NO DPS or Threat Meters

[Dekaden]

Do you care enough about your DPS to use parse programs that read your logs to determine what works better than something else?? If so, then more power to you. Its not about having folks belittle your DPS in and of itself. Name calling is just name calling. It's what that leads to which is being kicked out of PUGs for only doing 3555 dps instead of 3700 dps. Sorry, but if that 145 dps amongst 3-4 people actively harming the mob means the difference between winning or losing the fight/boss/instance, then you probably shouldn't be running it.


They are forcing it on you when it's required that you top out a meter that the other members of your PUG are running.

Generally, this has only been the case in WoW, especially with the advent of the cross-server LFD function. THIS is what turns people into toolbags, not dps meters. Im not going to dig into the all the social checks and balances missing from the WoW LFD environment, but without these, the game is all but encouraging this type of behavior. Simply disallowing a DPS meter is not going to remove the dbags from the game --- they will find something else.... an even lamer reason to kick you, like inspecting your gear upon arrival and determining, at that point, you don't know how to play. This was the norm before LFD and Gearscore. If its not one thing, its another.

Frankly, I think people are asking for a type of community that is almost impossible to achieve, en mass, in a reward-me-now solo-centric MMO environment. Its better to look at the true problem, than try to put the burden on a data reporting tool.

[Haseno]

That's still your opinion. I have played wow plenty, and what you people are describing is the worst case scenario. I have had far more easy and fun raid pugs than I have ever had bad ones, and most of the time lately people don't even talk about dps unless yours is like rock bottom.

You keep on saying how this ruined wow, when it didn't. You are blaming a neutral entity for your bad experiences.

If it's a worst case scenario, you just proved my point entirely. The problem exists in relation to Meters. I never said players don't have fun in pug raids. Where the hell are you getting your argument from? That has no relation to what I'm talking about.

I never said meters ruined WoW, I said meters bring many negative social impacts into the game.

When you say "Most of the time." That's truly an opinion. Based on your personal experience from what you witnessed in WoW. Maybe your specific raids didn't have this problem. But many people did experience these issues, and have been proven in each thread in relation to this topic.

My statement is farrrrrrrr from opinion.

[BucMan]

That's still your opinion. I have played wow plenty, and what you people are describing is the worst case scenario. I have had far more easy and fun raid pugs than I have ever had bad ones, and most of the time lately people don't even talk about dps unless yours is like rock bottom.

You keep on saying how this ruined wow, when it didn't. You are blaming a neutral entity for your bad experiences.

If you meet said requirements on arbitrary numbers set forth by the raid leader why would you experience anything like has been described?? We're not talking about a freshly dinged level 80 in quest greens wondering why they can't get into an ICC raid. It's folks that are really close being kicked because they are literally 1 or 2% short. A difference that would not be able to be noticed over the course of any fight unless it lasted over 10 minutes. Not to mention they would at least get into the raid and have a chance to prove themselves. A number attached to their name that is just below what the raid leader wants would not allow this to happen.


Sorry, but unless the raid is intending to carry a player who doesn't deserve to be in it, one DPS out of a raid of 10 doing 4800 instead of 5000 will not cause any wipes with regards to time it takes to kill the boss.

[Haseno]

I've heard their opinions. I've also heard those who like said meters. It is an opinion and in no way controls what happens to a game. You're being far too sensitive about the issue.

I'm not being sensitive about the issue. I'm being logical. A lot of players fully support parsers and combat logs, such as myself. Just not in-game ones.

That's the compromise, and it's selfish to force us to deal with the result of meters. When you already have a fully effective parser and combat logs available.

The tools are available already, make use of them. Stop asking more, even when some of us are against it. That IS the definition of selfish.

I don't care if you like my answer, it's the truth.

[Mr_Teatime]

If it's a worst case scenario, you just proved my point entirely. The problem exists in relation to Meters. I never said players don't have fun in pug raids. Where the hell are you getting your argument from? That has no relation to what I'm talking about.

I never said meters ruined WoW, I said meters bring many negative social impacts into the game.

When you say "Most of the time." That's truly an opinion. Based on your personal experience from what you witnessed in WoW. Maybe your specific raids didn't have this problem. But many people did experience these issues, and have been proven in each thread in relation to this topic.

My statement is farrrrrrrr from opinion.

Since your statements are proven facts, how come I do not see these things referenced on the official wow faq for addons? Deal with it. Your opinion is your opinion. It is not a fact. Stop pretending it is, as it seems that you are the only person that believes it.

The point you're missing is that there is something with an even WORSE effect on social settings in mmos. Players. Going along with your trend to get rid of these things that make social situations so hard on you, we should go ahead and outlaw players from the game as well. That way we won't have any negative attitudes and the entire playerbase can be happy.

[Mr_Teatime]

If you meet said requirements on arbitrary numbers set forth by the raid leader why would you experience anything like has been described?? We're not talking about a freshly dinged level 80 in quest greens wondering why they can't get into an ICC raid. It's folks that are really close being kicked because they are literally 1 or 2% short. A difference that would not be able to be noticed over the course of any fight unless it lasted over 10 minutes. Not to mention they would at least get into the raid and have a chance to prove themselves. A number attached to their name that is just below what the raid leader wants would not allow this to happen.


Sorry, but unless the raid is intending to carry a player who doesn't deserve to be in it, one DPS out of a raid of 10 doing 4800 instead of 5000 will not cause any wipes with regards to time it takes to kill the boss.

What you are talking about is something that neither I, my brother, or any of my close friends that have played wow since beta have encountered. You don't get chewed out for a 1-2% dps shortage. I believe that you are exaggerating now.

[Haseno]

Since your statements are proven facts, how come I do not see these things referenced on the official wow faq for addons? Deal with it. Your opinion is your opinion. It is not a fact. Stop pretending it is, as it seems that you are the only person that believes it.

The point you're missing is that there is something with an even WORSE effect on social settings in mmos. Players. Going along with your trend to get rid of these things that make social situations so hard on you, we should go ahead and outlaw players from the game as well. That way we won't have any negative attitudes and the entire playerbase can be happy.

Why would a company ever promote the negatives of tools available in the game?

You can't keep labeling my fact as opinion. I've pointed out for you logical and credible testimonials in which backup my statement. Whether or not you wish to read them, and continue to assume YOU know what I am talking about is up to you.

Your second paragraph is completely opposite of logic. But your first sentence in that paragraph is true. Players are more dangerous to the social environment than AddOns. You're correct. The rest of your second paragraph however is completely unlogical,

You can't spin this argument, don't try.

[BucMan]

Generally, this has only been the case in WoW, especially with the advent of the cross-server LFD function. THIS is what turns people into toolbags, not dps meters. Im not going to dig into the all the social checks and balances missing from the WoW LFD environment, but without these, the game is all but encouraging this type of behavior. Simply disallowing a DPS meter is not going to remove the dbags from the game --- they will find something else.... an even lamer reason to kick you, like inspecting your gear upon arrival and determining, at that point, you don't know how to play. This was the norm before LFD and Gearscore. If its not one thing, its another.

Frankly, I think people are asking for a type of community that is almost impossible to achieve, en mass, in a reward-me-now solo-centric MMO environment. Its better to look at the true problem, than try to put the burden on a data reporting tool.

Ah yes, the WoW LFD environment. How do people form other servers who have never seen people in the group know if they are good or bad?? Look at a number on a meter. Couldn't be possibly that the computer just got a download ready popup from norton or adobe. Couldn't possibly be anything other than the player is a hack who has no business being in this dungeon. Hence, KICK. Without the meters, the mobs would still be dieing, and if someone screwed up, you would keep going trying to figure it out. I don't think anyone is saying no meters equals no ******baggery. I think that would be a ludicrous position.


Agreed with the solo-centric-MMO environment though. While I like the ability for people who log in for about 45 minutes to be able to get something productive done with their character alone, I think the best XP/hr overall should be grouping in either instances or public XP camps for a couple of hours. Gimme a good Riftseekers/MPG/Plane of Earth group from EQ over running a buncha fetch, gather, and kill quests in random zone 12 any day of the week.

[silentwraith]

people don't get kicked for being 200 dps under.. however as stated before the argument that elitism and players not being allowed in groups isn't important in fact its rather useless as many of us will parse anyway and exclude those massively under...the true argument is do we allow the ease of meters or force players to parse... either way I'll be watching dps.. I just would rather not have to tab to do it.

[Mr_Teatime]

Why would a company ever promote the negatives of tools available in the game?

You can't keep labeling my fact as opinion. I've pointed out for you logical and credible testimonials in which backup my statement. Whether or not you wish to read them, and continue to assume YOU know what I am talking about is up to you.

Your second paragraph is completely opposite of logic. But your first sentence in that paragraph is true. Players are more dangerous to the social environment than AddOns. You're correct. The rest of your second paragraph however is completely unlogical,

You can't spin this argument, don't try.

K, I won't spin the argument. I'll just take your approach.

Dps meters do nothing to detract from the game. I'm sorry if you disagree, but this isn't an opinion. Its is fact. Stop trying to show differently, as you are wrong. It is a fact, so let it be.

[Haseno]

people don't get kicked for being 200 dps under.. however as stated before the argument that elitism and players not being allowed in groups isn't important in fact its rather useless as many of us will parse anyway and exclude those massively under...the true argument is do we allow the ease of meters or force players to parse... either way I'll be watching dps.. I just would rather not have to tab to do it.

Yes, people do get kicked for it. Perhaps it didn't happen to you, or anyone you know. But it does happen.

"Elitism and Players not being allowed in groups isn't important" Did you really just state that?

Yes, you guys will parse anyway. We're okay with that, as long as it's out of the game.

[AvianSun]

I predict by the time Haseno reaches 1000 posts, half will be in some form of "meter" thread.

[Haseno]

K, I won't spin the argument. I'll just take your approach.

Dps meters do nothing to detract from the game. I'm sorry if you disagree, but this isn't an opinion. Its is fact. Stop trying to show differently, as you are wrong. It is a fact, so let it be.

Cute. Read the testimonials, amongst all the threads before you continue to try and force your desired meters upon those of us who don't want to see them in-game.

Parsers already exist, make use of them. We aren't keeping you from having the ability. Just allowing them to be integrated into the game.

[Sire]

people don't get kicked for being 200 dps under.. however as stated before the argument that elitism and players not being allowed in groups isn't important in fact its rather useless as many of us will parse anyway and exclude those massively under...the true argument is do we allow the ease of meters or force players to parse... either way I'll be watching dps.. I just would rather not have to tab to do it.

I've stated before, parse to your hearts content. You are most likely in it just to better yourself.

You know that getting rid of the meter will lessen the amount of elitism in the game, and if it makes the community better, why not do it?

What you are talking about is something that neither I, my brother, or any of my close friends that have played wow since beta have encountered. You don't get chewed out for a 1-2% dps shortage. I believe that you are exaggerating now.

Did you even bother to read the first part of this thread? It's there for a reason.

[BucMan]

What you are talking about is something that neither I, my brother, or any of my close friends that have played wow since beta have encountered. You don't get chewed out for a 1-2% dps shortage. I believe that you are exaggerating now.

But it starts a slippery slope, What is acceptable?? 3-4%?? 10% 50%??? 90%?? It did happen to a friend of mine. It was probably closer to 5% . He said it was after about 4 pulls. Nobody was close to death, out of mana, or anything like that. They just all of a sudden got booted from group for lack of DPS. Really ticked her off. On a different note, I definately remember a gearscore issue of 4924 with a raid requirement of 5000 for a guildie. It was an off week for the guild so a lot of folks were doing PUG raids. All of us were flabergasted. I want to say it was for Ulduar.