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Thread: Todays MMO's: the lack of "RPG"

  1. #106
    Champion of Telara Kuldorn's Avatar
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    There are times when todays mmo seem much more like console games, its quite depressing really.

    A living, breathing, vibrant, explorable world seems to be a pipe dream that will never happen. Everything seems to be quick fix not long term based.

    Im not an RP type, however im very much an explorer, and I really feel that my playstyle is merely being paid lip service by todays games. "Go collect that shiny from up that mountain and be happy we even put one there".

    Todays games lack the tools to create our own stories, which for me is exactly what an rpg is all about, allowing me to truly connect with my character and place in the game. Everything is hand fed to players, all content in games has some major quest hub that has multiple quests attahced to them, there are no places that you simply go to and epxlore, have fun and move on to yet another location you didnt know about.

    All the games have the same format, A to B to C to D etc etc. They are all designed with easy access all the way through. I like games being accesible but seriously, they need to stop after the tutorials.

    We want a world, not an on rails console experience.

  2. #107
    Shadowlander Xenie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kuldorn View Post

    Todays games lack the tools to create our own stories, which for me is exactly what an rpg is all about, allowing me to truly connect with my character and place in the game. Everything is hand fed to players, all content in games has some major quest hub that has multiple quests attahced to them, there are no places that you simply go to and epxlore, have fun and move on to yet another location you didnt know about.

    All the games have the same format, A to B to C to D etc etc. They are all designed with easy access all the way through. I like games being accesible but seriously, they need to stop after the tutorials.

    We want a world, not an on rails console experience.
    Yes. I agree both with this and the OP. We are seeing less RPG and more number hunting. But I like Rift nevertheless. There are storylines in Rift that I quite like. The world feels quite immersive. I can see the trend OP is describing though and feel similar. Yet it is also about the way how one chooses to experience the game. If one is obsessed with numbers, then the game won't be anything else.

    I also think that a Role Playing Game (with an immersive story, such as The Witcher or Dragon Age or Vanilla WoW... Wizardry VII or Lands of Lore) that will be an MMO will certainly come in future. If there is a demand there will be someone who will try to supply a product for it. It would definitely require a lot of thinking outside the box, but I think it can still happen. I am an optimist.
    Last edited by Xenie; 03-09-2011 at 12:38 AM.
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  3. #108
    Telaran
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    The problem isn't necessarily the game design, but that the general MMO community is a raw consumer and a brutal opportunist to the point where you cannot give players adequate role-playing elements without breaking the game. Back in the day, I think players had more respect for being in character as a norm as opposed to it now being classified as an exception. The culture has changed, and games have unfortunately gone with it. You can blame WoW, but this shift was coming way before the game was released, probably when the internet became a necessity as opposed to a really cool privilege.

    Moreover, the general consensus is that large virtual-worlds are frustrating and alienating, and that designers are encouraged to make all space meaningful and useful. The consequence of this is to make areas smaller, given that the time it takes to sculpt a huge, rich world is something of an impossibility when trying to make it efficient.

  4. #109
    General of Telara Pippington's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bronzebeard View Post
    I believe you are looking to capture that feeling of wonder and excitment we all felt in UO or EQ. But, like ******, it's only new once.

    There's lot of stuff missing as well as that "first time" feeling though.

    EQ1 for example was very different to WoW (or Rift).

    WoW was basically EQ1-lite, and whilst many of the changes were positive, equally many of the changes have left the post-WoW MMO world very bland.




    Unfortunately those MMOs that have had the potential to change this have suffered from development cuts and lack of funding and have never realised their full potential.

    I think even Blizzard knows this, hence Cataclysm rather than WoW 2, because they understand WoW 2 is going to be a massive problem for them, as it going to be exceptionally difficult for them to produce something that isn't just WoW with better graphics.

  5. #110
    General of Telara Pippington's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sinborn View Post
    The problem isn't necessarily the game design, but that the general MMO community is a raw consumer and a brutal opportunist to the point where you cannot give players adequate role-playing elements without breaking the game. Back in the day, I think players had more respect for being in character as a norm as opposed to it now being classified as an exception. The culture has changed, and games have unfortunately gone with it. You can blame WoW, but this shift was coming way before the game was released, probably when the internet became a necessity as opposed to a really cool privilege.

    Moreover, the general consensus is that large virtual-worlds are frustrating and alienating, and that designers are encouraged to make all space meaningful and useful. The consequence of this is to make areas smaller, given that the time it takes to sculpt a huge, rich world is something of an impossibility when trying to make it efficient.

    One thing I don't understand is copy and paste caves and dungeons, EQ1 vanilla, RoK and SoV had great unique dungeons, Shadows of Lucin started the cut and paste trend which most every MMO has followed since.

    Also in EQ1 till SoL most buildings could be entered and citys were pretty big and diverse.

    It's a little thing that takes away a lot of atmosphere.
    Last edited by Pippington; 03-09-2011 at 12:47 AM.

  6. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kuldorn View Post
    There are times when todays mmo seem much more like console games, its quite depressing really.


    We want a world, not an on rails console experience.
    I concur with that 100%, however I fear that the “we” you are referring to are likely to be the minority.
    Whatever the gaming genre, it seems that the majority of players today do not want much difficulty in a game, yet they are happy to spend/waste hours and hours repeating the same thing just to get a crafting level or whatever. I would rather spend the time trying to puzzle out a difficult dungeon or encounter. But each to their own; it is just a shame that the goal for many is to burn through the content to reach that magical level cap. I even hear some players say the game starts at 50, what is that all about? I would find it disheartening to be a dev in today’s MMO industry, you create all that level 1-50 content, just for someone to treat as a burden to “get through”. Then the same players come here and moan that there is no end game, or nothing to do.
    Last edited by ShotByBothSides; 03-09-2011 at 12:48 AM.

  7. #112
    Plane Touched Korrigan's Avatar
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    Hehe...

    Give today's MMO players a quest like Aerfalle in Asheron's Call to solve, which took over two months in the original game to be figured out, and they will cry like self entitled babies one day after the patch all over the game forums that they want their "kill 10 rats, then 10 wolves, then 10 orcs" quests back.
    Last edited by Korrigan; 03-09-2011 at 12:51 AM.

  8. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by BurgerLord View Post
    Why do all MMORPG worlds have to be so fantastical? Can't we get a world where all that crap is toned way back, a place that feels more real?
    How about Age of Conan? That was set in a fairly "real" world?
    Last edited by TokyoZeplin; 03-10-2011 at 01:02 AM.

  9. #114
    Rift Disciple Dewan's Avatar
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    instant gratification crowd, you can thank them. They want everything NOW NOW NOW, they want to be the best, they want it quick, they want their hand held, and they want it with next to no challenge. They claim that they are casuals but the true casuals really dont care if they cant experience everything...they play the game at their own pace because they enjoy playing it.
    Iscreamloudd Hib/Gawaine - RR10.5 Banshee
    Dewan Alb/Merlin - rr6 Cabby
    ...Smurff of Ywaine, rr7 Runie of Fenris.

  10. #115
    Rift Disciple Dewan's Avatar
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    Cant edit post, but I think Ill list a few things that most would agree with that has disappeared in games today that helped immerse people into the world and made gameplay feel more accomplishing.

    Very first thing would be Race diversity, Older games had many races and choosing a race was more than just about looks. The race you chose determined what kind of class you wanted to be, each class had unique base stats, and there was no racials. Small races were quick and dexterous, elfs were great spell casters, and Trolls and dwarves were great tanks.

    Another was no ingame map! When you first join the game, you have no idea where exactly you were and you memorized your surroundings to get around the map. Some might call this hardcore but not really. It often promotes exploring.

    Quests have always been in games but they were a lot more rare and a lot more rewarding. You had to read the quest text, but more often than not they were well worth doing. Also as you progressed in levels you weren't railroaded down one path, you could chose multiple ways of leveling. Solo play was doable and you could level at steady rates...but Grouping up and doing stuff often offered better exp.

    The night and day cycle: Night no longer feels like night time in a game anymore...It use to get dark in games, and there was often different type of mob spawns at night. I played mortal online and i LOVED the night time in it...it was truely spooky though It did get a little Too dark lol.

    Dungeons and less isntancing...Dungeons use to be open to everyone, they were often large, and there was ALOT of them and were often very fun to just explore and see whats down at the very bottom if you could get there....Instances were alot more rare and often were just used for simple task quests and such...nothing major. Now in games you see all dungeons being instanced and scripted and its the same old same old...kill elites and do the boss at the end.

    I think the last immersive game ive played that was great was vanguard...IF it werent for its such buggy game and it ran better and wasnt so demanding on your machine at the start..it would of been a really great game imo.
    Iscreamloudd Hib/Gawaine - RR10.5 Banshee
    Dewan Alb/Merlin - rr6 Cabby
    ...Smurff of Ywaine, rr7 Runie of Fenris.

  11. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bronzebeard View Post
    I believe you are looking to capture that feeling of wonder and excitment we all felt in UO or EQ. But, like ******, it's only new once.
    I agree with this. Facts are once you have done the rpg thing a few times then you just start to concentrate on the game.

    Think of it like this. Where is there more fame, money, personal satisfaction - in writing a fantasy novel or writing the lore for an online game? Seems to me its in the novel and those good enough to write a novel will do so. That's why I read fantasy novels when I want immersion in a fantasy world. The lore in games is such a poor second to these novels that I just don't bother with it. I play online games cos guess what I like computer games.

    I'm afraid I couldn't care less about the lore in Rift and played WOW for 5 years and know nothing about its lore. I care even less. I know I'm not alone. I have been in a number of Guilds in WOW and am in an active Guild here in Rift. I cannot remember one (that's right not even one) conversation about lore. I cannot remember one conversation about lore even when I played on a RP server in WOW. Everyone just seemed to make it up as they went along, that is if they could even be bothered to RP at all.

    Good luck to you if you want to immerse yourself in the lore of Rift. I genuinely hope it improves your gaming experience. However, I think that most people can't be arsed and just want a good exciting game.


    PS I tried to give the lore in WOW a go, got very bored very fast and decided not to bother with that stuff again.

  12. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by RpTheHotrod View Post
    That's why if I ever become a designer/developer, I would want to at least be in charge of one zone in the game on my own.

    This zone would be designed in a way to truly be hardcore and friendly at the same time. During the day time, the zone is safe and lower level creatures are around. There would be challenges for lower level players and there is generally good rewards for completing tasks there. It would also be an optional shortcut to a popular destination. However, any traveler would want to time his trip well because once darkness falls, the undead and wolves begin coming out of the darkness. The zone creatures are much more difficult and are all heroic difficulty all while turning into a much higher level zone. Even taking on one creature is a significant challenge. Being caught in the zone while traveling through once darkness fell would be nothing short of fear. Such shortcuts come with a cost. Rewards in the zone are much higher during the night.

    There is no breezing through this zone. In fact, if you manage to complete a travel quest during the day, you get access to a carriage at night. The catch is, as you ride it, creatures begin chasing you down. You have to fight them off long enough for your driver to safely get you across the zone.

    If you are brave enough to level and quest in the zone, you'll find yourself being in full groups and you better hope to have some crowd control, just in case. If you succeed, youll reap some nice rewards. Face it. Zones are filled with easy mode zones. Why not have a zone or two that is dedicated as a hardcore zone? Also I would hide a lot of hidden secrets and mysteries for players to discover and keep the zone generally updated. I'd have hidden events and whatnot that even a traveler could uncover.
    This has already been done in EQ. Anyone remember Kithcore Forest?

  13. #118
    Rift Disciple Saralond's Avatar
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    The "RP" in "RPG" doesn't mean what it does to people who ACTUALLY role play.
    It means you're playing a role of something/someone else that isn't you.

    In the game of Rift, for example, you're playing the role of a person in a new world, living their "life" in more detail than, say, an action game. It includes player growth and interactions with other players/npcs.

    It has, literally, nothing to do with actual "role playing".

  14. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angshus View Post
    Think of it like this. Where is there more fame, money, personal satisfaction - in writing a fantasy novel or writing the lore for an online game? Seems to me its in the novel and those good enough to write a novel will do so. That's why I read fantasy novels when I want immersion in a fantasy world. The lore in games is such a poor second to these novels that I just don't bother with it. I play online games cos guess what I like computer games.
    Even a top-notch novelist would have trouble writing engaging quest text. It is, by it's nature, exposition, which that same top-notch novelist works to minimize and blend into her novels because exposition is the dullest form of writing.

    It defies the old rule of writing, "Show, don't tell." An NPC giving you an quest has to "tell".

    When the bulk of quests are given because they naturally grow out of the the quest before, questing will become a lot more engaging.

    Typical quest line:

    1) Guy standing by his farm with green marker tells you that goblins are messing up fields. Please kill 10 of them. You go kill ten of them standing around in the field. Then come back to Guy.
    2) Guy tells you that their cave is near. Please kill their leader. You go kill the leader, then come back to Guy.
    3) Guy tells you that someone may have been giving weapons to the goblins and encouraging them to harass farmers. Please go to Spire City and talk to Shady Bob the Arms Dealer.

    If it could be arranged differently:

    1) You are traveling through farming areas and see goblins beating on a farmer and spreading salt on his field. You either a) succeed or b) fail in killing the goblins.
    2a) The last goblin to die shouts to the last one standing to go run to the cave and get reinforcements. You either a)give chase or go about your business (quest line ends).
    2b) Instead of dying and rezzing, b)the goblins take you captive back to their cave.
    3a) You enter the cave and slay the goblins, including their leader and a)find a man in a cage.
    3b) You are thrown in a cage with a man who has a plan of escape. You help him kill the gobin leader.
    4) Upon either opening the cage and freeing the man, or upon the death of the goblin leader when you escape with him, the man surprisingly attacks you! You either a) defeat him, or b) are defeated by him.
    5a) Upon defeating him you find instructions written by Shady Bob the Arms Dealer on how to find the goblin camp from Spire City, and how to negotiate a price with the goblin leader.
    5b) The man leaves you for dead and flees. You find a stash with a healing potion in it and crates of human manufactured arms with the imprint of Shady Bob the Arms dealer in Spire City.

    Less "quest text", and more conflict that leads into other conflict. Hopefully this is the way MMORPGs will go in the future. We should remember that it's a very young industry, and has a lot of room to grow and mature.
    The Roguepocalypse is upon us!

  15. #120
    Telaran Remeer's Avatar
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    RPG - Real Players Grind.

    I see no modern MMORPG Lacking this one bit.

    Murphy was an Optimist

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