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  Click here to go to the first Rift Team post in this thread.   Thread: Are Multiboxers unwanted in Rift? Should we pack up and get out?

  1. #616
    Rift Master Haceldama's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by the_real_seebs View Post
    But you can call people "morons" and lump all the people together, including the many who were advocating for finding ways to make things better, and who pointed out to you that it would be less of a problem at 60 -- which you admitted turned out to be the case. And you can be actively mean to people who were never mean to you.

    Yeah, that's a great thing, you should be really happy about it. No cause for concern there. Maybe even go for a little more smugness and derision? Wouldn't want to let other people get the jump on you in continuing the escalation. LoL's community can't hold that title forever.
    I will be sorry to see you leave. Your posts are generally much more positive than negative. I will miss the occasional love note when I stated something you disagreed with but did so in a respectful (i hope) manner (Seebs will send you in game emails to clarify a point or two - note to the Seeb haters that the emails were always respectful and well reasoned so I had no complaints).

    That said, I am still glad Trion disabled /follow. We find ourselves in opposite camps. I posted my reasons pages and pages ago. I only reiterate that to combat (somewhat) the massive walls of texts and arguments given by the the hand full of boxers trying to undo what is done.

    Also note that I was persuaded that adding a separate queue for premades and boxers might be a better more inclusive remedy. I, however, lack the expertise to state with any degree of certainty whether this is practical (cost effective).

    Best wishes in the future from the Dark Side!!!

    Haceldama
    Last edited by Haceldama; 08-12-2013 at 02:42 PM.

  2. #617
    Sword of Telara Sindala's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by the_real_seebs View Post

    Yeah, that's a great thing, you should be really happy about it. No cause for concern there. Maybe even go for a little more smugness and derision? Wouldn't want to let other people get the jump on you in continuing the escalation. LoL's community can't hold that title forever.
    Smugness??? hmm would that be me saying a thread I started actually changed the game where none of your ever did? yeah I think that would be classed as smug.

    Although boxing is easier to deal with after level 50, no I never said I like boxers or what they do but it's clear to everyone now the way they are still moaning about it. The only thing they used it for was griefing. We removed the /follow command NOT boxing so if they can't keylog around it then they were NEVER boxers anyway, just opportunistic griefers.

  3. #618
    Ascendant the_real_seebs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sindala View Post
    Smugness??? hmm would that be me saying a thread I started actually changed the game where none of your ever did? yeah I think that would be classed as smug.
    A+ for effort. Very derisive, very mocking. You really manage to encapsulate the changes Trion's looking for in their community.

    Although boxing is easier to deal with after level 50, no I never said I like boxers or what they do but it's clear to everyone now the way they are still moaning about it. The only thing they used it for was griefing.
    To borrow a quote from Wolfgang Pauli: This isn't right. This isn't even wrong. The substance of the complaints makes it abundantly clear that many of the multiboxers actively want to prevent griefing. Or indeed, don't even care about PvP, except that the Conquest power mechanics have significant influence on PvE effectiveness.

    We removed the /follow command NOT boxing so if they can't keylog around it then they were NEVER boxers anyway, just opportunistic griefers.
    This is dishonest at so many levels. You've used the word "keylog" which has nothing to do with anything anyone has ever actually associated multiboxers with. Keylogging is malware to steal passwords. It has nothing to do with anything we're talking about... But it serves your pattern of systematically using the wrong words for things to try to create associations between people you don't like and things other people disapprove of, like malware. The "griefers" line is a purely unrelated assertion... And of course, the entire reason that people advocated banning /follow in WFs is that doing so would make it impossible for multiboxers to contribute to a team at all.

    Which is to say, this is a genuine lie. It's not a thing you might just be wrong about; it's a thing which contradicts your entire position on the issue. You started out making it totally clear that you are aware that non-botters must use /follow to run multiple characters, and that banning /follow in WFs would remove multiboxers from WFs. But that doesn't matter; the point is that you can try to tie multiboxing to malware, and call people names.

    I know the dark side is sorta fun. It's pretty enthralling and all that. But... I gotta say, I would sort of recommend not going there. You can be better than that. Maybe you don't particularly want to, but I will warn you right now: It doesn't stop. You can't just let that run for a few people you think really "deserve" that kind of malice. Once you're willing to lie just to hurt people, and hurt people just for fun, it doesn't matter that right now you think you've got it limited to the people who need to be hurt. Because you'll keep finding more people who need to be hurt. You'll keep finding more people whose fault it is that you aren't having as much fun as you're entitled to. You'll keep finding more circumstances where you're totally justified in going just a little further than you used to. And there will come a day when the people you need to hurt to feel good are people you used to care about.

    I dunno if there is such a thing as a point of no return for that, but I do know that once you are far enough in that you simply don't care whether things are true, only whether they hurt people, it is hard to make it back. But it may be worth it. I know our culture in general does not exactly praise caring about things, or people. I know that MMO culture in particular is pretty overtly hostile to the notion. But I still think there may be something to it. Your call, ultimately; it's your life, you get to live it however you want.
    You can play WoW in any MMO. You don't have to play WoW in RIFT. Oh, and no, RIFT is not a WoW clone. Not having fun any more? Learn to play, noob! I don't speak for Riftui, but I moderate stuff there. Just came back? Welcome back! Here's what's changed. (Updated for 2.5!)

  4. #619
    Ascendant Laughingstock's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by the_real_seebs View Post
    A+ for effort. Very derisive, very mocking. You really manage to encapsulate the changes Trion's looking for in their community.
    No offense, but even if what you say was true (which it isn't), Sindala is 'hardly new'.

    You and others keep blaming "new people" and a "new attitude" vs the way it used to be.

    You just scuttled your whole case right down to the bottom by pointing out someone who's been here since near launch and pre-F2P.

    Also, your whole post to him is dripping with contempt and patronage. You don't realize that?
    Last edited by Laughingstock; 08-12-2013 at 03:23 PM.

  5. #620
    Sword of Telara Sindala's Avatar
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    Tomato, tomato.
    Some call it key-cloning but I still call it key-loging as you have to press the 'key' first for it to 'log' the response and be cloned by the program.

  6. #621
    Ascendant the_real_seebs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sindala View Post
    Some call it key-cloning but I still call it key-loging as you have to press the 'key' first for it to 'log' the response and be cloned by the program.
    You are not going to convince me that you are the one MMO player around who posts on forums and has done so for months or years, and doesn't know what a keylogger is. You've repeatedly carefully picked malapropisms which just happen to let you associate multiboxing with malware and abuse, and you're way too good a writer otherwise to be doing it by accident.

    You wanna be malicious, go right ahead. Dishonest? Fine by me. No skin off my nose. But when you ramp it up and then pretend you're not doing it that's... Just not classy, really. But then, that's sort of the whole point, isn't it?
    You can play WoW in any MMO. You don't have to play WoW in RIFT. Oh, and no, RIFT is not a WoW clone. Not having fun any more? Learn to play, noob! I don't speak for Riftui, but I moderate stuff there. Just came back? Welcome back! Here's what's changed. (Updated for 2.5!)

  7. #622
    General of Telara Aerelith's Avatar
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    Gentlemen,

    I think I need to step in here and mention that things have gotten a little too personal between you. How about you both take a quick breather?

  8. #623
    Sword of Telara Sindala's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by the_real_seebs View Post
    You are not going to convince me that you are the one MMO player around who posts on forums and has done so for months or years, and doesn't know what a keylogger is. You've repeatedly carefully picked malapropisms which just happen to let you associate multiboxing with malware and abuse, and you're way too good a writer otherwise to be doing it by accident.

    You wanna be malicious, go right ahead. Dishonest? Fine by me. No skin off my nose. But when you ramp it up and then pretend you're not doing it that's... Just not classy, really. But then, that's sort of the whole point, isn't it?
    Lol, hey it's 1am here and I've been up 27 hours straight. You want to start nit-picking my posts, go for it.

    We both know I won. pure and simple.

  9. #624
    RIFT Guide Writer Redcruxs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aerelith View Post
    Gentlemen,

    I think I need to step in here and mention that things have gotten a little too personal between you. How about you both take a quick breather?
    I already tried that, it didn't work.

  10. #625
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sindala View Post
    Lol, hey it's 1am here and I've been up 27 hours straight. You want to start nit-picking my posts, go for it.

    We both know I won. pure and simple.
    Dang I didn't know we are trying to win stuff. My wife says I would argue with a wall. So what are we all arguing about?
    Hope everyone is having a good evening!

  11. #626
    Sword of Telara Sindala's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ramvol View Post
    Dang I didn't know we are trying to win stuff. My wife says I would argue with a wall. So what are we all arguing about?
    Hope everyone is having a good evening!
    Just 'certain people' trying to have the last word even thou he's quit the game and left......apparently
    Last edited by Sindala; 08-12-2013 at 04:02 PM.

  12. #627
    Plane Touched Veramir's Avatar
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    Going to the nerd side, the large posts given by our ambassador remind me of the way the LoTR treants liked to communicate, many words for a small message.

    Not to mention the fastidious disassembling of people's comments that go against his ideas.

    Which brings me to my main point, this thread has gone from looking into a compromise that would stop the disruptive presence that people (who are not multiboxers) feel from multiboxers and multiboxers who feel entitled according to misinterpreted words given by Trion.

    Please, if you are to continue your old wives bickering and have nothing positive, remove yourselves from posting.

    The arrogance of some of you people, arguing for the sake of arguing, it's almost fanatic the way you cling to your point of view without giving a second thought to others. At least have the decency of acknowledging people.

  13. #628
    Plane Touched
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    Thought you were leaving seebs? too addicted i see.

    The way you responded to /follow removal makes me think of little kids who dont get what they want.
    Threw and broke all your toys(gave away all your stuff) yell and scream(the overly long forum posts that generally ended in rambling and repitition, mainly to prove you can"argue better")and threaten to leave home (the i'm leaving trion hates me post.

    You lost all my respect with your comments in the 70 million page thread when you stated things such as this:

    " Seriously, is it that hard to drop all the hyperbole, all the obviously-false claims, and just*engage in a discussion? Is it really the case that there is not a single person who wants at least some restrictions on multiboxing, and is capable of arguing for this in a way that could conceivably lead to other people becoming persuaded?

    Seriously, I could make your case better than any of you do, and I don't even think it's a remotely good case. But I could still do a better job of it because I am actually willing to consider other people's points of view and positions, and I know what it looks like when factual claims are linked together through logic to a conclusion."

    " You are welcome to, at any time, stop trying to sleaze your way past people's defenses and come up with a real argument. If I get bored enough, I'll probably swap accounts and post an example of an actual argument against allowing multiboxing just so people will have seen one and know what it would look like."

    " Heya! I can respect that. I wouldn't want to multibox in PvP, because I think it would hurt my team. I am okay with multiboxing PvE, even with random other players, but I don't queue for dungeons unless I am sure I can handle them competently. And that tends to mean "outlevel them a little", because otherwise there's no way I can perform as well as two separate players."

    There is another post where you state you are only arguing in the thread for arguments sake and to teach people how to argue though u dont care if people box in pvp.

    So why are you better than anyone else?
    Why are you allowed to speculate and nobody else?
    You obviously invest way to much personal time into the forums, from what i can tell you barely play the game.

    Step back, go out and find something constructive to put your debating skills to good use. Not a bloody video game that wont mean **** a decade later.

    Regarding the subject at hand;
    I will state this in a format everyone can relate to,

    Multiboxers are not wanted in a house with a mouse
    and a fox on a box,
    on a lode with a toad
    or a cat and a bat with a flap in his hat.
    they are not wanted here nor there,
    they are not wanted anywhere.

    -whackinseuss

  14. #629
    Ascendant the_real_seebs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whackinstick View Post
    Thought you were leaving seebs?
    Well, leaving the game, and ceasing to debate the multiboxing issue, yes. The social issue, I think, had some potential for interesting discussion, but it's mostly been covered at this point.

    too addicted i see.
    Haven't played Rift since last Thursday or so, except for the Great Giveaway, which was six hours of hanging out by mailboxes and waiting out the "You have sent too many messages recently" message. Probably gonna log in tonight to gift the rest of my credits away, then go cancel the subs. I'd been planning to give it a couple more days, because Trion's track record has been so good in the past, but I think it's pretty clear here that this is in the category of "thinking about the community as being an aspect of the game" where Trion's otherwise excellent handling of issues tends to fall down badly. So far, I'm not sure I've seen anything from most of the participants in these discussions suggesting that the majority of the player base can even comprehend a distinction between being unhappy about a policy change, and unhappy about the way the communications about it were handled.

    I have heard about the thing where people can't quit a game, but I've never had that problem. My problem is the other way; it's really hard for me to come back to a game if I get burned out on it. Caring about stuff is a lot harder for me than not caring is. I can do it for a fair while on momentum, but not forever. I've been sorta sticking it out to see whether there was anything that could be done, but as I sort of anticipated, this was too much about personal malice and not enough about the issue in the first place, and Trion's failure to distinguish between the valid reasons for the change and the festering malice in the forums has exacerbated that.

    Since early 2011, the one glaring hole in Trion's otherwise exceptional management of Rift has been a general disinterest in the tone of their community, both in-game and out of game. It's a shame, but it's not as though you get into an MMO thinking it'll last forever.
    You can play WoW in any MMO. You don't have to play WoW in RIFT. Oh, and no, RIFT is not a WoW clone. Not having fun any more? Learn to play, noob! I don't speak for Riftui, but I moderate stuff there. Just came back? Welcome back! Here's what's changed. (Updated for 2.5!)

  15.   This is the last Rift Team post in this thread.   #630
    Community Manager Elrar's Avatar
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    Hey guys,

    I think this thread has gone around and back again a few times at this point.

    The reality is this:

    We value all of our players who play the game without the intent to abuse others or our systems (both in & out of game) - but we also have to ensure that players feel they can enjoy all aspects of the game as well. Sometimes we have to make tough choices, but they are never made lightly.

    Some facts:

    Certain mechanization software/hardware being manned by an individual player to simultaneously play multiple clients across multiple machines (AKA multiboxing) is permitted.

    Complete automation of gameplay inputs achieved by software/hardware manipulation (manned or unmanned) and beyond the capabilities of a human operator is prohibited.

    What's the difference? One requires 1:1 input, the other creates its own inputs defined by parameters & generally does not require direct interaction from an individual.

    Can they overlap? To some extent - but the main distinction is that all actions in traditional multiboxing are originating and are controlled by a single individual through manual input which does not attempt to "trick" or bypass the game client itself. Crossing that line is where you breach our Terms of Service.

    I understand the distinction can be difficult to make & that you may disagree with what we feel is permissible. However, we do ask that - in order for these discussions to continue - you take the above into account when discussing how these actions affect RIFT.

    We have a great community here in RIFT, one that I have seen reconcile its differences countless times & learn to have fun without getting bogged down in petty disputes.

    It's easy to get lost in the argument of semantics or to be frustrated when in-game behavior spoils your entertainment - but if we're to have a sensible & constructive discourse we need the back-and-forth bickering to come to an end.

    Namecalling, shaming, mis-associating, and otherwise attempting to devalue the opinion of another is never tolerated - and not only that - is the absolute worst way to get your point across and demonstrate to us that we should place more value in the feedback you give. (Regardless of which side you're arguing for/against.)

    We're never all going to agree on everything - here or anywhere with a large enough sample of society - I think that's good overall, but keeping this in mind: It's important to be able to say your thoughts, agree to disagree, and move on.

    I appreciate you keeping this in consideration for future discussions and, from all of this, develop additional respect for the opinions of others & the proper way to discuss those differences or accept them as they are.

    All that said, I think this thread - and this entire topic for that matter - has run its course. Feel free to continue to provide feedback in the other thread on how the recent change has affected you, otherwise please consider moving on from this topic. We will be much less tolerant of prolonged debate on multiboxing unless it succeeds at remaining civil. constructive, & exploratory in nature.

    Thanks for your understanding,

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