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Thread: Raid content / Raid Size

  1. #16
    Shadowlander Eilbeck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Meson View Post
    I personally feel 20-25 is the biggest needed in reality. Not too hard to put together, a good number of people and of course enjoyable
    This!

    When AQ40 was being raided (WoW) it would take too long to set up, and people would argue and forget what to do in fights etc!
    Frustrating for the rest of us!

    Though this could be a server population related issue.

    Anyway, 25mans all the way! Especially to start with atleast.
    GET TO THE CHOPPA!!!

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  2. #17
    Rift Disciple Meson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eilbeck View Post
    This!

    When AQ40 was being raided (WoW) it would take too long to set up, and people would argue and forget what to do in fights etc!
    Frustrating for the rest of us!

    Though this could be a server population related issue.

    Anyway, 25mans all the way! Especially to start with atleast.
    And of those 40 you had about 25 afk

  3. #18
    Shadowlander Eilbeck's Avatar
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    Exactly! It was bloody annoying to say the least!
    GET TO THE CHOPPA!!!

    SNOOKS, JUDDERMAN, EILBECK

  4. #19
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    AQ40 was the last time I had fun raiding in wow. Getting that many people together and moving towards one goal is a strategic challenge that you just donít get with a 20 man. However itís a big roadblock for the more casual players that just canít get that many people in the same place at the same time and actually know what to do for each encounter.

    It's just something about needing that many people working together that gives it that epic feel.

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  5. #20
    Plane Walker Evereghalo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Liziana View Post
    Sheesh, get your facts right just once? The raid size was a quote from a Dev, it is not "almost total speculation".
    They said there would be something in terms how rifts would work as raid or PvP

    they gave no further details, that I have found.

    and odds are they are testing EVERYTHING with different variables to see what is right,

    so it WOULD be speculation about how RIFTs would work. NOT THE SIZE OF RAIDS, SEE THE PAGE BREAK.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalbuir View Post
    There will be 10 and 20 man raids, no point in dicussing it at this point anymore.

    Regards,
    Kalbuir
    1) Can I get a link, apparently if it has been set in stone, I did not see and how can I be faulted for that, and just saying "That would be an awesome discussion"

    2) The game is in Alpha,
    a) Nothing is set in stone, look at WoW
    b) No discussion is not worth having if say an over whelming amount of people want them bigger
    c) Therefore anything can be changed.
    Last edited by Evereghalo; 07-10-2010 at 06:35 AM.

  6. #21
    Ascendant Liziana's Avatar
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    It must be in one of the irc logs...here's the link to a mention.

    http://forums.riftgame.com/showthrea...ll=1#post25762

    ....and the question and answer.

    Q: (From Krassus on our site) Have they discussed raiding size or difficulty ? What is their target raid size(s) and will they have difficult raids for people who are looking for more execution heavy raiding encounters
    A: There will be instances at end-game with different sizes. 5, 10 and 20. There will also be "Heroic" style difficulty settings.



    I repeat what you said: "Making everything everyone says about this almost total speculation." One sentence, with a quote of the OP. You then go on to mention totally different raid sizes for discussion, which leads people to believe that my quote is "total speculation". If you were referencing just one part of the OP, then state that, as we really aren't privy to what's going on in your head.
    Last edited by Liziana; 07-10-2010 at 07:17 AM.
    If you say plz instead of please, I say no because it's shorter than yes.

  7. #22
    Plane Walker Evereghalo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Liziana View Post
    It must be in one of the irc logs...here's the link to a mention.

    http://forums.riftgame.com/showthrea...ll=1#post25762

    ....and the question and answer.

    Q: (From Krassus on our site) Have they discussed raiding size or difficulty ? What is their target raid size(s) and will they have difficult raids for people who are looking for more execution heavy raiding encounters
    A: There will be instances at end-game with different sizes. 5, 10 and 20. There will also be "Heroic" style difficulty settings.
    The heroic setting was always going to exist in 5mans,

    But Like I said enough outcry can change it.

    I think if they are going to model wow it should be 25. The devs are not going to be oblivious to what people want.

    Especially if some people want 40 mans.

    And lastly beta can change everything.

  8. #23
    Ascendant Liziana's Avatar
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    Hopefully they have no intention of "modelling WoW"...Rift is Rift, 5, 10 and 20 make perfect sense.
    I'm also not sure why you would require and "outcry" to change the heroic difficulty of all 3 sizes? A discussion could be interesting on this.
    Regarding 40 man raids, I wouldn't think 25 was the obvious step to 40, but 5, 10, 20, 40 is fairly logical.
    Beta can change a lot of things indeed, but that's not what was asked.
    If you say plz instead of please, I say no because it's shorter than yes.

  9. #24
    Plane Walker Evereghalo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Liziana View Post
    Hopefully they have no intention of "modelling WoW"...Rift is Rift, 5, 10 and 20 make perfect sense.
    I'm also not sure why you would require and "outcry" to change the heroic difficulty of all 3 sizes? A discussion could be interesting on this.
    Regarding 40 man raids, I wouldn't think 25 was the obvious step to 40, but 5, 10, 20, 40 is fairly logical.
    Beta can change a lot of things indeed, but that's not what was asked.
    I don't want them to either, which is why discussions will help.

    WoW's new model is what is making raiders hate it, its part of the reason why I quit.

    1) Said 25 because if your going to follow WoW's model you might as well copy it exactly, it was 25. And 20 people is not at all really hard to manage for raiding, there is no challenge.

    2) I didn't say to change the heroic difficulty, I was talking about changing raid size.

    Hardcore pre BC raiders dont like WoW's new raiding model it has given devs nightmares in terms of tuneing. and they always end up nerfing the hell out of the content. So people that do not like it should speak up.

    Make 10 man instances but that is not raid content, that is you with a group of friends and maybe a couple of pugs.

    Real instances raid content needs to be 25 to 40 people. (I am not talking about open PvE - Rift based raids).

    However, if they DO do it, then there should be 1 lock-out,

    Because 3 nights of 25man, and 2 nights of 10man (progression) was just rough.

    And then having Heroic Mode, like in the Crusader's Coliseum making 4 raid lock outs was just also so painful.

    Now,

    IMO if you do make 10 man dungeons maybe make them different instances like how TK and SSC were done. Where there are a lot of instances maybe make 1 a 10man, 1 or 2 a 5man, and then 1 a 25man. And somewhere with each tier maybe have an instanced 40man where it is one Boss and just a little bit of trash like an Onyxia style fight.
    Last edited by Evereghalo; 07-10-2010 at 07:42 AM.

  10. #25
    Sword of Telara Sifer's Avatar
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    While I agree that the idea of big 40 man or more Raids seems epic an cool. When you actually play it....well it kind of blows. Like others said its a pain to get that many people together an get them to focus an do what they are supposed to. If you ever stop to take a break that's pretty much it. People get fragmented an leaving an going to the bathroom an then you have part of the people AFK or not paying attention an you wipe an it takes 30 minutes to freaking recover. It's just terrible gameplay unless your in one of the few All Star Raid guilds that don't accept any **** from their members. But then that's stressful in itself having to meet such requirements.

    Personally I agree with setting it more around 20 for general instance Raids. 40 or more can work for overworld Raids an special events. Which I hope happen often as part of the dynamic content. Overworld Raids can perhaps be set up like Rifts where anyone can participate an be rewarded for their help.

  11. #26
    Ascendant Europe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sifer View Post
    While I agree that the idea of big 40 man or more Raids seems epic an cool. When you actually play it....well it kind of blows. Like others said its a pain to get that many people together an get them to focus an do what they are supposed to. If you ever stop to take a break that's pretty much it. People get fragmented an leaving an going to the bathroom an then you have part of the people AFK or not paying attention an you wipe an it takes 30 minutes to freaking recover. It's just terrible gameplay unless your in one of the few All Star Raid guilds that don't accept any **** from their members. But then that's stressful in itself having to meet such requirements.

    Personally I agree with setting it more around 20 for general instance Raids. 40 or more can work for overworld Raids an special events. Which I hope happen often as part of the dynamic content. Overworld Raids can perhaps be set up like Rifts where anyone can participate an be rewarded for their help.
    I'd rather have 20 than 40. 40 man raids allow for too much dead weight. I'd rather have encounters that require the 20 skilled players from your average 40 man raid and leave the rest to do normal mode.
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  12. #27
    Plane Walker Evereghalo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sifer View Post
    While I agree that the idea of big 40 man or more Raids seems epic an cool. When you actually play it....well it kind of blows. Like others said its a pain to get that many people together an get them to focus an do what they are supposed to. If you ever stop to take a break that's pretty much it. People get fragmented an leaving an going to the bathroom an then you have part of the people AFK or not paying attention an you wipe an it takes 30 minutes to freaking recover. It's just terrible gameplay unless your in one of the few All Star Raid guilds that don't accept any **** from their members. But then that's stressful in itself having to meet such requirements.

    Personally I agree with setting it more around 20 for general instance Raids. 40 or more can work for overworld Raids an special events. Which I hope happen often as part of the dynamic content. Overworld Raids can perhaps be set up like Rifts where anyone can participate an be rewarded for their help.
    Which is why I said 1 40 man raid boss that is instanced.

    I support 25, because managing 20 people is not that hard in terms of raiding.

    And having two modes for raid (not dungeon) content is silly, what they should do is like in ulduar where if you do something special in the encounter you get extra loot.

    SImply put 1 raid lock out period, not 2.
    Last edited by Evereghalo; 07-10-2010 at 09:20 AM.

  13. #28
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    20 is more logical than 25, and easier to balance. Double the people = double loot. You can effectively double the requirements. If this raid requires 20k DPS, the 20 man can require 40K. It can require double the tanks, double the healers etc. Instead of even more overstacking of DPS. Just because WoW did something, and a game is using something similar does not mean it needs to be copied exactly. For instance WoW copied EQ1 (or AoC etc, I dont know what those games had) for group size. But they changed it just slightly to 5.

    As to other points 10 man is a raid. You get a raid window when you make it. That is a fact. You may not consider it much of a raid, but it is 1. Also, yes alot of hardcore raiders hate the size of raids lately, and loved the 40 man raids. But I would say, and Blizzard has said that way way more people love the change they made and it has allowed alot of people to raid that normally wouldnt.

    I am in agreement about lockouts. 1 lockout per zone period. Killing JoeBob the raid mob 4 times a week, once on 10 and 20 man normal, and once on 10 and 20 man heroic mode is just bad imo.

  14. #29
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    Oh and 1 last thing. All raid content should be doable in all raid sizes. Having instanced content be 20 man and overland be 40 is a bad idea. You don't want to have to have a 40 man guild to do Overland content, yet have to split up to do instanced stuff. Leads to issues. You should be able to have a 10 man guild, a 20 man guild, or a 40 man guild and experience all of the raid content without need of alliances or splitting raids etc. (this being if they added 40 man versions of course).

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Calsedon View Post
    20 is more logical than 25, and easier to balance. Double the people = double loot. You can effectively double the requirements. If this raid requires 20k DPS, the 20 man can require 40K. It can require double the tanks, double the healers etc. Instead of even more overstacking of DPS. Just because WoW did something, and a game is using something similar does not mean it needs to be copied exactly. For instance WoW copied EQ1 (or AoC etc, I dont know what those games had) for group size. But they changed it just slightly to 5.

    As to other points 10 man is a raid. You get a raid window when you make it. That is a fact. You may not consider it much of a raid, but it is 1. Also, yes alot of hardcore raiders hate the size of raids lately, and loved the 40 man raids. But I would say, and Blizzard has said that way way more people love the change they made and it has allowed alot of people to raid that normally wouldnt.

    I am in agreement about lockouts. 1 lockout per zone period. Killing JoeBob the raid mob 4 times a week, once on 10 and 20 man normal, and once on 10 and 20 man heroic mode is just bad imo.
    No, that is not true.

    There is no direct 1 per 1 with items.

    A 20man is going to be more complex than a ten man, the bosses are gonna have more HP and the damage to the raid is going to be bigger, and it is not going to be double. Y

    You can not just double the number of items because the content was harder (and it makes people demand more content sooner because they are then BiS geared), and you can not just then double the stats because they would blow it out of proportion.

    If you have several tiers you have to use hidden item levels to ensure that stats are proportioned well and an item does not get over budgeted. So there is no difference harder or easier difference between the 2, one just is recalculated (which is already done by a computer) with a slightly higher item level.

    And the greater the difference between the 2 levels given they do a 10 and 20/25 man versions the better the gear can be and the more difficult they can make between the two levels.

    And if they are going to copy every dungeon and make it where there are 4 types of raids or lock outs, then they might as well create a 40man version to so people that want to be in a massive guild can get what they want.

    Quote Originally Posted by Calsedon View Post
    Oh and 1 last thing. All raid content should be doable in all raid sizes. Having instanced content be 20 man and overland be 40 is a bad idea. You don't want to have to have a 40 man guild to do Overland content, yet have to split up to do instanced stuff. Leads to issues. You should be able to have a 10 man guild, a 20 man guild, or a 40 man guild and experience all of the raid content without need of alliances or splitting raids etc. (this being if they added 40 man versions of course).
    Then I would say stick with WoW,

    Copying WoW's raid style exactly would be very bad, this everyone experiences content stuff has made WoW's raiding as almost trivial, and made gear practically worthless. To the point where devs in WoW are saying yea gear doesn't feel epic anymore and they are working on it. It would be a serious miss for Rift to copy that style of WoW, and WoW to only fix it in their next expansion.
    Last edited by Evereghalo; 07-10-2010 at 09:49 AM.

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