a night once or twice a week on a boss for an average player is fine and enough of a carrot to make it still fun and give a sense of elation when it is killed.

    8 months banging your head against a wall mixed in with a horrendous grind and real money for gear/essences to try and down a boss is a game breaker for most but the hardcores. Far too many people will not even bother attempting these new raids in their current state.

    People inherantly know when they are "average". If a hardcore player turns round and says how hard these new raids are, how a closely nit group of raiders who live for this game struggle to down a boss then, mr average joe, who screws his rotations, stands in aoe, zones out and misses emotes isnt even going to attempt this content and sees it as "not for him".

    I dont get why trion would spend all this time making awsome looking areas for the community for only a small group of people to experience.

    Realistically how many players have never set foot in ID, never downed akylios, will never see regulos or crucia or set a foot into GA.A total waste of some amazingly fun areas that could provide hours of fun for the community not just the 1%. Its just backwards to keep hammering this ultra hard raid style that Trion seem to have jumped onto when all other games are moving away from this model.

    And while we are at it:

    Whatever happened to Trions stated move in raids toward personal responsibilty and away from one shot mechanics that if screwed by 1 person would wipe the entire raid -- Most higher end SL bosses rely on single person raid wiping mechanics.

    and

    Why do HK and ID still have raid number requirements to enter?? HK can be done as 5 or 6 and ID as 8-10 people.. Remove these locks on numbers required to enter please so people that never saw them can experience the fun in there! Please pretty please do this TRion

  9. #84
    Ascendant simpa1988's Avatar
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    dont know why u say EU has not guilds raiding. Everytime i log in i see ads from guilds that have cleared all T1 content and going for T2. And these guilds not only from Zaviel but also from Gelidra and Blightweald....
    Maybe EU guild arent hardcore as the NA guilds but that doesnt mean that the raiding in EU is none existance.

  10. #85
    Rift Chaser Soarfuri's Avatar
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    Seems there is huge difference between NA and EU servers then....

    The EU certainly is struggling for players and now even the so called *big* raiding guilds are spamming adverts for players. My guild has been unable to put a 20 man together since 2.4 hit - we were raiding 4 days a week and now we're lucky if we have 10 ppl online at the same time. Which is sad...

    I left Rift about 18 months ago because of this same problem and I've been back 3 months and here we go again.

  11. #86
    Prophet of Telara Seranov's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Esox View Post
    2 or 3 weeks doing 2 or 3 hours progression a night once or twice a week on a boss for an average player is fine and enough of a carrot to make it still fun and give a sense of elation when it is killed.

    8 months banging your head against a wall mixed in with a horrendous grind and real money for gear/essences to try and down a boss is a game breaker for most but the hardcores. Far too many people will not even bother attempting these new raids in their current state.
    I only started playing right before F2P. I have max Torvan and Lycini rep, have two full epic sigils, am Revered with the Achyati/Empyreal Alliance/Hailol and generally have earned everything that is supposedly a grind in this game, save killing all the bosses in raids.

    8 months is a laughable overstatement. I've been raiding since a month after I started, and at no point have I felt content was unreachable for me. You have to actually try to get ready for raids, but once you've done that, the only thing stopping you from experiencing it IS YOU.
    Seranii@Greybriar - 60 Eth Warrior
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  12. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by Esox View Post
    Reading through


    http://forums.riftgame.com/game-disc...nity-gate.html

    and not to take anything away from a kill by people.

    If the whole lack of Hardcore raiding guilds in Rift is correct, which is a major theme running through the thread does anyone else not think it is a shame that Trion seem intent on creating content for this tiny subsection?
    It depends on what you mean by "intent on creating content." I don't know how long you've been playing this game, but it's a common theme for TRION to release 20-man raids once every 9 months or so. Patches in between that 9-ish month span usually pertain to more "casual" upgrades to the game such as dimensions, new zones, new dungeons, chronicles, etc. This type of content is hashed out much faster than 20-man raids.

    Quote Originally Posted by Esox View Post
    Followed by many comments about how most guilds will NEVER be able to do this new content due to its hardness.

    Seems to make total sense for me creating content for the "raiding pool of 100 people or less"
    Releasing raiding content that is hard at first is what a small subsection of the game wants, but inevitably it will be nerfed so all other raiding guilds will be able to down the content. Sure, those types of guilds won't be able to get right in on day one but they will eventually see it and eventually down it before the next tier of raids come out. In the end, the hardcore guilds raid many hours and days to kill it first and the casual guilds go at their own pace and kill it not-first. Everyone goes home happy.

    What you're seeming to forget is that the majority of guilds in RIFT have some sort of raiding aspect to them regardless of whether or not they are hardcore or casual. Raiding content is what a large population of players want, not just the hardcore players. It's just the majority of the players won't be able to see the content until it's nerfed, but that's okay, it's just how the cookie crumbles.

    Also, on a side note, when 20-man raids are released there are typically other things that are released with them. For example, with 2.4, we got a new dungeon, chronicle, crafting recipes, new hair styles, etc. Casual players that don't raid never miss out on new content every patch, but the hardcore players more or less do.

  13. #88
    Ascendant meph1111's Avatar
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    lol @ guilds who raid and do progression on a set schedule are "casual guilds"

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    There many not be as many cutting edge raiders, but that's always a very tiny section of the community. Even WoW in it's heyday didn't have very many people actually trying for world first achievements.

    That doesn't mean there aren't many people raiding. I see pug raids all the time. I see guilds advertising all the time. Even my guild raids, and we're about the most casual bunch you'll find.

    Hardly anyone pvps, and the game isn't balanced for it. Tons of people raid, and so the devs release more raiding content. It's pretty easy to tone things down after they're released, so they can still devote a tiny bit of time to giving the remaining hardcore raiders a bone.

  15. #90
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    Also, don't forget GW2 was released with no end game content or raiding in mind, and after massive uproar from the player base about how there is nothing to do after you hit 80, are now adding in traditional raids. Out of over 3 million copies sold, I would say maybe 1/5th of that population remains only a year after release. Main cities are devoid of non NPC life, and Lion's Arch hasn't had an overflow in 6 months.

    Basically, the small subset isn't so small as some people think. World First kills will always have a small pool of people viably trying to achieve them.

    Raiding in general is the best way to keep population remotely stable, because it gives people a reason to be online. Is it the best way? Heck I don't know, I don't raid anymore.

    But I can tell you, the games I have played that eschewed raids have all flopped and are doing a complete 180 to add raids into the game as quick as possible.
    Last edited by Aeonblade; 09-24-2013 at 12:11 PM.
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