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Thread: The truth: Rift's selling point is the same thing holding it back

  1. #16
    Ascendant Europe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doc View Post
    I agree to the extent that there should be more role capable of doing raid content, but some souls are specifically meant for solo play, pvp, or pve play.

    Would it be amazing if this was changed? Yes!
    Sign me up for the opposite. I'm hoping the concept of PAs has fallen down the stairs and miscarried on the way to the expansion.
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    I mean, I guess it would just be a guy who you know, grabs bananas and runs. Or, um, a banana that grabs things. I donít know.
    Why would a banana grab another banana? I mean, those are the kind of questions I donít want to answer.

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Europe View Post
    Somehow I don't think it's 1 guy being 100 dps behind that's keeping those guilds from killing Laethys.
    No. It's bad RNG and Ituziel.
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  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Europe View Post
    Sign me up for the opposite. I'm hoping the concept of PAs has fallen down the stairs and miscarried on the way to the expansion.
    I hate the Planar Attunement system it just seems pointless and kinda not thought out.

    Did you play older EQ2?

    The Alternate advancement trees really provided the ground for some diverse things you could have been able to do, but it was scraped to become more like WoWs talent tree making it less diversifying.

    Now we really wouldn't need an AA tree to accomplish this as Rift has the already existing soul tree so modifier souls would be able to do the same thing that the AA tree tried to do in order to make souls do more than just 1 thing making not only 1 build be the end all for the calling.

  4. #19
    Ascendant NearioNL's Avatar
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    Meh I dont know, I like it the way it is.
    You still have flexibily in your spec, as a raider. You dont need to have 1 of the top dps builds to still be of use in a raid.

    Beside, do you really want that ID would have been cleared by over 20guilds by now(for example)??
    I like the fact that only 5 guilds have downed Leathys up to now(my guild is only 2/8). It means there is a challenge to overcome, aint that what raiding is about?
    There will be plenty of guilds who wont need you to have 1 of those top builds, the same as they wont need you to have maxed you PA, or whatever.
    2nd to that: When you raid, you will study the tactics. When you can study the tactics, then why not look for a good build which you would like to play(see: not BEST build which you MUST play).
    Beside: "Bad Players"(which can be new to MMO for example, so not just bad) can learn. People who are not willing to learn, should not raid
    Those basic builds provided by Trion are what they are, start builds. To get the game going, not to be your build for the entire game. You want to pvp? get a pvp build!! you want to raid? get a raiding build! and you know what? you got more then 1 build you can go with.


    There will always be 1 top dps build, and 1 top healing build and so on. This doesnt mean that the builds in between them are useless, they add other things to the raid.
    Last edited by NearioNL; 06-21-2012 at 01:46 PM.
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  5. #20
    RIFT Guide Writer TheGrinnz's Avatar
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    useful tooltips pls

  6. #21
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    here is my example. starcraft2 is a game with a huge range of skill some people no matter how hard they try just cannot exceed a sertin rank or skill level, its not because of the strats or builds they like to do but most of the time the execution of those builds or strats is wrong and misused.

    i feel the same applys for rift when it comes to raiding, just as with starcraft 2 where a little guidance and repetition of play can make that stuck player get better so will it help most rift players exceed there current knowledge of what to use when, and when to do this or that.

    do most guilds take the time to help make each of there players better players? most likely not.
    are there those helpful guilds out there that are willing to take the time to help make players better?
    i would like to think so.

  7. #22
    Plane Walker Matsu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Europe View Post
    Sign me up for the opposite. I'm hoping the concept of PAs has fallen down the stairs and miscarried on the way to the expansion.
    If that was the only change the expansion had I'd buy it in a heartbeat.

  8. #23
    Champion of Telara Arthritis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Europe View Post
    ...There were great players, but those players left for various reasons, and there are few capable replacements available. and it SHOWS. Good lord does it ever show.
    Miss me, huh? I wish you the very best of luck with your continued stay in Rift. If you get tired of the grind, meet me in DC Universe Online and we'll run several raids together. Everyday even....if you want.
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  9. #24
    Ascendant NearioNL's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eraser View Post
    here is my example. starcraft2 is a game with a huge range of skill some people no matter how hard they try just cannot exceed a sertin rank or skill level, its not because of the strats or builds they like to do but most of the time the execution of those builds or strats is wrong and misused.

    i feel the same applys for rift when it comes to raiding, just as with starcraft 2 where a little guidance and repetition of play can make that stuck player get better so will it help most rift players exceed there current knowledge of what to use when, and when to do this or that.

    do most guilds take the time to help make each of there players better players? most likely not.
    are there those helpful guilds out there that are willing to take the time to help make players better?
    i would like to think so.
    Raiding is about skill, and so it should be. If you want to down a boss, this takes a lot of wipes and learning the tact and even re-doing your spec. If you dont want that you should not raid.

    But I know for a fact that there are guilds who teach people, and help them out. Being guildleader of one of those guilds We take our time, and are willing to help new players out, teaching them whatever.
    They cant expect us to take them to ID, but they can gear up via the T1raids and HK while learning to play there calling.
    As long as they learn from their mistakes(RED=PAIN!!!! for example). And when there is 1, there are more
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  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by NearioNL View Post
    Raiding is about skill, and so it should be. If you want to down a boss, this takes a lot of wipes and learning the tact and even re-doing your spec. If you dont want that you should not raid.

    But I know for a fact that there are guilds who teach people, and help them out. Being guildleader of one of those guilds We take our time, and are willing to help new players out, teaching them whatever.
    They cant expect us to take them to ID, but they can gear up via the T1raids and HK while learning to play there calling.
    As long as they learn from their mistakes(RED=PAIN!!!! for example). And when there is 1, there are more
    glad to hear you help, i am also a very helpful person to anyone that needs it. and one reason i love rift is that its raid content is challenging and i hope it stays that way.

    i know there have been alot of people turned off to it because some of the content seems to hard for them but hopefully there are people like us to help thoes that feel this or that is too hard, instead of nerfing everything into a rofl stomp

  11. #26
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    To a point this is true. However you can also have a myriad of external circumstances that have nothing to do with the proper spec.

    To truly excel at bleeding edge content you need to have all of the following items:

    1) A solid understanding of your class and a desire to always keep current on changes/adaptations.
    Excellent hand-eye coordination.
    2) Good understanding of Macro systems and how to leverage them to your advantage.
    3) Solid understanding of keybindings and spell layout. (ie don't put spells that could cause serious issues beside spells that you use in your normal rotation)
    4) Not be a keyboard turner
    5) A clear head to deal with those "oh-@#$#" moments (this is where many players trip up)
    6) An excellent gaming rig and internet connection (having someone who's computer is pushing 10 FPS when all the effects are going off is going to cripple you.)

    It really doesn't matter how many choices you have for raiding specs there will always be one that will outshine others. This is due to mainly the fact that any MMO is an evolving entity and the designers do not have the time and money to test every possible combo to ensure that they are on par. Which means there will always be a cookie cutter build that the min/max players find to give them a competitive edge.

    I would say that another issue which is equally important is the ramp up time for someone new to be able to replace an excellent player which you have recently lost. Take a look at your character, at how much time and effort you have invested in it. Now imagine you were a brand new player to this game and your goal was to get to the hardcore endgame content. How much time would it take for that player to get to max level, max out their PA, build the rep, get all the gear they need and finally be able to step into the endgame?

    You will find that this gap is widening with each new content patch. I would say that this issue is also a major problem that isn't going to go away anytime soon.

  12. #27
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    So, basically you are saying Rifts soul system is too hard for your average player? Thats what I love so much about it! knowing your class and putting the effort into tweaking and tuning and testing and learning should have benefits. Trion no doubt is working on the pre built souls and the soul system in general those prebuilts should be good to use but not best. I think anyway, suppose that makes me a jerk.

    not that you don't make some good points and I agree mostly with this

    Quote Originally Posted by Europe View Post
    So what's the solution then, you ask? EVERY SOUL has to be stronger post-expansion. EVERY SOUL has to be capable of standing on its own and not sucking. The model needs to go from "you can find the secret OP build that nobody knows about and rule the world!" to "you can play your character in a ton of a different ways and not let your raid/group down."
    more variety FTW, although making every soul and combination pvp and/or raid viable.. don't know if that would work, mage souls for instance trade survivability for damage, kervick has said as much when talking about warlock - stating that it was not meant to be the best dps because of the huge survivability it has (ironically it is one of our better souls). It's those sort of choices and trade offs that make the system interesting and also one of the things players seem to not understand

    An option might be to give them recommend labels for solo play, group play, raid, survival build dps build, something to guide players starting out when making choices.

    even then there will be people who just want to play assassin or just want to play stormcaller or only want to be a full time druid, players who actually complain that there are too many choices for the last 15 points of a 51 point build

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Europe View Post
    So that's Rift's selling point. Why is it holding Rift back? Because the "good" players are allowed to be too much better than the "bad" ones. I'm not talking gear; I'm talking "skill" and builds. You can see it in ID progression right now. There are scarcely enough competent endgame raiders in the entire game for 5 guilds to kill Laethys. This isn't because nobody cares to kill Laethys, but because most of the players banging their heads against the wall are skill-capped. They aren't able to maximize their characters to the extent the others do, and they're stuck.
    IMO multiple guilds being "stuck" on a raid boss shows that the encounter is designed/balanced badly. All encounters in a raid zone should have a similar difficulty (rising while you move further into the zone). The end boss can and should certainly be harder, but not significantly so. We saw this in HK...lots of guilds who had done all but Akylios, and then couldn't beat him for weeks or even months (until he was nerfed). Thats a sign of failed enounter design to me, not a sign of the quality of the players.

    Another point was mentioned in a post above, things that a "good" raider needs to have. IMO Rift does not support its players well enough through its standard UI. An example, again from Akylios: waves are STILL not announced in the fight, while the stupid breath (which you CAN see easily) IS (although this goes to encounter design again). Instead I have to use a stopwatch, or an addon to time the waves...or rely on guildies who DO use one of those. This should be stuff in the STANDARD UI! Another example is that you pretty much need to have certain addons to play the top mage spec well (alerts for DoTs etc).

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Europe View Post
    Somehow I don't think it's 1 guy being 100 dps behind that's keeping those guilds from killing Laethys.
    This is exactly right. When I read the OP's post, the first thing that came to mind is the groups that can do 20k+ DPS and still can't take down a boss like Plutonus in RoS, or even Warmaster (and yes, this has happened many times with PUG's).

    In every raiding guild I've been in so far, DPS was NOT the limiting factor. HPS was NOT the limiting factor. They are basically crutches for less-skilled players (faster kills means less reliance upon keeping up with a long fight). And a majority of the raids are still so simple that the only real "skill" needed is to do one of the following:

    1) Stop attacking when name is called
    2) Move to point A when name is called
    3) Stay out of AoE's
    4) Stack on players when name is called

    For a majority of the fights, that's all that's needed. While HPS and DPS are part of the battle, my experience has showed that neither of those matter much: the issue is with players not being capable of (or wanting to) both use their skills and watch their screen for boss tells.


    Edit: for clarification, DPS matters when your group is getting the boss to its enrage state before killing it but are NOT healing it (Warmaster, for example). HPS matters when the tank is dying too quick or you can't keep up with the raid heals needed to go on for a couple minutes. Aside from that, neither of them are your limiting factor.
    Last edited by raptorak; 06-21-2012 at 11:57 PM.

  15. #30
    Champion of Telara Nnnxia's Avatar
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    I think to achieve the solution you described there has to be an incentive for players to find and reveal the "secret OP" builds first. Then you have to create an incentive for players to teach these secret specs as well.

    This can be achieved by exposing the current sample soul system Trion has in place to User submissions. As in players will be able to submit their specs into that system for other players to choose from. Also a rating thumbs up and down system will probably have to be implemented to ensure that useful specs make it in. On top of that the transition of switching souls has to be minimal when trying out User submissions and hotbar customization has to be quick and easy so that players can jump straight in. Furthermore, on top of that the system must be able to identify gear levels and extrapolate and predict a player's performance from his AP/DPS ratings, to give new players trying a spec a gauge or goal, but that is pretty advanced. And on top of that there will have to be tiered for different levels of characters and etc. So it will be pretty complex in total.

    Of course just building a spec and throwing it into the sample system is not enough, detailed explanations of rotations and macros have to be implemented by the submitter and a difficulty rating and gear requirements as well. So what kind of incentive are we talking about? Maybe have the spec named after the Submitter once a credible number of votes have been received? Many people eg. Ahov/Hoko, have named specs after themselves but who knows who made them first. Or charge players a fixed cost for different tiers of information? Eg. 10 gold for the build, 50 gold for rotations, 1pt for everything else. But no overcharging and crap.

    This could create an entirely new metagame in rift. A player driven spec efame game for information and the creation of information. It would also probably lead to the scrapping of the current 6 slots system into something else. Maybe 20 slots of your own personal or other favorited specs of different types. Where you can favourite maybe Hoko's 1.7 sabdancer in Slot 3, Mayi's Ranger for 1.8 in slot 4 and Igneous Bladedancer in Slot 5 and god forbid Dunsparrow's Thunder Emperor Shenanigan Spec in Slot 6, etc. And have them all ready to use on the fly. We could even have in depth looks at the performance of each spec in different situations/boss fights and create dps/hps rankings for each spec by different players.

    If such a system is put in place, we could even tie it into a Trion sponsored Raidlogs 2.0 website and perhaps just than the entire Raid scene would become competitive again, but they could probably just expand their current ranking system to include Boss times and top dps/hps/tanking for each class. So that you would know that Qan is the best ranger in the world or whatever.

    I started writing this out with Raiding in mind but now that I think of it this system could spill over into PvP/5mans/10mans and other aspects of Rift as well.

    Hope someone gets inspired.
    Last edited by Nnnxia; 06-22-2012 at 12:12 AM.

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