I find myself longing for the good old days.

[Asangar]

SWG!!! i find none other game as much fun as that one was, before the (*&& it up!

Rift does come second though

[Belzebuth]

Challenging? If you mean having spent a ton of time in those levels... Spending a long time doing something does not make it Challenging though. More time does not me more difficult, it just means it takes longer.

I too played EQ and I believe that, as with most things in life, you simply remember just the good and all the pain and suffering has faded. I"m happy I played, got some great memories from there, but I don't want to go back to the stone age of MMO's.

You miss the point, longer in EQ1 = make more groups, adventures in all the different dungeons available at your lvl range, learn to play your class and learn to understand other classes, lean the ethic and common senses, forge yourself a reputation etc etc etc.

Fresh 60 in Rift are as noob as a lvl 1.

[Raen Ryong]

Grinding should never take too long. That is not challenge - that is tedium. The type of player who thinks everyone should be forced to mindlessly grind should never be listened to by any game developer.

[Tolmos]

You miss the point, longer in EQ1 = make more groups, adventures in all the different dungeons available at your lvl range, learn to play your class and learn to understand other classes, lean the ethic and common senses, forge yourself a reputation etc etc etc.

Fresh 60 in Rift are as noob as a lvl 1.

Yea, and part of the reason people used to have lives ruined by EQ1 wasn't because it was so addicting, but because you were so desperate for a group that when one finally popped you'd give up anything to stay in it. :-P

As with all things in life, MMOs have progressed towards a slightly better model. Which is why even the smallest MMOs out right now still have populations comparable (if not larger than) their original counterparts.

Though, a new iteration of UO would not be frowned upon here... >_>

[RangerRob]

You maxed all six branches of Planar Attunment already??

You completely miss the point. This isn't a 'there is no content' post, this is a 'there is no community' post... and you know what... he's right. The MMO community has been going downhill ever since Blizzard released WotLK and that created an influx of people who the genre wouldn't traditionally have appealed to. Some of those people were good additions but (in my opinion) large numbers of them were not.

[Ibil]

That's not challenge. That's a time sink. If you want challenge, go play Demon's Souls.

[miscrpgdude]

And to the person who quoted that he/she blames the solo player, well here is the scoop, we are all solo when we sit at a computer. It's the fantasy of virtual friends. And that is very sad don't you think. For goodness sake its a computer game. It all ends when you switch the computer off. Unlike real life.

WTH is a "virtual friend"? You do realize that there are actual people behind them right? Oh I get it, your a sociopath who's only restraint is based on oppressive social requirement, well then by all means carry on.

[Meegs]

No matter how bad MMOS are today, I will never long for things like corpse runs, camp checks, sitting to "meditate" because you had no other way to regain mana , or my fave : losing three levels because I fell asleep at the keyboard while grinidng on killing guards and having the guards kill ME for hours before I woke up.


Nope, sorry , those were NOT good ole days for me. I am fine with the way things are thank you.

[Alatarv]

No one misses the good old days. Nostalgia is a disease that can be cured by spending a few minutes actually reliving the good old days. The good news is, EQ is still here. So go download a trial copy or something and spend a couple hours reliving your glory days.

You will come screaming back.

I could give you the anecdotal evidence from my own life (which involves an old computer 20 years ago, and more recently the MMO Dark Age of Camelot), but wall of text is bad and I don't feel like writing something that won't be read.

But yeah, go play the old games again. Go ahead. Really! It'll cure you of this nostalgia crap. (Or, it won't, but then at least you will have found your happy place.)

[kasanth]

My friends and I were talking about this a few weeks ago.
Even though we like to be able to get things done no matter if we are all on to group or not.
We do miss the days of all day grinds to get 1 level and the celebration of getting there.
But we also understand why EQ and others like it never did as good as some MMOs do today.

I sometimes miss the having to group to get anything done including leveling.
What I dont miss however is the main thing that caused me to quit the MMORPG I was playing before Rift, and before WoW.
That is the hours I spent online looking for a group since none of my friends were on. Only to end up logging off frustrated 4 hours later because I didnt get anything done and just wasted my time.

My last day that I played the other game. I spent 6 hours online looking for a group because my Rogue was 3 levels from lvl cap. 6 hours later I log off with nothing done because I couldnt get in a group.
I would rather play a game that you can level a character on your own and do quests on your own
and group with friends when they are on, then ever play one that you waste 6 hours on sitting there because you cant do anything without a group.

[Otwist]

People, including myself, hated the grind of older MMO's, but in my mind thats where communities were build, friends were made and guilds were formed.

I remembed griding in DAOC for hours pulling mobs in a PBAOE group to get a level, and it would have been mind numbingly bad if not for the social aspect of it. The joke making, general conversation and farsical things that happened during that time is what made friends and got me into a guild i stayed in for years.

In RIFT you dont even get a chance to make friends and join a guild, it goes so fast and the public groups disband right after the rift/invasion is finished.

Rift places the grind AFTER you hit 50, those older games placed the grind ON getting to 50.

[Wifeagro]

I blame people who want to play solo in a multiplayer.

you have hit the nail on the head. T2 is doable with a good 3 man the diffculty has been so reduced i just resubbed to see 1.5 after leaving at 1.3 , i cannot beieve i cleared all of t2 in dungeon finder groups. ive already unsubbed and will og in once a day to get my 15 bucks worth . rift was so fun at launch the content was challenging fun and it had the right skill lvl. I feel no sense of accomplishment and am sadened that MMO devolpers have decieded we are to stupid to accomplish the goals.

[Goldenwing]

People, including myself, hated the grind of older MMO's, but in my mind thats where communities were build, friends were made and guilds were formed.

I remembed griding in DAOC for hours pulling mobs in a PBAOE group to get a level, and it would have been mind numbingly bad if not for the social aspect of it. The joke making, general conversation and farsical things that happened during that time is what made friends and got me into a guild i stayed in for years.

In RIFT you dont even get a chance to make friends and join a guild, it goes so fast and the public groups disband right after the rift/invasion is finished.

Rift places the grind AFTER you hit 50, those older games placed the grind ON getting to 50.

I'm finding that a lot of level 50 chat and the invasions/ raids at 50 ARE like DAoC...... because I still
operate exactly the same way in Rift, as I did back then:

I still bring: joke making, general conversation, and farcical things to whatever group/raid I am in.

I am aware if it doesn't play well and stop.

I often use it to dispel tension, and usually it increases the fun factor for folks around me. Like DAoC, I remember them, they remember me and our guild and it's "hail, well met again!" next time out as well as invites to other outings.

It's a great feeling to know that can still happen.

Yes, older MMOs and their game mechanics helped to promote that. And I have been one of the most vocal on the WoW VN board from day 1 about the lack of community-promoting game mechanics. WoW had by far, out of all the games I have played over 12+ years, hands-down, THE worst community ever.

And you know what, there were still periods where my guild was doing public raid leading, and we brought the "fun" to the function. So there were bright spots, even in that game where most of the "entitled" "younger" players treated others, including their own guildmates, like they were NPCs.


Back to Rift:

Some of the nicest community I have found in a long time exists on our Rift shard, and even better, some of it is in the other faction. Our Guardian guild enjoys hanging out doing rifts/invasions when we see certain Defiant guilds in the zone, and we will stop what we are doing to go roll with them for a while. Even the ones we've fought against during BGs. That old DAoC appreciation for a good player still exists.


Yes, the main difference between the new MMO's and the old ones is the game mechanics that force people to modify their behavior (reputation mattered or groups didn't happen.) Yes, I miss that.

I do not miss grinds, I do not miss forced grouping.

I love the ability to solo.

Rift has a pretty good balance. The only thing missing is the one-game mechanic DAoC had that was hands down the most effective community-builder I've ever seen: everything you did in your realm, helped your realm. Rewards were realm-wide. Handing a stranger gear, money, helping them out meant they were going to be able to stand by your side and fight. Or fight for you, if you couldn't. Every piece of gear that a realm-mate got (even if you didn't), meant the realm was stronger, better. Your realm-mate succeeding was you succeeding. Yeah. That was win-win teamwork. I loved it.

Rifts/Invasions mimic that a bit. The old feel is still there, even if the mechanics aren't 100%.

And a lot of it, is my perspective, what I'm willing to do, and how I'm willing to think about it.

Just the way the old DAoC players and EQ players set a "tone" when our server started. It's still there. As long as we still promote it and protect it.



The bottom line of all this rocking chair rambling is: Rift offers a lot more diversity in its gameplay than the older MMO's, including the ability to solo, to join and leave groups quickly without a lot of social interaction and the trade-off is an impact on community.

Some of that is the genre moving forward, some of that is the game, and some of it is the players.

I'm still working to keep the "old traditions" going, in spirit.



-shutting up

[Rowwan]

You're high on crack if you can call the newly introduced planar attunements "The End Game". Don't you people know anything about marketing? It is just like Jobs and his iPhone - you come out with just a few improvements to a product such as the latest version of the iPhone or the latest installment of Rift and it convinces the sheep that they need to buy a new phone or in our case convinces us we need to keep subscribing. A pusher will do the exactly same thing, they will give you just enough product that they get you hooked and then they own you. Why do you think the software companies give you a month free to play? Companies like Trion are nothing more than "Pixel Pushers" and you have to decide how long you want to be an addict. But if think this is the end game you really need to get some sun and some more schooling

^^^^^truth of the matter^^^^^see above^^^^^reality check^^^^^the matrix has you^^^^^

[Quay]

Player 1: so that's why i don't use soap
Player 2: pop
Player 3: ur still crazy
Player 4: pop
Player 1: don't knock it til u tried it
Player 3: ima call u stinky now
Player 3: stinky
Player 5: lol
Player 2: POP!
Player 1: oops *pulls*

Heh, I haven't seen anyone say "pop" in rift yet.

I think this thread should probably be redone, because most people are taking off with the OP's suggested reasons, rather than their actual complaint. I, too, miss the friendly social banter, the type of relationships we had with each other, the importance of reputation, and just generally knowing each other and remembering who each other was. I often wonder where it has gone. I agree the slow curve kept us grouping with the same people every day and was a contributing factor, but I don't think it was the only one.

Static camps. We used to kill stuff and wait. If the group was reasonably decent, you had the spawn timer beat, and so it was kill, chat, kill, chat, kill, chat. We all said "pop" 100 some times every night. It was more efficient to sit and wait than to run to another camp and back and chatting was the best way to pass the time between spawns. With instances, it's all about finishing. It's a race to the end and little reward unless you finish. There's no time to stop and some people drop group if someone takes even a 30 second bio break. If you chat, you are wasting time, and might be kicked. Finish an instance, run another, no time. The funny thing is 99% of people finish an instance, disband, and go back to another 2 hour wait in the LFG queue. The old camps once you got in you stayed for 5, 6, more hours. Maybe if we talked a little more, we'd stay together, run another instance, save ourselves the horror of reentering the queue?

Button frenzy. Autoattack used to do a much greater percentage of the total damage. The rest was one or two abilities on decently long refreshes or cast times. You could easily hit a button, write a line of chat, hit a button while reading, write your next line of chat. Now we have to push every button on our bar, still mindlessly, but nonetheless. My boss fight is like literally just press every button on my hotbar from 1 to - and then repeat starting at 2. Even if you macro, you have to spam the button over and over and can't type. Because the old way required no skill...(lol) Every patch I just check to make sure my rotation doesn't "suck" and then spam it for another million fights.

Jitterbugs. Scripted encounters with lasers, ground spawns, and emotes. Quests to pick up all these items, or use these items on this, etc. We are constantly running around and clicking crap. Otherwise we might be afk or a bot. Seriously the next generation of MMORPG will probably have random popups where we have to type the letters and digit combinations from the image that appears on our screen. Emote: "Gorlock is ANGRY. Initializing image verification. Please type the following code. Click to hear it."

Voice Communication. Because we're busy moving, clicking, and button mashing, a lot of interaction has shifted to voice. Unfortunately, if you are like me, voice brings its own wide array of problems. One, I'm not alone at my computer. It's one thing to type and click and still be available to my family--at the very least not disturb them if they are watching movies or reading books or something. But once you put on a headset and start chatting, you are disruptive and ignoring them. That might work for your family, but not for mine. Two, without visual cues, it's hard to tell whose turn it is to speak. With chat, everyone can type at the same time and it'll sort itself out, with voice not so much. Ultimately, it turns into a chat leader type of show with a speak when spoken to sort of feel. I've had some positive experiences when I'm home alone and in voice with one or two other people, but otherwise it's a pain. It's stressful and annoying and everyone always has volume equalization problems which they refuse to fix until you finally adjust them yourself and then they do fix it so you have to adjust them back.

Burnout. I see MMORPG players have both been playing MMORPGs in general for longer and playing each individual game for shorter periods of time. They've seen their fare share of friends come and go. They stick to their friends from previous games or real life family and friends until they've seen someone around a lot and think there's a good chance they will be staying. And because of the fast curve and random multi-shard LFG where we never see the same person twice, it takes a long time before people start to remember you. Eventually it happens, but it's not like before where you hold a six hour camp with someone and add them to your friends' list. Now it's never really going to happen on LFG or warfronts or questing (as if anyone groups for questing), but it might happen in raiding if a group is short-handed and you get invited or vice-versa. Do a few raids with people and find some new friends. Sucks for people who don't raid as there is really no alternative.

Anyway, those are my thoughts for other determining factors. It has become much more challenging and I can't offer a good solution. I'd say there are still players out there looking for a good party banter, but where would we have it? I guess old school players could form a group on zone chat for a dungeon and take their time going through it, but I highly doubt seeing that happen. I dunno, on this issue I'm really puzzled. People will always take the path of least resistance, so unless there is an equivalent path which allows for chat-breaks, I don't see this coming back any time soon.