5 soul limit

[Eoblaed]

Right, and that's the beauty of having access to all 8 souls. You can have a role that fills that function in a raid, and then once the raid is over you can switch back to the role you actually want to play. Instead of being stuck with a character that is built for nothing but raiding, and sucks at everything else.

This response is made of win.

[AngryPitbull]

Of course. Tailoring your character however you want and presence/lack of optimal builds are two totally different things.

Every game ever made, and likely any game ever to be made, will have optimal builds. No changes will get rid of that.

Since optimal builds will always be a part of any game we play, the only thing accomplished by introducing arbitrary limits is just that: introducing arbitrary limits.

Yes, but some people in this thread seem to believe that they will be happily switching roles, and being effective in that role, at will. And I just don't think so.

Will the game mechanics allow it? Probably. But as I said above, I suspect that the players themselves will start putting in the restrictions if the game does not have them. So yeah, you may be able to technically do what you want, but it won't be feasible.

We both know we are going to be seeing (for example) ... "Dungeon group looking for healer. Must have minimum 32 points in Warden and 20 in Purifier .. send tell if qualified"

[Corwynn_Maelstrom]

I seamlessly switched roles a half dozen times in a run through IT. I went between DPS and healing as needed, and it helped us survive tougher fights having two healers.

What's more likely to happen is groups will want to know that they've got some flexibility rather than being sure some specific number of points are spent somewhere.

[Eoblaed]

We both know we are going to be seeing (for example) ... "Dungeon group looking for healer. Must have minimum 32 points in Warden and 20 in Purifier .. send tell if qualified"

Sure. And as -shiva- pointed out above, you can have that build. And have others that fit your preferred playstyle when you're soloing, or running with your guild or whatever.

Love it.

[Eoblaed]

We both know we are going to be seeing (for example) ... "Dungeon group looking for healer. Must have minimum 32 points in Warden and 20 in Purifier .. send tell if qualified"

I should also mention that I probably wouldn't run with a group that felt they could only succeed with one type of healing build anyway... but that's a different topic of discussion. ;)

[Kedwyn]

I disagree completely. Challenge makes a game. You cannot have a game without a challenge. Of course for some, it might not be challenging enough, but challenges are what define the game.

That frustration you talk about is an emotional response. Thats the key element to immersion. If a game can affect you as the player, it means on some level you are actually interested in the outcome of the game. It is the ultimate form of interaction.

I completely agree that the best games elicit an emotional response but I disagree that challenge is the only means to do that. Now I also agree with challenge being a good motivator if its appropriately leveled for the player. When I said challenge = frustrattion what I meant was the SAME challange that might be perfect for a hard-core gamer (i.e. vanilla wow raiding) was not the sweet spot for a more casual gamer and therefore the game is not designed for them

The trick is to find the balance between boredom (lack of challenge) and no skills required and that of anxiety and too much skills required. You have to be in the middle and know how to have both.
As skills escalate as you progress, the challenges have to also escalate and progress.

I 100% agree with this. Where i think we disagree is where that sweet spot is...or maybe who we think the 'majority' player is nowadays.

Look not to put down your wife or anything, but it is sad when a game is designed around those who are easily frustrated by any form of challenge, aka the weakest link, and not for the happy medium of both. What it says is the minority affects the majority. Games as a hobby are not for everyone, and sadly we face an era of entitlement. Dont get me wrong, I want everyone to be able to enjoy this great form of entertainment, but when players begin feeling entitled to every single game out on the market, and that it has to fit their needs rather than stay true to good design principles, then sadly everyone loses.

And not to put you down for not puting down my wife or anything...but what makes you think my wife doesn't represent the majority gamer in today's market? because I think she does. I know and meet more 'gamers' with her preferences then my own. I think the 'sad' sense of entitlement that exists today is the old-school gamer claiming a game is not designed well if it caters to the 'lowest' common demonitor if that group of people happens to be the majority. I think aiming for the MAJORITY of players is the fairest (and best) game design. Like you yourself said: games as a hobby are not for everyone...but maybe in today's market the person they aren't meant for is the gamer who wants too much challenge by today's standards...not the gamer who gets too frustrated in a game built from yesterday's standards.

We dont exactly live in a fair world after all. Single player games offer different game states which go from easy to hard, mmorpgs however have to have a constant level of difficulty. They are not for everyone. Knowing which genre and which set of challenges that are part of that genre is important to know what kind of audience you belong in.

100% agree. If MMO's cant be for everyone then at least make them for the majority of the players who enjoy the genre. And like it or not the majority player is becoming more casual year by year, wanting less time sinks then in years past, and wanting different (and arguebly less) challenges then they did in the past. What I dont agee with is your comments about the genre dictating things and players should self select themselves away from the genre if 'its not for them' (I think thats what your saying)

One of the nice things about vanilla WoW was that they did cater to every audience but that didnt mean every bit of content was catered to everyone. It meant there was a bit of something for everyone. If I couldnt spend the time doing a 40 man 5 hour raid when Molten Core was still unbeaten, then why should I ever expect the same rewards. Some people will actually spend an entire day coming up with strategies and means to beat highly challenging scenarios. IF they win because of that, all the more power to them. I wont demand blizzard make it easier for me so I could do it too. Thats just stupid. Its entitlement and it hurts the game. Instead of finding the slice of pie thats right for the player, the player then expects the whole pie is just for them. Its the wrong mentality.

Why are you making the leap and assuming a more casual player that wants the game to be easier is actually EXPECTING it to be. The dont make 'demands' any more then the more -hard-core' player does. There is no more or less sense of entitlment from either side, its just feedback in both cases.

But if a 'casual' player tries out an MMO...and they are like 'wow - this is really cool, look at all the stuff I can do, I love this game...I'm going to play more of it"...and then later "holy crap I can kill DRAGONS in this game - that sounds awesome - I gotta try that...oh - i gotta join this guild to get that done...ok I'll do that...wait I gotta stop playing with my other friends because this new guild has rules...um...ok fine I'll do that cuz killing that dragon sure sounds cool...um wait...now your saying i gotta go on this website and read all this stuff..er...ok fine let me go do that...oh wait...I'm the wrong class you say...ok fine I'll just do whatever you tell me so I can go kill this dragon...or you know what...on second thought this isn't sounding fun to me anymore...this game maybe isn't for me like I thought it was...I'll go do play something else now"

The vast majority of casual gamers never get on a website, they never post in the forums, they never complain to the developer, they never express a single word of 'entitlement' or make a single demand and they will very meakly and humbly 'go play something else' if they dont like the game. But...there are millions of them...tens of millions of them just within the MMO genre. So if as a developer you want those players to play your game and not someone elses, you as the developer make the choice to cater to them as the majority and make the game easier so they play your game...

There is no evil sense of entitlement at work here...there are no demands being made (not at the scale that would actually influence developers).

What I said was that I would find it more balanced if a player had 4 souls they could use and If they wanted to try out a different build, they could lose a soul in order to gain another one. In otherwords, not have all the souls on their person ALL AT ONCE, but one for the other. I also think souls should be found, not magically acquired through talking to NPCs and quests. Want a druid soul? well the player should hunt fae creatures in order to find one as an item drop. I would rather treat them like socketable items from Diablo where resource management becomes part of the challenge. I also think 4 roles is way too much. You dont need all 4 roles, 2 is fine. 60% of the trees are DPS and you get 3 at any one time.

I readily admit I never read this entire thread nor even tracked down all your posts in it and that definately leaves room to misinterpret any single one of your posts and I appologize if that measn I came to any incorrect conclusions. Doing all that would just raise the 'challenge' factor to the point where my 'emotional' response is no longer an enjoyable one for participating in this dialog.

What I think your saying is you also (like me) want any single toon to have access to all 8 souls (or however many actaully exist) but just not ever all at the same time...and that may be all that we disagree on (for this topic). I see nothing negative for having 4 config choices instead of 2...or allowing each of the configurations to include any of the 8 souls rather then just 4 of the souls for all your configurations

because that becomes the difference between: "hey baby (my wife), lets go play some Rift together..."ya sure that sounds like fun"..."oh look bob and susan and billy are online...sweet...I love playing with those guys...lets go hit an instance....oh shoot...we need a healer...none of us have a healer config loaded right now...well i dont mind healing...just give me 4 hours to go do the quest to let me switch out my configuration and I'll be gtg...well jeez I dunno if its worth waiting 4 hours for that...I know...why dont we just NOT PLAY WITH YOU and instead we'll go play with this stranger cuz he's a healer...sorry, maybe next time we'll get to all play together..."

Avoiding that scenerio is exactly why I'm excited about Rifts soul system and why I dont want ot see it limited in terms of freedom and flexibility. To solve that same problem in WoW I, and my wife, any my friends all have a bunch of L80's (or soon a bunch of L85's) and we keep them all leveled and geared so that we actually play together more often and still all do different things in the game. Its become a chore maintaining that many just to allow me to choose who I play with based on the player rather then their toon

[AngryPitbull]

I seamlessly switched roles a half dozen times in a run through IT. I went between DPS and healing as needed, and it helped us survive tougher fights having two healers.

What's more likely to happen is groups will want to know that they've got some flexibility rather than being sure some specific number of points are spent somewhere.

Yes, this can be done at level 20. But will you still be able to do it at level 50? Or will you also be switching all your gear into your "healing suit"?

Come on man. You've obviously been playing MMO's for awhile. You honestly believe that people will not be requiring certain souls who have specific abilities to complete content? I think your giving people too much credit, and looking at it through rose colored glasses.

Already I have been told that Archon is absolutely required to down some endgame bosses due to their unique debuffs.

[Eoblaed]

Already I have been told that Archon is absolutely required to down some endgame bosses due to their unique debuffs.

Since none of us (?) have been anywhere near endgame, that's a bold leap to make. Maybe some have on the alpha server, I have no idea (not having access to alpha, I have no idea what they have exposure to or don't). Let's assume the requirement of Archon is spot on and that it's an absolute necessity to take down some of the endgame bosses.

That still suggests no benefit to denying us access to the full range of souls. In fact, it indicates an even greater benefit to having all of them so you can have your uber-raid build and your not-raid builds.

[Demisoto]

I say no limit. If some people want to set limits for their guild, then so be it. But Trion shouldn't limit everyone because some people might want them.

Its like the difference between Federal Law and State Law. Federal Law is usually more broad and allows for more "wiggle room" whereas state laws are usually more controversial and specific. Let the Guilds/Parties make their own specific laws while Trion can remain broad to make everyone happy.

[-Shiva-]

Yes, this can be done at level 20. But will you still be able to do it at level 50? Or will you also be switching all your gear into your "healing suit"?

Come on man. You've obviously been playing MMO's for awhile. You honestly believe that people will not be requiring certain souls who have specific abilities to complete content? I think your giving people too much credit, and looking at it through rose colored glasses.

Already I have been told that Archon is absolutely required to down some endgame bosses due to their unique debuffs.

I positively believe that people will be requiring certain souls if you want to run with them, which is why I think having access to all 8 is a brilliant move by Trion. Even more so if it's believed that the Archon soul is a supposed absolute requirement for some endgame bosses. As someone whose main is a Mage, if the game were limited to 5 souls, suddenly one MUST be Archon or I'm considered a subpar noob, and thats limiting choices that will affect the decision of any new Mage before they even get out of chargen.

And another thing about this system I've just considered is that it will give meaning to doing the same raids over and over again. Previously when you raid in other MMOs, once you've completely outfitted your character there is very little incentive to do them again, except to help out Friends/Guildmates. Now though, even if my Archon has been completely outfitted, I can go and raid and try to get gear that will go well with my Pyromancer spec, even if I never-ever use Pyromancy in any of the raids I'm part of.

The more I think about this, the more I like what Trion have done, and I don't see how having access to all the souls your calling has will make the game ezymode full of FotM, and cookie cutter builds.

[Corwynn_Maelstrom]

Yes, this can be done at level 20. But will you still be able to do it at level 50? Or will you also be switching all your gear into your "healing suit"?

Unknown how gear will work. At this time it is possible to gearswitch via a macro.

Come on man. You've obviously been playing MMO's for awhile. You honestly believe that people will not be requiring certain souls who have specific abilities to complete content? I think your giving people too much credit, and looking at it through rose colored glasses.

No, I just play better than most people so never have issues with succeeding. If something makes content easier there's generally 100 other things that can still complete the content . . .

[Aegnor]

I think without any limitation soul system might hurt customisation(everyone doing everything..)

Personal opinion,no need someone to quote and try to explain how wrong I am..

[Corwynn_Maelstrom]

I think without any limitation soul system might hurt customisation(everyone doing everything..)

Personal opinion,no need someone to quote and try to explain how wrong I am..

But what if we really enjoy doing it?

[Aegnor]

But what if we really enjoy doing it?

Then I guess you can quote and tell me how wrong I am

[Cirric]

Let me just add my vote of NO to limiting the number of souls you can have access to. My reasoning? Why limit choices, choices are good!