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Thread: RE: Raid Gear

  1. #1
    Telaran
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    Default RE: Raid Gear

    Since the thread regarding raid gear and how to acquire relics devolved into a lot of bashing and got closed... I do think a nice discussion would be good. Try to keep it civil of course!

    I was about to post the below in the thread but by the time I got done writting up my wall of text it was closed.

    I kind of understand the OP's point, he's just going about describing it poorly and so caused a fight between 'casuals' and 'raiders.' It's basically turned into a topic about class warfare and that's not cool.

    I personally have always had a bit of an issue with the concept that raid gear is the defacto best PvE gear. And my issue with it is that for some people, the content isn't hard to do. In fact in some instances it can be easier than group content (this is not to say that all raid content is easy, please don't polarize my statements and read the whole post before showering me in flames!).

    For your core raiders it's going to be work, yes. But what about the new guy you're bring up through the content to get geared to the point they can do what you're now progressing on? For them, they're getting pretty easy upgrades. They didn't have to learn the strategy, they don't have to contribute as much to the encounter because everyone already has a tier of upgrades beyond what you're doing so that they can join the top level stuff.

    Now, RIFT may not have that problem currently, where it seems that going from Experts to end-tier is only a jump (maybe two). But in past games I've played, raiding has been a major gear treadmill and you have to do each level to be able to compete in the next.

    The issue comes though when even the mid-ranked raid gear is better in every way than the group/overland/solo content gear you get.

    My issue with this is that the gear you get for raiding is applicable to content that comes out for non-raiding. It makes a noticable difference in how you handle the game (and in the worst case scenarios, can cause the balancing of a game to get skewed in favour of a top-heavy player base with a majority of raiders, damaging balance and content for new players who don't raid. This has happened in other games!).

    My suggestion for the whole concept of raid vs group vs solo gear was the concept of side-grades, or tier specific stats. Boosts that were applicable to the environment that you were going in to and gaining the gear for.

    Hit/Toughness is an example in Rift. EQ2 had a similar mechanic as well (though they also did the same core stat upgrade that Rift does making raid gear point per point better than equivilent level group gear).

    But why stop at just Hit/Toughness? Why not have bonuses that let you do more? Or do something different? Unique procs for example, or situational boosts to skills.

    The core stats themselves would be similar across all play styles at max level, but you'd get other things that would be required to tune different kinds of content.

    Additionally, why should raid content require higher stats than group content? Or even locked solo (that is, forced to complete with one player)? You're already bringing more people to the event, so your overall numbers will be higher. And mobs can use debuffs or mechanics to challenge those numbers of people.

    I know this is totally contrary to the design decisions of most MMOs and I suspect it wouldn't actually be done because well... It's hard. It would be much harder to fine tune each of those advancing encounters, to fine tune each of those new sets of equipment to be needed and unique while not invalidating non-raid content.

    And that's the thing. Raid gear invalidates non-raid content. If you end up in a group with someone who has raid gear you can see this immediately. And yes, someone said "But they're helping you" and in a way they are, sure. But in a way they're not as well. They're now acting as your crutch. They won't help you get better because they're carrying you.

    Personally, I like to learn and grow in a game at my pace. I don't want a piece of content trivialized because a player with end-game equipment decides to come and 'help.' While I do appreciate the thought, it kills the challenge and with the loss of challenge goes the fun.

    It's also why I don't look up strats for mobs before I try them at least once without them. I like learning, picking up things and growing. I don't want to be hand-held, and I don't want to be walked through.

    So anywho, that's my wall of text. Will something like this ever apply to Rift? No, absolutely not. The game isn't built that way. But it would be nice to have other means of acquiring top-end gear (means that are hard and quire class knowledge, mechanics excellence, and time) besides having to do the specific task of raiding.
    What do you all think? Should there be alternative paths to "top class" gear? What do you think "top class" gear should look like?

    And again, please keep it constructive and friendly!

  2. #2
    Sword of Telara Finder's Avatar
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    It's pretty much impossible for raider vs. non-raider threads to end well. I'll just say "yes" there should be alternate paths to equal gear.

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  3. #3
    RIFT Guide Writer RoughRaptors's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Finder View Post
    I'll just say "yes" there should be alternate paths to equal gear.
    Nooooooope
    Last edited by RoughRaptors; 06-26-2013 at 12:59 PM.

  4. #4
    Plane Touched
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    If you aren't raiding, you don't need raid level gear. Would you like them to make super special fun time SOLO content that is hard? It won't happen because the average player would cry about it being hard so it would be nerfed into the ground along with the gear for it.

  5. #5
    Telaran
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    Quote Originally Posted by Finder View Post
    It's pretty much impossible for raider vs. non-raider threads to end well. I'll just say "yes" there should be alternate paths to equal gear.
    Can you provide a suggestion though or discuss? And let's leave out the class warfare on this one.

    Quote Originally Posted by RoughRaptors View Post
    Nooooooope
    Again I please ask that everyone be civil in this. I don't want the thread closed because people start lobbing fireballs. You obviously disagree with the idea, can you explain your stance? Or offer suggestions on how things can improve?

    We want discussion!

  6. #6
    General of Telara Asaomar's Avatar
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    I'm going to vote no. For the same reason that you wouldn't put more ways to get top end equivalent pvp gear in. You have to pvp to get the best pvp gear, you have to dungeon to get the best dungeon gear, you have to do world content to get the best world vendor gear, why should there be another way besides raiding to get gear with stats equivalent to raid gear?

    You can already do dungeons, the weekly raid bosses(which are a joke when you throw seven raids of random pugged players at them), and pug TDQ for raid tier marks every day/week, so even though it'll take longer, you can still get raid gear without ever setting foot in the 20mans.
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  7. #7
    Ascendant Landru's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Finder View Post
    It's pretty much impossible for raider vs. non-raider threads to end well. I'll just say "yes" there should be alternate paths to equal gear.
    If you are not raiding then...while it would be cool for uniquely skinned gear that was below raid but still high-end was available for people doing other things in the game...you don't need the raid gear stats unless you simply like being so over-geared for any other PvE content that you simply nuke it and move on.

    I would love to see some path for non-raid sets that have their own flavor but not the stats that would completely overpower non-raid content...but I don't raid so I don't deserve raid gear. Nor do I need it.

    tl;dr version "No, I don't agree"
    I know that you believe you understand what you think I said, but I'm not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant

  8. #8
    Telaran
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    Quote Originally Posted by Furyion View Post
    Would you like them to make super special fun time SOLO content that is hard?
    Actually I would! I would love that sort of stuff. Or Chronicles that are actually challenging. Or even tiered group content that requires a lot of strategy, mechanics knowledge, situational awareness. I adore hard content. But there's a difference between legit challenge and grinding (which is what a lot of 'high tier' group/solo stuff devolves into sadly. My first MMO experience was Vanguard and it went the "infinity grinds" route for progression for a long time).

    It won't happen because the average player would cry about it being hard so it would be nerfed into the ground along with the gear for it.
    And this is probably the most true, but most saddening reason why we'll never have "good" solo/group tier equipment and why raid will always be the best. Because people seem to equate "small number of people" with inherently easier.

  9. #9
    Plane Touched Warhaul's Avatar
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    Alternate gear for different purposes would be better.
    Like how PvP gear isn't useful in PvE and vice versa.
    It's tricky though, I wouldn't know where to start to implement gear like this.
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  10. #10
    Sword of Telara Finder's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fara View Post
    Can you provide a suggestion though or discuss? And let's leave out the class warfare on this one.



    Again I please ask that everyone be civil in this. I don't want the thread closed because people start lobbing fireballs. You obviously disagree with the idea, can you explain your stance? Or offer suggestions on how things can improve?

    We want discussion!
    It's hard to discuss when one side unilaterally says "no" to anything that doesn't keep them on top.


    honestly, I've always wondered how an MMO would do that actually catered to soloists at end game. I mean really catered to them. I think such a game would be far more successful than most marketing departments think.

    Because lets be honest, most of these decisions are marketing decisions designed to do two things with one goal.

    1) Force anything worthwhile to take forever with an obscene amount of grinding. Keeps you playing and paying longer.

    2) Try to force you to form social bonds with your fellow players because "I don't want to stop playing, I'd miss my guild friends".
    Last edited by Finder; 06-26-2013 at 01:09 PM.

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  11. #11
    Telaran
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    Raid gear should always be the best gear available in a MMO.

    I do heroic raiding in WoW for gear that allows me to solo old level 80 and 85 raids and heroic dungeons. I do lots of mount and transmog farming.

  12. #12
    Plane Walker Lyria's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Finder View Post
    It's pretty much impossible for raider vs. non-raider threads to end well.
    Quote Originally Posted by Furyion View Post
    If you aren't raiding, you don't need raid level gear. Would you like them to make super special fun time SOLO content that is hard? It won't happen because the average player would cry about it being hard so it would be nerfed into the ground along with the gear for it.
    And this is WHY "raider vs non-raider" threads never end well.

  13. #13
    Telaran
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    Quote Originally Posted by Asaomar View Post
    I'm going to vote no. For the same reason that you wouldn't put more ways to get top end equivalent pvp gear in. You have to pvp to get the best pvp gear, you have to dungeon to get the best dungeon gear, you have to do world content to get the best world vendor gear, why should there be another way besides raiding to get gear with stats equivalent to raid gear?

    You can already do dungeons, the weekly raid bosses(which are a joke when you throw seven raids of random pugged players at them), and pug TDQ for raid tier marks every day/week, so even though it'll take longer, you can still get raid gear without ever setting foot in the 20mans.
    Yeah, there is that. Though it does begin to delve into the "infinity grind" territory instead of actually taking skill. I talk about that a little bit in one of my other quote replies above.

    Quote Originally Posted by Landru View Post
    If you are not raiding then...while it would be cool for uniquely skinned gear that was below raid but still high-end was available for people doing other things in the game...you don't need the raid gear stats unless you simply like being so over-geared for any other PvE content that you simply nuke it and move on.

    I would love to see some path for non-raid sets that have their own flavor but not the stats that would completely overpower non-raid content...but I don't raid so I don't deserve raid gear. Nor do I need it.

    tl;dr version "No, I don't agree"
    Skins are definitely another thing, though often I've found that a lot of raid gear ends up... Looking silly. But then I find a lot of fantasy equipment borderlining on silly most the times anyway.


    I appreciate your input, guys! And while that touches some of the points, what about the points about why the core stat boosts being necessary? Why does a raid require a noticeable boost to core power per person when you're already bringing in extra people? Could encounters be tuned based around large numbers of dungeon geared people and still continue to be relevant?

    Quote Originally Posted by Warhaul View Post
    Alternate gear for different purposes would be better.
    Like how PvP gear isn't useful in PvE and vice versa.
    It's tricky though, I wouldn't know where to start to implement gear like this.
    It is tricky! And I think that's why gear has been this way since EQ. It's a much easier way to itemize and design encounters around. And I don't fault developers for that one bit.

    I don't get too much into the topic of PvP because well... I've always found that PvP in MMOs is fundamentally flawed while you're trying to keep PvE balance but that's a subject for another thread!

  14. #14
    RIFT Guide Writer RoughRaptors's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Finder View Post
    honestly, I've always wondered how an MMO would do that actually catered to soloists at end game.
    Why would any MMO cater to "soloists"? They are less of the playerbase than raiders. Why would you play an MMO to play it by yourself? That's just plain silly.

  15. #15
    Ascendant Landru's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Finder View Post
    It's hard to discuss when one side unilaterally says "no" to enything that doesn't keep them on top.


    honestly, I've always wondered how an MMO would do that actually catered to soloists at end game. I mean really catered to them. I think such a game would be far more successful than most marketing departments think.

    Because lets be honest, most of these decisions are marketing decisions designed to do two things with one goal.

    1) Force anything worthwhile to take forever with an obscene amount of grinding. Keeps you playing and paying longer.

    2) Try to force you to form social bonds with your fellow players because "I don't want to stop playing, I'd miss my guild friends".
    Well...

    Here's the thing; if and when solo/small group content is made that is as demonstrably hard (I mean in the sense of comparable complexity, damage, strategy, etc...not "it's so hard to get 20 people together!") and needs equivalent stats then I think a case could be made for having gear that is equal to the challenge.

    It's been pointed out before though, that if something like that went live there would be complaints from solo/small group players who did not want to have to work at getting those challenges down and succeed at them...people who just want the paycheque without doing the work.

    I don't raid, I just got back and haven't even thought about it. I have raided in the past and I don't suck at it. I would love a "hard mode path to amazing solo/small group gear" that made me sweat and get white-knuckled on the mouse to get it...that took me as much time as it takes a raider to accumulate their sets and carried equal levels of potential frustration...and I would work at it.

    But I would still not expect it to stat match identically with end-game relic level raid gear.
    Last edited by Landru; 06-26-2013 at 01:15 PM.
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