NO DPS or Threat Meters

[Sire]

I thought the basis of everything you've been saying is you're the BEST at killing things?!



See that's what I didn't get.
I getcha now, in terms of inviting someone to my group (more often my guild since I rarely run PUG groups) there's always a few key factors.

1) Do they know their class?
This is determined by asking a player I trust to know their class to conduct a mini-Q&A to see if this person can talk the talk.
2) Are they available at the time we raid/play?
Pretty easy to figure out, but people have to be honest about this one, because if you can't show up, obviously you're not going to contribute much.
3) Can I tolerate listening to them/Can they tolerate listening to me?
This is tougher to establish, and usually why we have a probation period.
If people decide that the guild isn't to their liking or we decide it's a personality clash, call it quits no hard feelings.
This has very rarely been the issue as any guild I've been involved in was very upfront about our personality.

Gear is actually fairly low on my concern list, as there's usually old content you can fly through to rapidly gear new recruits.
Most good guilds can run a raid successfully even with a handicap.

If you just meant how do I decide if (I'm assuming you're basing this on WoW, since there's the GS discussion) I want to invite someone to a 5 or 10 man raid, the answer is all about personality.
When I form a PuG I always bring a tank and a healer I trust, or fill those roles myself.
As long as I have that covered, I can pretty much fill up the rest of the run with anyone.
I really have not found WoW content hard enough my mates can't cover while we educate some PuG players and make things smooth.

That was an excellent reply. *jealous*

[Taemek]

I met many of these people that were from top-end guilds in EQ1. This is more of a fault of content design than it is anything else.

You have a raid slot to fill. You have two candidates to fill this slot and you know nothing about these two players other than their gear and achievements. How would you proceed?

I would proceed with trial and error, as anything in life, experience, is the best teacher.

[midmagic]

No, it means how well they meld with the rest of the group.

Yep, that fits under how well they carry a conversation. However, their likability tells you very little about how they will perform.

If that is how you choose the players that will join your group that is fine. I've carried around dead weight lots of times just because I like the person playing the character. But your metric is no better than something like gearscore for determining how well the player will actually perform.

[midmagic]

If you just meant how do I decide if (I'm assuming you're basing this on WoW, since there's the GS discussion) I want to invite someone to a 5 or 10 man raid, the answer is all about personality.
When I form a PuG I always bring a tank and a healer I trust, or fill those roles myself.
As long as I have that covered, I can pretty much fill up the rest of the run with anyone.
I really have not found WoW content hard enough my mates can't cover while we educate some PuG players and make things smooth.

WoW, EQ, doesn't matter. The question is, how do you decide between two players, that you know nothing about, for the group you are putting together.

Yes, WOTLK is easy. A tank and a healer alone can handle the heroic 5-man content. Sometimes a paladin could do it alone. This is a poor example because WoW is easy. There is little reason to do a gear check on people other than to make sure they have enough hps to survive AoEs and some potential min dps for dps race encounters.

However, what if it mattered? How do you decide between two players for any role. If it is not gear score that is fine. I'm not arguing for it at all.

[midmagic]

I would proceed with trial and error, as anything in life, experience, is the best teacher.

This does not explain how you would decide between two players (what you quoted).

Flip a coin? First come first served?

[Sire]

Yep, that fits under how well they carry a conversation. However, their likability tells you very little about how they will perform.

If that is how you choose the players that will join your group that is fine. I've carried around dead weight lots of times just because I like the person playing the character. But your metric is no better than something like gearscore for determining how well the player will actually perform.

Aviansun actually had a much better reply than I did.

In a particular instance it may very well not be a better deciding factor than GS, but if the person is likable and they seem to "talk the talk and walk the walk" then you can always bring them up to that defining number you so look for.

[AvianSun]

WoW, EQ, doesn't matter. The question is, how do you decide between two players, that you know nothing about, for the group you are putting together.

Yes, WOTLK is easy. A tank and a healer alone can handle the heroic 5-man content. Sometimes a paladin could do it alone. This is a poor example because WoW is easy. There is little reason to do a gear check on people other than to make sure they have enough hps to survive AoEs and some potential min dps for dps race encounters.

However, what if it mattered? How do you decide between two players for any role. If it is not gear score that is fine. I'm not arguing for it at all.

If it's for something really hard and I honestly know nothing about the two (no one else I know is saying yay or nay for them), this is how I would decide (in order):
1) Who responded first. If I put up LFG and I don't know anything at all about them, first come first serve.
2) Assuming they magically were able to respond at the same time, I'd determine it based on character level. Whichever had the level most appropriate for the party.
3) Assuming they both have the same level (whether capped or what have you), I would next go based on the reputation of their guild.
4) If somehow they both hail from a guild I don't know (and this is getting into pretty unlikely territory for any MMO I am playing actively, I usually know either the player, someone who does or their guild), I'd invite whomever is currently closest to the party to get the party started.
5) If they are equidistant or there is a mechanic to get them both to the party instantaneously, I'd ask them how often they have done the dungeon. If one of them has never done it, I'd take them.
6) If either they are both new or both experienced, and the game allows for custom bios, I'd read them and the most original would get the nod.
7)If there are no bios or they are both super original, I'd ask a series of quiz questions based on the game until someone didn't answer correctly or was sick of me analyzing them for this group.

I know number 5 seems like ********, but I honestly anticipate even in hard content that I can either make up for or correct inexperience.
And if I train someone to do it my way, I'll have a ready and willing participant the next time who knows the score.
They'll hopefully remember my assistance too the next time someone is talking about me or my guild and spread the good word.
This way the next time we are recruiting, people will be more likely to app and we have a better selection of future guildies.

[Taemek]

This does not explain how you would decide between two players (what you quoted).

Flip a coin? First come first served?

First come, first served, fair is fair. If it goes badly with them in the raid, we simply don't invite again and try out the other if still interested later.

[Bahnstreik]

There is no way I'm reading 150 pages of this...so here are my thoughts on the matter.

I understand if you want to keep a dps meter to gauge YOUR progress. However, that is not how dps meters are primarily used. In WoW they are effectively used to catagorize and discriminate against people who would love to see new content...but they are ignored because their gearscore or their dps is considered sub-par.

I personally loved taking lower geared people that I knew didn't suck into raid content than using some superficial number to dictate who was worthy and who was not.

If there was a dps meter that only allowed you to see your personal dps...I would be ok with that. But I'm hoping to bring MMO's back to what they once were. People playing with other people from around the world and focusing more on enjoying the company and the encounter rather than monitoring numbers for maximum effectiveness.

[BtaylorTheRogue]

Use an out of game parser than if you simply must know these things.

I really cannot stand all these games in which people are not actually paying attention to what is going on because they are busy looking at parsers and meters the whole fight.

And dont worry about me finding out if you are a useless tank or DPS'er taking up a valuable raid slot. I wont need a parser to figure out if you are dead weight.

As a raid leader for multiple years, I'm keen to get some tips from someone like yourself.

Currently, meters are the easiest way for me, but it's clear that you either have an even simpler and quicker system, or you're lying out your ***. And surely, it couldn't be the latter!

[Mortifactor]

Threat Meres really need, bec well-dressed DD would be able to control threat, not to rip the boss / mob from bad-dressed tank.
Btw logparser would be better, then Dpsmeter, if Trion will allow to upload and analyze logs on official site

[Kidomi]

I would as well.

With like 20 people in your group, how can you figure out who is not doing enough damage RIGHT AWAY without a meter?
Without a meter, how do you figure out who is smashing button instead of doing the optimal rotation and control RIGHT AWAY?

edit : I prefer a meter over a threat indicator. Threat control is player skill. Determining dps instantaneously is not.

As a raid leader for multiple years, I'm keen to get some tips from someone like yourself.

Currently, meters are the easiest way for me, but it's clear that you either have an even simpler and quicker system, or you're lying out your ***. And surely, it couldn't be the latter!

[Evyl]

If they are "needed" how is it that people used to play MMOs before?

Even in Vanilla WoW before there were damage meters added in. How did they kill hard things?

Don't confuse a convenience with a need. While a meter of one kind or another may make things easier (much like other addons such as questhelpers, resource trackers, etc.) they are not NEEDED.

AMEN - I totally agree!

[Kidomi]

It's not a must, but it's a nice help.
I am not saying "the game is broken without a meter". I am saying it's nice to have meters and there is no valid reason to hate meters. We are not confused with convinience and needs. We want meters because it's a nice feature and hate the meter haters for mixing facts up and provide flawed arguements.

Quote Originally Posted by Corwynn_Maelstrom View Post

If they are "needed" how is it that people used to play MMOs before?

Even in Vanilla WoW before there were damage meters added in. How did they kill hard things?

Don't confuse a convenience with a need. While a meter of one kind or another may make things easier (much like other addons such as questhelpers, resource trackers, etc.) they are not NEEDED.

AMEN - I totally agree!

[Tumedus]

If they are "needed" how is it that people used to play MMOs before?

Even in Vanilla WoW before there were damage meters added in. How did they kill hard things?

Don't confuse a convenience with a need. While a meter of one kind or another may make things easier (much like other addons such as questhelpers, resource trackers, etc.) they are not NEEDED.

First damage meters were in the game before BWL was even added. They may not have been as widespread to the common populace but the vast majority of progression guilds already used them. Besides that, the level of difficulty between raids like MC and BWL and the later raids like AQ40, Naxx 40, and many of the BC raids is night and day. It was partially because raids could fine tune their players, that the developers were able to tune the content that much tighter. So to answer your question of how people got through earlier encounters without the add-ons was because, for the most part, those encounters were just much easier.

In regards to the issue as a whole, I would like to simply state that this being a game where the complexity of the class design is one of the major draws, I think it is absolutely necessary to provide tools to test and compare different class concepts; that means damage meters. Yes, I know it is perfectly possible to figure this stuff out with some quality theorycrafting and a stopwatch, I have done it in the past, but there is absolutely no reason in today's age of gaming to force that upon people. Those who don't want to spend hours comparing spreadsheet results shouldn't be forced to simply in order to find out which of two talent distributions offers the best long term results. That just isn't fun.

I know many will call that being lazy, but the irony is that I would rather spend that time outside with my family, or biking with friends. Not wanting to study for a video game is not laziness, it's just priorities.


Now one other issue that I would like to cover, which seems to be paramount to many of the anti damage meter advocates is a common fallacy about player skill. The antis like to parade around the idea that just because you top the damage meters doesn't make you good or an asset to your team. This is entirely true, but it is largely irrelevant. You see, while it is true that bad players can do good damage, it is rarely the case that good players don't. There is, of course, a limitation based on the type of character, its gear and/or statistical progression, and the role being performed, but as a general rule, the quality player will always be atop that threshold.

So the question isn't really whether or not dps meters still let in bad players. Of course they do. It is whether they sufficiently reduce the impact of bad players. And like it or not, they do. I know no one likes to be told they aren't good enough, but the simple truth is that if you can't put up the numbers, the problem is yours. Feel free to find players more forgiving of your play style or simply create a group yourself, but don't get bent out of shape because someone wants to be held to a higher standard than you are willing to provide.

This is a social game. We should strive to find players who want to play the same way as us, not be forcing ourselves on those who don't want to.