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Thread: The add-on I want now. ;)

  1. #61
    Champion Nethos's Avatar
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    For every person that hates the meters because they cant/wont learn how to play properly,I contend that there are just as many that like to fine tune and min/max and see themselves progress on the same meters.

    I also contend when most people run their daily T2 or raid or whatever,they dont want it to take forever,die alot,etc,etc because they are carrying someone.Hiding fail is not the solution,if you want to fail go solo the duo dungeons and die as many times as you like,but dont bring your fail into my T2 with you please.

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drakinor View Post
    While I do not know the OPs dps situation, and I know mine is not T2 ready, I have seen the horror these meters cause. I played a mage in WoW for a long time and was constantly changing my build and rotation with the nerfs and buffs and generally was 1st or 2nd in heroics and in the top 5 in 25 mans. Problem you get isnt just people who do crappy dps but people who dont want to allow others to gear up to max because they just want their daily runs to go as fast as possible and kick anyone who isnt fully in top tier dps gear so they can cut down on time. I ran into that several times at the starts of expansions when I wasnt in my full new tier set yet and wasnt running with my guild. Even if I was doing more than enough dps for the dungeon the group would kick because it wouldnt be a cake walk 15minute faceroll everything run (obviously WOTLK would be an exception to all of this since you could faceroll everything undergeared and could acquire T9 in under a week of dailies) but its not the occasional low dps thats my problem, its the elitists who kick the guy whos doing ok not great and we all have to wait for that great guy, then of course that takes too long so the group /ragequits and we all get to wait longer.
    I use a DPS meter for my own purpose so I know how I stack up. I'm not the elitist type, but still wouldn't it be easier to just kick them out after inspecting them rather than waiting to see average DPS on a DPS meter? So it seems to me the meter itself does not sure the problem.

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by the_real_seebs View Post
    A couple of reasons, the main one of which is: It would not actually have the effect they are advocating for.

    One of the problems you face in designing tools, games, etcetera, is that people often want thing A, they think about it, they conclude that thing B would provide thing A, and then they demand thing B. But they don't want B; they want A. And if B doesn't actually give them A, you can give them B and they won't be at all happier.

    What people want is for it to be somehow impossible for someone to kick them from a group for performing poorly. So they think "hmm, people do that from looking at meters. If meters didn't show me, this couldn't happen!" And they ask for a way to get excluded from meters.

    Now, stop and think about the hypothetical guy who's gonna kick you from a group for underperforming. What do you think he'll do if he sees you listed at 0 DPS? He'll kick you, that's what. Doesn't matter whether he's stupid enough to actually think you're doing 0 DPS, or whether he just thinks you shouldn't be hiding your numbers. He'll kick you.

    What if he couldn't see anyone's numbers? Well, that might almost work, but it would hurt a lot of people.

    And the fact is, there's a ton of people who very much want the ability to run raid-wide DPS meters and the like.



    No, it's that they're wrong because of what they have to say. We've heard it all, and most of it is simply not true. This game has had working damage meters since beta. It is not, in general, a problem -- and for many people it's been a huge boon.

    People in general are very bad at figuring out what it is that they actually want, as opposed to their first guess of a method for getting it. Me, I realized that what I want to do is have fun, and that grouping with jerks is unfun. If someone is a jerk, any tool that makes it easier for them to kick me out of their groups is helping me achieve my goal of having fun.
    The thing is and a most important thing is EVERYBODY IS NOT YOU! Everybody has a brain and the ability to CHOOSE how they want to play. What YOU THINK doesn't matter to THEM it's what THEY THINK on an individual basis. Therefore is a LARGE portion of the population (forumites mostly) DO NOT WANT the parcers to see what they do then TRION should ACT upon that and not worry about the FEW. I can almost guarantee that there is more of a DEMAND to REMOVE the ability than there is FOR IT.

    Personally I think TRION should TAKE A VOTE and let the final vote rule the outcome. ;) Send an email to every customer and let them vote.

  4. #64
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    There have been polls, Addons or No, and the people who want addons outweigh the people who don't. ALL THOSE PEOPLE would vote against removing other peoples damage from combat log, hell even some of the people who don't want addons would think thats stupid, and vote against it. So I don't know where anyone is coming from this. The people that want to remove others seeing there damage is the vast minority. Seriously, either DPS better or don't que then if your that embaressed of your DPS you don't want others to see.

    If your in my group, you directly effect how much time I have to waste in a stupid T2, so it's my right to see if you are carrying your weight or not.

  5. #65
    Ascendant Wolfetx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Femme Fatal1 View Post
    The thing is and a most important thing is EVERYBODY IS NOT YOU! Everybody has a brain and the ability to CHOOSE how they want to play. What YOU THINK doesn't matter to THEM it's what THEY THINK on an individual basis. Therefore is a LARGE portion of the population (forumites mostly) DO NOT WANT the parcers to see what they do then TRION should ACT upon that and not worry about the FEW. I can almost guarantee that there is more of a DEMAND to REMOVE the ability than there is FOR IT.

    Personally I think TRION should TAKE A VOTE and let the final vote rule the outcome. ;) Send an email to every customer and let them vote.
    You know i would bet your wrong on the part in red. Matter of fact this thread alone proves that those that would want to disable are in t he minority and i can guarantee you that the majority of the player base doesnt give 2 coppers about it.

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by RengarA View Post
    I don't know how this idea of addons cause people to become evil idea start, but frankly I think it's completely absurd. People who are jerks, will be jerks and use every tool available to them to continue to be jerks. People who nice, continue to be helpful and supportive. People who don't care, will continue not to care.

    The idea that any tool drastically changes the way a person behaves is silly. Someone in a T2 who is stating your DPS is bad and is kicking you would have likely done so whether then were using a DPS meter or not. The DPS meter just makes them feel better about their own justification.
    I have to disagree with you on this.

    Worst moment in MMO addon history, in my opinion, was when Gearscore was introduced to WoW. I'm not saying addons cause players to become evil, but that addon caused more jerks to "out" themselves than any other addon available at that time.
    Last edited by Raptor7; 10-19-2011 at 03:10 AM.

  7. #67
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    The information provided by something like a log parser is invaluable in many circumstances. The problem is not with the information itself, but rather he abuse of said information by the multitude of clowns out there.

    When you play as part of a group, you have an obligation to the other people involved to do your best. A log parser such as ACT means that everyone gets held accountable for their performance. I see nothing wrong with that...and I tend to wonder a tad at the mentality of individuals who think there is something wrong with being held accountable for how their actions are affecting other people's game experience.

    That being said, the goons who give people **** because they are pulling say 1350 DPS instead of 1500 (just pulling numbers outta my arse here), when there's no major affect on the efficiency of the group/raid, need to be rounded up and shot.
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  8. #68
    Champion Naduri's Avatar
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    I'm sure someone has already made this point (although I haven't seen it) but if you show up for a group with such an option you will be kicked just as fast as if you had been doing 50 dps. The only conclusion anyone can reach from hiding your numbers is that you have something to hide.

    Maybe it would speed things up I guess.
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  9. #69
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    ITT we learn that the majority of forum posters=majority play game.

    Let him hide it and let him get booted for hiding. It really wouldnt bother me.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cromagis View Post
    Warriors are on par with cleric and rogue tanking

  10. #70
    Shield of Telara Jawsnap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kakiro View Post
    I love the "Games are just lines of code, code can be changed" super oversimplification of how MMO's work. It can't be done, and if it was it'd be basicly considered hacking and you'd get banned.

    I want an add-on that auto-ignores all the people whining about addons.
    I think what Drak meant, was that the game is comprised of millions of lines of code - and that those lines of code can easily be changed. I think Drak failed to outline that, this is true - in it's un-compiled state - though I believe he knew that already.

    Also, you can't 'hack' code once it's compiled. With things like Rift, you don't see the code that is executed, you only see the result of it. It's like PHP, you can't view the PHP in 'view source' on the browser, because you can only see the result of it.

    <?php
    echo "Hello World";
    ?>

    ... doesn't show you that in the browser, nor anywhere else - it is executed on the server and the result is given to the client... in this case "Hello World" (Without double-quotes) will be printed in the top left of your screen.

    Quote Originally Posted by Drakinor View Post
    lol I love how you leave out me saying it wouldnt be an easy change and then assume that I mean to hack the game. And games, like any software can be broken down to lines of code, sure RIFT has millions upon millions but they are still just that lines of code, if you wanna get really technical you can include class (not in game but coding) headers, xml files etc but guess what those too are lines of code. Just like your body is a bunch of cells, not oversimplifying anything, stating a fact. So when you find a video game that isnt lines of code you let me know lol, until then try trolling elsewhere
    Quite right, though - good luck to anyone who tries to reverse engineer the client, half the game client is gobbledygook. It's basically a "Wtf... I don't even.. BBQ!"

    You wouldn't be able to create an addon to call on a function in the game's codebase, because it's in a compiled state, only functions that are made the result of another function would be able to be called on, hence how the Lua Engine operates. A series of bytes and op-codes are accessible as a result of the compiled source. That's about it.

    I'm actually in favor of the OP, though... not quite the same.

    I dislike addons. I never used them in WoW, never used them in Rift, never used them in anything. Sure, it's nice to customize the client with additional extras, but hey - they cause problems in more ways than one. The biggest problem I've seen before would be poor coding. Some of the source for these Rift addons are friggin' horrendous - like... seriously, I've actually had 11yr old developers writing up Lua for my old game server who've produced MUCH better code.

    Shocking.

  11. #71
    Shield of Telara
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    No reason to hide your parse at all, I went into a t2 with crafted and quest level gear and was still pulling 750+ dps st on my alt, which went to over 1k once I replaced my quest blue with the one from the dungeon. If you are hiding your parse you're lazy pure and simple.

    Like other people are said, if you hide your parse I will vote to kick you. Even if you're doing a good job I will kick you on principle.

  12. #72
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    BEFORE YOU READ: The worst thing that TRION as a company could ever do at this point is build their raids around add-ons like World of Warcraft did, Worst. Concept. Ever. Timed attacks with no randomization? Boring challenge.

    Honestly, there should be no way to hide your contribution to a Raid, whether it's heals, damage or tanking. You aren't soloing a Raid or a Dungeon by yourself where it doesn't matter. You are playing with 5 other people who are putting in their time just as you are to better themselves and are depending on you to hold your own and be properly geared so the Dungeon doesn't take 2 hours instead of 1 hour. There are elitists out there that can't stand spending more than 15 minutes extra over the time in dungeons; that's lame and this isn't the problem here.

    If I'm going to spend 30-60 minutes of my time with someone else in a Dungeon, I expect you to be properly geared. I'm not saying you need the gear that's best in slot; but you should at least attempt to max out what you can with quest gear, lower dungeons, reputation quests (you know, this can be argued because grinding Stillmoor is a *****...understandable), normal dungeons etc, enchants etc.

    You can't just expect to steam roll in Experts with crappy gear. I mean if you're doing it with people you know and not a pickup that's their decision. But when it comes to pick up groups, the bar is a lot higher. Honestly, I think that's all I'm going to type. The DPS meters, HPS meters, Threat meters help to keep lazy players out of potentially great groups with people that want to succeed.

    You either are going to care about your character or not; if you don't, then don't expect to Raid or have good expert experiences. You have to keep in mind you're playing with 4+ other strangers most of the time. Why waste their time? The vote kicking is probably one of the greatest features in the game.

    There is multitudes of information on the internet right now for every spec, stats to focus on, all the strategies for fights; you have no excuse to be lazy and not know what's going on.

    I used to be against dps meters, hps meters and threat meters... until I started raiding in multiple MMOs and seeing people in greens or missing equipment in slots or raiding with pvp gear lol. So glad I changed my view.
    Last edited by Erusidhion; 10-19-2011 at 04:24 AM.

  13. #73
    Rift Disciple Starbuck's Avatar
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    My issues have never been with parsers...sometimes they are funny for WTF?! moments when you totally blow some ***** little minds because of the parse you just crushed them with...using a spec they don't understand.

    But to me that would be the failing part of parsers...the idiots who don't understand them. ***** envy through numbers...that is what they are to most people. Ripping aggro from the tank, "lulz"ing at anyone below them...even though they can inspect the person and see that their gear isn't upgraded yet. Complaining for zero reason. Sometimes it seems like parsers are too much for some people to handle. It causes them to lose grasp of the other concepts that they seemed to miss...like if the group is cruising through a zone with zero issues, why would it matter if you aren't running [insert the latest FotM pure dps (by a whole 5dps) build for your class here]. People who use parsers to micro manage others when they can't understand anything except that one number is larger than another are idiots...but you can't convince them they are an idiot because their number was higher than yours on an encounter where there was virtually no risk anyways even if everyone in the group was naked.

    Parsers are valuable for beating encounters that you are having trouble with...thats it. But for some people, its the way they justify being an *** hat.
    Quote Originally Posted by Starbuck View Post
    RIP Chopsticks!

    ...I will remember this...Trion saying "So...we realized we put a hair model into the game we didn't mean to, and we realize that you guys have been using it for like months, but after careful consideration we decided upon our plan to remove it. First we will pull it, undocumented, unmentioned, and unexplained. Then we will ignore or deny all /reports on it being missing and redirect everyone into limbo until such time has passed that we can feel comfortable saying "You can't expect us to change it back NOW can you?""

    It will stand as an example to me of how Trion will "deal" with "fixing" what wasn't a "problem" to begin with and then hide behind some malarkey excuse...

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Erusidhion View Post
    BEFORE YOU READ: The worst thing that TRION as a company could ever do at this point is build their raids around add-ons like World of Warcraft did, Worst. Concept. Ever. Timed attacks with no randomization? Boring challenge.

    Honestly, there should be no way to hide your contribution to a Raid, whether it's heals, damage or tanking. You aren't soloing a Raid or a Dungeon by yourself where it doesn't matter. You are playing with 5 other people who are putting in their time just as you are to better themselves and are depending on you to hold your own and be properly geared so the Dungeon doesn't take 2 hours instead of 1 hour. There are elitists out there that can't stand spending more than 15 minutes extra over the time in dungeons; that's lame and this isn't the problem here.

    If I'm going to spend 30-60 minutes of my time with someone else in a Dungeon, I expect you to be properly geared. I'm not saying you need the gear that's best in slot; but you should at least attempt to max out what you can with quest gear, lower dungeons, reputation quests (you know, this can be argued because grinding Stillmoor is a *****...understandable), normal dungeons etc, enchants etc.

    You can't just expect to steam roll in Experts with crappy gear. I mean if you're doing it with people you know and not a pickup that's their decision. But when it comes to pick up groups, the bar is a lot higher. Honestly, I think that's all I'm going to type. The DPS meters, HPS meters, Threat meters help to keep lazy players out of potentially great groups with people that want to succeed.

    You either are going to care about your character or not; if you don't, then don't expect to Raid or have good expert experiences. You have to keep in mind you're playing with 4+ other strangers most of the time. Why waste their time? The vote kicking is probably one of the greatest features in the game.

    There is multitudes of information on the internet right now for every spec, stats to focus on, all the strategies for fights; you have no excuse to be lazy and not know what's going on.

    I used to be against dps meters, hps meters and threat meters... until I started raiding in multiple MMOs and seeing people in greens or missing equipment in slots or raiding with pvp gear lol. So glad I changed my view.
    Uhh raid bosses are already on timers. Zilas' laser, Molinar's crushing blows, greenscale's breath are all easily timed and predicted. What your really saying is Trion allowing a DBM type mod would be the worst thing ever. And all DBM is, is a crutch for average players to play better. As it is even if a DBM came out, I wouldn't use it since I can pay attention to bad stuff on the ground.

  15. #75
    Plane Walker Matsu's Avatar
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    I think Trion should do it. Then we can all laugh at the massive 'Trion needs to remove votekick' thread that will shortly follow.

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