Learn how to play the game as is. Feel your group out and adjust accordingly. A group or raid leader can track everything they need to with the tools that are already provided to them by the game. The other half of that is skill and the ability to adapt on the fly.
So what your saying is that you should be able to keep an eye on 25 players and then determine woes lacking dps ? We all know thats quite hard, if not impossible.
Originally Posted by MJ467
What? Your screen is right in front of you with all your information. Your not exerting yourself physically, you probably have on headphones so no distraction there, so how it is hard. If I asked you to chew gum, walk and talk at the same time you would probably run smack dab into the wall.
Originally Posted by Modum
Exactly, games do advance but the direction they are going is the wrong direction.
Originally Posted by Hackiedoodle
My quarrel is not with you, Hackiedoodle, or anyone else that parses.
I think it is going down the wrong direction for this very reason.
Running through a PUG I thought we had a nice group makeup and everything would go smoothly. That is until we got about two rooms into the dungeon when I found out we had an incredibly pompous and obnoxious Rogue and a couple more rooms in he started to make fun of the Warlock for not keeping up to his DPS. He was relentless on this Warlock,and kept posting his meter all throughout.
The boss fight had started and the Rogue refused to step out of the gas clouds and soon died. We looted the boss and I stated in party chat "Atleast you were alive to contribute to the fight Warlock." I quickly posted my own DPS meter that I had been running to show that the Warlock had surpassed the Rogue's DPS and Total Damage and left the group.
I did use meters simply for convienence, but it is nothing I couldn't do through parsing.
The people that use Meters tend to go hand in hand with the Gearscore crowd.
Both of which are utterly ridiculous and flawed.
What good is your DPS if you need to be carried because all you care about is that number and not the greater picture?
What good is your gearscore if you can't take your eyes off the DPS meter to move out of the fire?
You don't need an addon to tell you that someone isn't doing what they are suppose to do. It's quite obvious.
Telling someone what to do doesn't make them a good player. All you are doing is effectively carrying them and raising their gearscore over people who could do it and think for themselves.
Originally Posted by Kuldorn
Remember the required mods to raid in World of Warcraft? It was a damage meter, boss mods and other things to give you warnings.
Originally Posted by Huhn
If you need an addon to tell you to move out of the fire because you don't know to do that yourself, you are a wasted spot. Why should I take someone that needs that over someone who I don't have to watch over for every new encounter?
And last but not least, it discourages hybrid and support classes by making them think that they cannot compete instead of having fun on the class that they enjoy.
Very constructive thread.
no one is looking at this from a healer stand point.
if i can see that someone that is not a tank is about to pull aggro, i can cast a HoT on them in case, or a shield or something to be prepared. If i see that I may pull healing aggro, i can always drop it. these things are important to notice BEFORE a party member get's one shot by a boss that only the tank can take a hit from.
I don't know how to work around these circumstance in Rift yet because i haven't had a chance to raid in Rift, but i'm sure that they have taken this into consideration....
at least i hope so.
Originally Posted by Auroran
I think every view point has been addressed. You add a valid one, however if you read through the entire thread you'll notice that there is a very distinct pro and con arguement going on.
I'll just reiterate my point in a simplified manner, without meters:
If you die, deal with it, dust off, learn not to pull aggro. If someone else dies, their bad. End of story, it's not the end of the world and pushes you to better yourself without having it spoon fed to you.
If you want it spoon fed, simplified and rendered almost brainless/braindead, I am sure you can buy a Chinese bot program which will actually play the game for you, meaning little to no involvement or thought from yourself. Better?
In all seriousness though, when will you, and others, realise that the push to simplify games is actually turning us all into cattle who are becoming more and more distant with the people we play with and more hell bent on getting pixels for no work. Where's the joy in it being so simple? Did sense of achievement, self worth and pride simply go away overnight?
I don't get it.
Any encounter scripted so that it cannot be beaten without the use of addons is a failure IMO.
Originally Posted by MushroomTat
In point of fact I seriously doubt such a thing exists in any game.
Originally Posted by Vegetta
Originally Posted by Corwynn_Maelstrom
Look at how WoW has progressed.
Tell me you could do Yogg 0-Watcher (before all the nerfs and ICC) for example without Vent or DBM?
Vent in itself is an addon in my opinion.
Last edited by Drusillus; 12-09-2010 at 09:47 AM.
The problem is that evaluating DPS gives an artificial delineation between Rogue A and Rogue B. If they both join in, play nicely with others, and contribute to the team's success, why do you need to know that Rogue A had 7% more DPS output than Rogue B? Why should Rogue A get preferred invites to all raiding when Rogue B does an excellent, though not the 'best', job?
Originally Posted by Haeso
This is supposed to be a game, not some multinational corporation squeezing every little bit it can into the bottom line. It's supposed to be people having fun together, not some mathematical min/max nightmare.
And what if Rogue A is a bit of a pain in the butt? The guy that everyone rolls their eyes at as he fills the chat with annoying comments, or whines because he didn't win the roll on that piece of gear? But because he's clocked out at more DPS, he gets preferential treatment over Rogue B, who's a great guy. Sure, the dungeon run goes marginally faster because of Rogue A, but it would have been more fun with Rogue B along.
That's the kind of problems that come from all this numerical analysis.
It's interesting... I've never seen serious PvP guilds wanting to analyse damage output so they can discriminate when it comes to putting together squads. Why is that? Perhaps some do, I just haven't seen it yet, which leads me to believe it's much rarer than the "serious raiding" guilds who have to flowsheet everything and set up complicated rank and loot systems.
I like dungeons, in and of themselves. I hate them because more often then not you'll have at least one Maximize Damage/No Mistakes Allowed/As Quickly as Possible people in any group/raid. =P
My best memories of dungeons involved groups of people where no-one had experienced the dungeon before or read the wiki, and we worked together to fight our way through, covering fore each other's mistakes, sweating at the close calls, and laughing a lot.
Voice comms would be included in every modern game if TS and Vent were not already so prevalent. They are no more an AddOn than a log parser is, which is made possible by the fact that combat is logged in pretty much every single MMO.
Originally Posted by Drusillus
You don't need a mod telling you that something is happening in order to react if you know what you are supposed to be looking for, and you are paying attention.
WoW raiders do not have the skills as a general rule to play without DBM because it's a foregone conclusion that everyone has it installed.
It's not meant as a burn. My guild plays WoW as it's sole "ever-present" game. I enjoy playing with them, and a lot of them are pretty good players. But were they to come into Rift and there were NOT the threat meters and DBM-like features, a lot of them would need to re-adjust to that kind of environment.
Originally Posted by Agasutin
I just don't want anyone to think I'm being mean. I happen to have a lot of friends who fall into this category.
Last edited by Corwynn_Maelstrom; 12-09-2010 at 09:57 AM.
Paying attention can have the same effect.
Originally Posted by MushroomTat
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