+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 58 1 2 3 4 5 11 51 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 862

Thread: Dual Targeting

  1. #1
    Prophet of Telara StealthStalker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Posts
    1,050

    Lightbulb Dual Targeting

    I'm not sure how much about the UI those of you who haven't gotten to play know yet, but one of the major issues is the lack of a Dual Targeting system, for me.

    Currently, this game uses the traditional target, target of target, and "focus" target system. This is an old system, and outdated.I personally believe a dual-target system provides much larger benefits in the grand scheme of things than the previous one. Whether that's just making you be more engaged (seriously, having to choose your own targets is a step above having the game do it for you with target of target. Pro-active is more entertaining, rather than being reactive.), or being more functional in allowing you to keep a target (friendly or enemy) while changing the other.

    Now, if you're familiar with the old system, and would like to keep it, you know what, that's fine. However, those of us who have experienced a dual-target UI, and game, simply can not return to not having access to it. At least, I can't.

    So please, give us the option to use whatever targeting system we prefer, as the lack of dual targeting is a severe hindrance in PvP play, and I'd argue the same in PvE, but I'm sure it's too ingrained in the (yes, I'm going to say it) "easymode" playstyle some of you have come to know.

    Targeting the 'target of target' is simply removing any thinking you have to do, planning, etc. Focus targeting at least requires you to plan ahead and choose a target, so I'll give you that much.

    Dual target allows you to have a focus target, without ever having to waste an extra keypress or macro/bind to change the said target, or to cast on said target.

    I don't have very many examples, but the best I can provide is this video from a PvP encounter in Warhammer.

    Things to note about the game and my UI, if you aren't familiar with it:

    The target on the left, is my friendly target.
    The target on the right, is my enemy target.
    Bars appearing red in the "raid" window at the bottom are dead people in my Warband.
    These bars and buffs/etc are all positioned and scaled to my liking, it's actually a very customized UI compared to the default one.

    Selecting a friendly, or enemy target has no bearing on the opposite target, and I do not have to use any macro or 'hotkey' to set either target, It's a click on the player in game, or by using an /assist or /aid macro, tab target, etc. Throughout the encounter I continuously change enemy/friendly targets to Res/Damage/heal as needed. Again, this has no bearing on the opposite target.

    Warhammer:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nm-fF...tailpage#t=46s
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ok0ajYQh374&hd=1

    Vanguard:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PlMEuVY19ws&hd=1 (Mindtwist)

    You can't accomplish this on the fly with the current targeting system in RIFT, so please let me have my dual targets and you can keep your outdated focus/target of target if you wish.

    I'll stick to my planning ahead and pro-active targeting, instead of reactive. This, to me, is very important in PvP.

    I really don't want this to turn into a debate about which is better in the end, but rather want it to be a request to have dual targeting implemented and allow us to simply choose which way we'd like to have the information displayed to us. If you think you're better off with target of target and focus target, then go for it. I just want access to what I personally think is more beneficial to me.

    Update 2-10
    AGN Dead Pixel Live Interview w/ Scott Hartsman:

    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Hartsman
    Potentially as an option in the future, and the reason for an option is that Dual Targeting, we actually have the guy who works here who implemented the first Dual Targeting system in a MMO. And you know, Dual Targeting is something that, it is when you design your classes and your abilities and your souls around it, it is something that becomes a huge gigantic bonus.

    So since our game is not designed around the idea of, spell does this thing negative to my offensive target, spell does this thing to my defensive target, it's not particularly something you just slide right in.

    That said, I think it would have a lot of value as as an option for people who do enjoy that, who do enjoy having that available, to be used in our existing soul system, yes.
    Edit:

    In addition to everything above, dual targeting brings about new styles of play/can enhance the mechanic of certain Souls, or classes, that could benefit from such a system. Primarily anyone who uses an ability that can lifetap, buff/debuff or in other ways affect both a friendly or enemy target at the same time. I mention it later on in this thread, and we discuss a little bit of the potential, but the gist is:

    Quote Originally Posted by Grev View Post
    As it has been mentioned in the last pages here, DT clears the ground for a whole new set of abilities and spells. It adds complexity (imo a good thing).

    - You can throw a lifetap on the mob, and make the lifetap heal someone other than the MT/player who currently is agroed.
    - Throw a debuff on the mob - that gives the DPS char in my grp a dmg modifier (you have the dps char as friendly target)
    - Use a shout/command/bard song that increases the healing of the cleric in youre grp, while still attacking the mob (mob targeted as enemy, cleric as friendly target)

    etc etc.

    I dont want the game AI to guess or pick for me, who should benefit from my beneficial casts, i want to make that dscision myself.
    To further emphasize the first point. If you have a lifetap dot that heals a friendly target (or your focus target) for damage done on the enemy player, with Dual targeting you simply need to select any new friendly target while it ticks away on the enemy. Without ever having to 'set' a new target, burn a hotkey, or any modifier.

    Simply choose who you want to receive the heals from those effects, dots, or abilities.

    I'm not sure any classes currently utilize their mechanics in such ways, but a true dual targeting system would allow them to. The Justicar, Shaman, or Chloromancer lifeleech abilities could really be taken a step further.

    Take a look into the DoK, WP, or any other healer from Warhammer's arsenal.

    Edit #2

    Common misconceptions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Oggiefishier View Post
    and once again.. dual targeting is a decent mechanic for simplistic raids like wars.. in encounters that is actually complex its useless to anyone except the main tank healer.. how is that going to help you heal the entire 20 people taking raid wide damage? how will that help you heal the random person getting hit with the debuff..simple...it doesnt.. its a gimic for simplistic raids..and from what we have seen and been told this game wont be the simplistic raids of war or aion.

    mouseover healing however works wonders for the healers and buffers..regardless if they are healing the raid/the tank/the off tank/ or the kiter/or anyone else who needs it..
    Dual targeting does not mean you can't have any of this. It is an entirely separate thing entirely. Time and time again within this thread, I have had to respond to a post like this, and so it's finally time I put it in the OP:

    Mouse-over targeting is great, and I support it 100%. It has no effect on your current target, dual target, focus target, or ToT. How can you bring up examples of "crazy complicated" content, and then not know anything about the targeting system you're debating about?

    Please read through at least a few pages of the thread, get at least a basic grasp of the concept.

    Edit 3

    Possible Dev stance on the subject.

    Thanks to Slyde in this post we get an idea of where the Dev's currently stand on the subject with an interview:

    Quote Originally Posted by TTH
    Quote Originally Posted by TTH
    Ten Ton Hammer: To touch a little bit on the UI in terms of combat, do you have separate windows for hostile targets as opposed to friendly targets or targets-of-target?

    Cameron McNeil: There’s two parts to that question. A multi-target system is something that should be built into the core of the game’s combat system itself, with abilities and effects designed around having access to multiple targets. What that means though, generally, is that tends to lead to more complex combat systems. One of our goals is to ensure that Rift is very accessible to new players, and we feel that a multi-target system takes away from that accessibility. So it’s something that we’re not looking at right now.

    The second part of that dealing with target-of-target and focused targets; we certainly have that for the people who want it. We don’t feel that just adding an offensive and defensive target into the system itself is going to help players who are new to MMOGs.
    What does this mean for Dual Targeting?

    You need to support the idea! Send in feedback, respond to this thread with how you feel. Let them know that contrary to popular belief this concept isn't over your head, and you in fact will feel at a loss if it isn't included within the game.

    Not only will you feel at a loss, but we're actually not getting the full experience we could possibly have if it were included.

    Give us options, give us the ability to enable it.
    Last edited by StealthStalker; 02-11-2011 at 02:44 AM. Reason: updated w/ interview from Scott

    Don't forget to support Dual Targeting in SWTOR and Prime Online.
    We didn't get it here, but perhaps we can help make the next games into what they should be.

  2. #2
    Prophet of Telara StealthStalker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Posts
    1,050

    Default

    Due to the OP being too long, I'm adding additions to this post:

    Edit 4
    It's too late and the technical aspect makes it impossible to add Dual Targeting at this point

    I've seen this said a few times now, so here's my response to that (which I've also had to say a few times now):

    Quote Originally Posted by StealthStalker View Post
    I don't buy it at all if they opt to leave out all of the interesting mechanics. I'm not asking for a revamp of the souls and the way their abilities work, and that's the only thing that has an issue in the technical department.

    If they allow add-ons to automate the cast-modifier for focus targeting, I guarantee you an add-on dev could create a Faux dual target mod. If an add-on dev could do it, Trion could do it effortlessly.

    How a "Faux" dual target would work:

    Anytime I target a friendly target, it becomes my focus target. Always.
    Anytime I target an enemy target, it becomes my target. Always.

    Anytime I use an offensive ability, it is automatically used on my target.
    Anytime I use a defensive ability, it is automatically used on my Focus target. No modifier being pressed, because the add-on does it.

    There you have it, there's basic dual targeting. That's all I want, and all anyone wants. Changing mechanics is most definitely probably too late, and where the real technical issues come from. As much as I'd love to see all of those true life tap souls (chloromancer, Justicar, etc) really have an interesting and engaging mechanic like the DoK/Lifetap Heals from WAR, I'm okay with it being absent.

    What does this mean really? I give up true focus targeting, to have an always present dual target capability. Those who like the traditional targeting and want it, can simply keep it if they wish. I'll take my "limitations".

    This Dual Target "quick-fix" would be more than enough for the time being, for them to then further develop an actual true Dual Targeting system if they wish, that allows for dual targets and a focus target if they feel so inclined to have such a complicated system.

    So no, I don't buy the technically impossible argument, because it isn't.
    Too add something to the above quote: If a focus-cast modifier is added in to every ability manually with a /macro, though tedious... could probably eliminate the stigma of "automating" the focus-cast ability. Basically I'd want the add-on to do it, itself, but the thing is it's already possible to do with macros. The add-on would just eliminate the need for the user to create a separate macro for every single ability they use


    Edit 5
    Major issue with keybinds/focus targeting.

    This is not entirely solved by dual targeting (because it would still exist if you decide to use FT/ToT instead). It is however a primary reason for anyone using many, many modifiers to look toward Dual Targeting instead:
    Quote Originally Posted by Spoonster View Post
    The one extra key stroke isn't the biggest killer of all (for me anyway), it is losing access to 2/3 of my hot keys. If you are a player that binds any abilities to shift/ctrl/alt+ key press, you will definitely feel it. Here is the best I can do to explain:

    If you wish to take advantage of the Focus Frame targeting system, be ready for none of your shift/ctrl/alt bound abilities to be usable on your set Focus Target, unless you click it with the mouse.

    When setting up your cast on Focus Frame hot key in the UI menu, you are given only the choices of setting it to shift, ctrl, or alt. That already is taking away your binds from at least one key, but it gets better! Let's say you decide you can live without your 'alt' binds, so you set your cast on Focus Frame key to 'alt'. You have acquired your Focus Target and you need to cast/use one of your 'shift' or 'ctrl' bound abilities on it.

    You hold down 'alt' to direct the cast to your chosen Focus Target, which overrides any holding down of 'shift' or 'ctrl', firing the ability on the unmodified key. For example, you want to heal your Focus Target with an ability on 'shift+5', so you hold 'alt+shift+5' but it will only fire the ability on '5'.

    Does nobody else find this a problem? I know a lot of people bind a good portion of their abilities to shift/ctrl/alt type bindings.

    edit: There are workarounds for this. Making macros for your most clutch abilities to fire on your focus target by writing it into the macro instead of holding the modifier key will work, but should not be necessary and creates even more clutter on the bars.


    --------------------------------

    I'm also sure there's some others out there that can explain the situation more clearly, as I'm not the best at such things. There was quite an informative thread (couple of them really) on the beta boards, but there's no access to 'em currently, and since the NDA was lifted I think it's safe to take the discussion to a larger audience.

    Really, it boils down to giving us more options to choose from, and I don't see how that's a bad thing. How you choose to utilize the targeting system should be your prerogative.
    Last edited by StealthStalker; 01-18-2011 at 11:45 AM.

    Don't forget to support Dual Targeting in SWTOR and Prime Online.
    We didn't get it here, but perhaps we can help make the next games into what they should be.

  3. #3
    Plane Walker
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Posts
    432

    Default

    /concur


    Why wouldn't you give this option, is the question.

  4. #4
    Telaran cattlekiller's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    hussville
    Posts
    67

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Zorus View Post
    /concur


    Why wouldn't you give this option, is the question.
    100% Agreed

  5. #5
    Shadowlander Kwonjah's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Posts
    41

    Default

    That would be pretty nice especially for clerics

  6. #6
    Prophet of Telara StealthStalker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Posts
    1,050

    Default

    I think healers really do benefit the most, but everyone can utilize it. Some of the Souls that utilize many buff shears/cleanses will also benefit greatly.

    Even if you play a dps specific class, just targeting someone and knowing where they are based on the target ring/arrow/reticule can help out immensely in the heat of battle.

    Don't forget to support Dual Targeting in SWTOR and Prime Online.
    We didn't get it here, but perhaps we can help make the next games into what they should be.

  7. #7
    Soulwalker Sethmanrx's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Pa
    Posts
    10

    Default

    100% agree we need a dual targeting system. Offensive target and a defensive target.
    Being shoehorned into a single targeting system makes it really frustrating when it comes to healing/buffing/debuffing, etc.
    Please implement a dual targetting system!
    Last edited by Sethmanrx; 01-02-2011 at 09:27 PM.

  8. #8
    Rift Disciple Yogifour's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Flo-rida.
    Posts
    129

    Default

    Hell, if we can have AoE looting, we should have Dual Targeting.
    “Don’t ask what the world needs. Ask what makes you come alive, and go do it. Because what the world needs is people who have come alive.” -Howard Thurman

  9. #9
    Plane Walker Sardoni's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Long Beach, MS
    Posts
    341

    Default

    Settings > Interface > Combat > "Target through your Target" checkbox.

    It enables you to target your tank and cast heals/shields/sparkley benefits... then if you queue up an attack it attacks the target of the tank (the target of your target) meaning... -gasp- NO AGGRO because you're attacking what the tank is already beating on.

    Same concept... more intelligent design imo.

    Dual targeting in situation of baby sitting your CC, on the other hand, does NOT currently have a... convenient interface setting.

    Posing this suggestion as a way to better gauge your CC target might fall on more receptive review than something to help healers DPS and heal at the same time. There's already a reasonable accommodation for that. =)

    <Black Serpent>
    Sardoni
    Guardian - Mage - Lotham PVP

  10. #10
    Rift Master Calibix's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Near Green Bay, Wisconsin
    Posts
    490

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Yogifour View Post
    Hell, if we can have AoE looting, we should have Dual Targeting.
    AoE looting is like the greastest overlooked advancement in MMO history. Why it wasn't around sooner is beyond me, lol.

  11. #11
    Ascendant
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Atlanta, GA
    Posts
    1,442

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by tro44 View Post
    you wouldnt add Dual Targeting to a game that already has it.

    which Rift does.
    The OP addresses his issue with focus targeting.
    www.maximation.us
    #1 Guardian raiding guild. Check us out if you think you have what it takes!

    -Opi & Opii @ Shatterbone

  12. #12
    Ascendant tro44's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Posts
    3,000

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Zorus View Post
    /concur


    Why wouldn't you give this option, is the question.
    you wouldnt add Dual Targeting to a game that already has it.

    which Rift does.

  13. #13
    Prophet of Telara StealthStalker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Posts
    1,050

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Sardoni View Post
    Settings > Interface > Combat > "Target through your Target" checkbox.

    It enables you to target your tank and cast heals/shields/sparkley benefits... then if you queue up an attack it attacks the target of the tank (the target of your target) meaning... -gasp- NO AGGRO because you're attacking what the tank is already beating on.

    Same concept... more intelligent design imo.

    Dual targeting in situation of baby sitting your CC, on the other hand, does NOT currently have a... convenient interface setting.

    Posing this suggestion as a way to better gauge your CC target might fall on more receptive review than something to help healers DPS and heal at the same time. There's already a reasonable accommodation for that. =)
    This isn't so much about healers being able to DPS at the same time, as it is for them to use their CC at the same time, detaunt (which is HUGE, and a must have), on various targets that their friendly target is not attacking or engaging. In my Video you can see me (if you knew what to look for) CC multiple targets, and detaunt when needed.

    This isn't so much about babysitting CC, because you should be able to do that if you're good or not regardless of your targeting system, as it is to be as efficient as possible in PvP. Focus targeting and Target of Target doesn't allow that, Dual targeting does.

    I also clearly stated if you want to continue using your method, have at it, but please give me access to mine.

    This is mostly for those of us that PvP, I know the PvE'ers are perfectly content with ToT and Focus target, it just doesn't cut it for PvP.

    Also, to address the 'attacking the target the tank is attacking' statement, in the Beta thread someone (a tank) pointed out why this isn't always a good thing. Your tank could be attempting to hold aggro on multiple targets, and if you're always attacking what he is you could in theoretically just screw up his aggro in general.

    I'm pretty much against anything that automates something in the game to the point that it doesn't require an active thought on my part. ToT is one of those things, but again I mainly look at this from a PvP'ers standpoint, and not PvE.

    Quote Originally Posted by tro44 View Post
    you wouldnt add Dual Targeting to a game that already has it.

    which Rift does.
    Obviously you haven't read any of the thread. Thanks for the bump, though.
    Last edited by StealthStalker; 01-02-2011 at 09:59 PM.

    Don't forget to support Dual Targeting in SWTOR and Prime Online.
    We didn't get it here, but perhaps we can help make the next games into what they should be.

  14. #14
    Prophet of Telara StealthStalker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Posts
    1,050

    Default

    All of that said, I can't figure out why a dual targeting system can't exist next to the Focus target and ToT.
    Last edited by StealthStalker; 01-02-2011 at 10:03 PM.

    Don't forget to support Dual Targeting in SWTOR and Prime Online.
    We didn't get it here, but perhaps we can help make the next games into what they should be.

  15. #15
    Plane Walker Sardoni's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Long Beach, MS
    Posts
    341

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by StealthStalker View Post
    All of that said, I can't figure out why a dual targeting system can't exist next to the Focus target and ToT.
    I'm not used to it. It's a new concept to me.

    Quid pro quo: why must this game implement something you're used to just because you want it?

    I'm not saying it wouldn't be beneficial. Heck it would be! But I don't recall needing something like that in AOC... or WAR... or Aion... (which are the stomping grounds as of late I've played over the last... 3 years now). I was a healer... and I didn't find myself ineffective in PVE or PVP in any of the aforementioned game without dual targeting.

    Depending on the intensity of the PVP fighting in the aforementioned three games my focus was on bars watching peoples health... dispeling CC... healing... covering my own butt. I could be a multi tasker and stun a little here... dps a little there, but I found my services best used focusing on healing/dispelling to which I wouldn't need a dps target in that regard.

    Ce la vie. Probably wouldn't be impossible for them to implement it. Might not be unforeseen for them to already have plans putting it in... /shrug

    <Black Serpent>
    Sardoni
    Guardian - Mage - Lotham PVP

+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 58 1 2 3 4 5 11 51 ... LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts