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Thread: Casters vs Melee

  1. #1
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    Default Casters vs Melee

    Been a week since head start and I am almost 50 as a caster. Every day that passes as a cloth wearer I am finding it more and more difficult to deal with the heavy hitting, high hp and well armored warriors of Rift.

    Rift has all but eliminated the ability to "kite" a player or npc. The only effective method of kiting another player I have seen is by using max range. Take a ranger or sabo for example. They have abilities that allow them to extend max range to be able to hit other players and not get hit by snares/stuns/roots of other players.

    A traditional casters best defense again melee has always been to kite them. Do damage while staying out of range of the melee damage. The issue is that Rift has broken with this mmo tradition by giving melee (I will add rangers/sabos to melee) several advantages over casters that make it impossible to ... well cast.

    1) Global cool down of melee is 1s compared to 1.5s of casters.

    This is by far the biggest issue I have with Rift as a caster. I can not even go all out to build an insta cast mobile pvp soul build without being beat by the lowest common denominator of the game before I even compete. Simply put, melee can do more in less time. Score 1 for melee.

    2) Movement and Control Impairment.

    The traditional mmo model typically gives control and impairment abilities to casters. I like the fact that rift is breaking from this tradition because a caster always had the upper hand in past mmos. The problem with rift is that melee have to many and to effective unbreakable control abilities like stun on the shortest cooldowns and far to effective snares. Score 1 for melee.

    3) Cast times

    Melee don't have them, casters do. Score 1 for melee.

    4) Energy

    Casters are drained of energy very easily and regen in combat is nearly obsolete. A caster must dump several points and even sacrifice a soul for the main purpose of replenishing mana. Melee do not. The time it takes for a melee to regen energy is far better and rarely have to worry about when specing a role. There is very little in abilities for casters to sap energy from melee. Score 1 for melee.

    5) Silence & Disarm
    Way to many melee soul abilities that silence. Only 1 for disarm for casters. Score 1 for melee.

    6) Healing
    Bard is one of the best pvp healers in the game. Chloro is plagued by long cast times. Score 1 for melee.

    7) Cooldowns
    Casters are plagued with long cooldown on key abilities. 1 of the only skills I can count on regularly to live through a stun locking, poison filled, casting setback fight with a melee.. is on a 3 minute cooldown. Score 1 for melee.

    8) HP & Armor
    Melee have them, casters do not. Score 1 for melee.

    9) Clerics are just another melee class
    Yep.. Score 1 for melee.

    10) Melee can be casters without all the constraints of a caster.
    That makes a perfect 10 for 10.

    TL;DR version. Melee 10 - Casters 0.

    If anyone would be so bold as to come up with 10 valid reasons why casters are better than melee in Rift I will roll a character on their server and do 2 slave hours of anything they want.. collecting resources, running around the city naked yelling Nerf casters, whatever.

  2. #2
    Prophet of Telara Banthaz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lowjack View Post
    Been a week since head start and I am almost 50 as a caster. Every day that passes as a cloth wearer I am finding it more and more difficult to deal with the heavy hitting, high hp and well armored warriors of Rift.

    Rift has all but eliminated the ability to "kite" a player or npc. The only effective method of kiting another player I have seen is by using max range. Take a ranger or sabo for example. They have abilities that allow them to extend max range to be able to hit other players and not get hit by snares/stuns/roots of other players.

    A traditional casters best defense again melee has always been to kite them. Do damage while staying out of range of the melee damage. The issue is that Rift has broken with this mmo tradition by giving melee (I will add rangers/sabos to melee) several advantages over casters that make it impossible to ... well cast.

    1) Global cool down of melee is 1s compared to 1.5s of casters.

    This is by far the biggest issue I have with Rift as a caster. I can not even go all out to build an insta cast mobile pvp soul build without being beat by the lowest common denominator of the game before I even compete. Simply put, melee can do more in less time. Score 1 for melee.

    2) Movement and Control Impairment.

    The traditional mmo model typically gives control and impairment abilities to casters. I like the fact that rift is breaking from this tradition because a caster always had the upper hand in past mmos. The problem with rift is that melee have to many and to effective unbreakable control abilities like stun on the shortest cooldowns and far to effective snares. Score 1 for melee.

    3) Cast times

    Melee don't have them, casters do. Score 1 for melee.

    4) Energy

    Casters are drained of energy very easily and regen in combat is nearly obsolete. A caster must dump several points and even sacrifice a soul for the main purpose of replenishing mana. Melee do not. The time it takes for a melee to regen energy is far better and rarely have to worry about when specing a role. There is very little in abilities for casters to sap energy from melee. Score 1 for melee.

    5) Silence & Disarm
    Way to many melee soul abilities that silence. Only 1 for disarm for casters. Score 1 for melee.

    6) Healing
    Bard is one of the best pvp healers in the game. Chloro is plagued by long cast times. Score 1 for melee.

    7) Cooldowns
    Casters are plagued with long cooldown on key abilities. 1 of the only skills I can count on regularly to live through a stun locking, poison filled, casting setback fight with a melee.. is on a 3 minute cooldown. Score 1 for melee.

    8) HP & Armor
    Melee have them, casters do not. Score 1 for melee.

    9) Clerics are just another melee class
    Yep.. Score 1 for melee.

    10) Melee can be casters without all the constraints of a caster.
    That makes a perfect 10 for 10.

    TL;DR version. Melee 10 - Casters 0.

    If anyone would be so bold as to come up with 10 valid reasons why casters are better than melee in Rift I will roll a character on their server and do 2 slave hours of anything they want.. collecting resources, running around the city naked yelling Nerf casters, whatever.
    A lot of misinformation in your post. Melee can be casters without the constraints? Do you know how energy starved a melee caster is? Getting stunlocked by melee? 1st off, stuns have diminishing returns, so the 2nd stun will be only 1/2 the 1st stun. You're not getting locked. Secondly, you do realize that as a caster you can in fact cc-lock any melee-er, right?

    I'm almost sure your problem is your build/gear.

  3. #3
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    I agree with most of what you said in theory. But in practice, I find that normal real world conditions take away some of the advantages you quoted. I played both a mage and a rogue in beta and my rogue (marksman/ranger/sabateur) was trounced very badly by mages.

    Some of the Casters instants do not require you to face the other player, while a Marksman has to face his target to shoot. They have an ability that turns one of their shooting abilities into instants, but it doesn't last long enough to make a big difference especially if the other person is running around.

    Mages do have as many CC abilities as rogues if they go the dominator route. Neural prod is actually a very good spell once you up grade it as it is very mana efficient for the dmg it does.

    The problem really is getting out of the CC. For Mages, there aren't too many ways. Pyro has an ability that lets you blink away and remove CC but it has a long cooldown. Elementalists have one that removes all CC but that is very deep into the soul and also has a long cooldown. Basically, the long cooldowns are whats killing the mages which you addressed in point #7.

    In getting those much needed pvp abilities, you sacrifice your DPS.

    Luckily there are planar items that will let you break out of stun and stun the other players. However those have cooldowns as well.

    I think the best balance for melee types is to make their energy not regenerate as fast as it does now. Because of their fast energy regen, it makes spells that drain energy, or exhaustion type spells worthless.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by MoonDragn View Post
    I agree with most of what you said in theory. But in practice, I find that normal real world conditions take away some of the advantages you quoted. I played both a mage and a rogue in beta and my rogue (marksman/ranger/sabateur) was trounced very badly by mages.

    Some of the Casters instants do not require you to face the other player, while a Marksman has to face his target to shoot. They have an ability that turns one of their shooting abilities into instants, but it doesn't last long enough to make a big difference especially if the other person is running around.

    Mages do have as many CC abilities as rogues if they go the dominator route. Neural prod is actually a very good spell once you up grade it as it is very mana efficient for the dmg it does.

    The problem really is getting out of the CC. For Mages, there aren't too many ways. Pyro has an ability that lets you blink away and remove CC but it has a long cooldown. Elementalists have one that removes all CC but that is very deep into the soul and also has a long cooldown. Basically, the long cooldowns are whats killing the mages which you addressed in point #7.

    In getting those much needed pvp abilities, you sacrifice your DPS.

    Luckily there are planar items that will let you break out of stun and stun the other players. However those have cooldowns as well.

    I think the best balance for melee types is to make their energy not regenerate as fast as it does now. Because of their fast energy regen, it makes spells that drain energy, or exhaustion type spells worthless.
    ok, +1 to casters for being able to cast backwards on the run. It's true, I have used this on many occasions as a Inquisitor vexing people that chased me.

    10 - 1 melee.

  5. #5
    Rift Disciple gammexane's Avatar
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    Are you talking about pure melees or mages vs the world?

    Besides sorry if this is a stupid question my I have never roled a caster... don't you have pets?
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  6. #6
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    Yeah none of that has been my experiance. I would suggest picking up some CC if you plan to play a caster in PvP.

    If you play on a PvP server carry pots in case they get the drop on you. Otherwise pick up cc and kite.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by gammexane View Post
    Are you talking about pure melees or mages vs the world?

    Besides sorry if this is a stupid question my I have never roled a caster... don't you have pets?
    I have done a cleric and mage 40+ and rouge and warrior to 20.

    Funny you mentioned pets. I actually had all my necro pets fight an equal level ranger pig at level 35 I think it was. The ranger pig won against all necro pets. But every class has a pet class including warriors so its a tie in my opinion.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Araiz View Post
    Yeah none of that has been my experiance. I would suggest picking up some CC if you plan to play a caster in PvP.

    If you play on a PvP server carry pots in case they get the drop on you. Otherwise pick up cc and kite.
    You can kite bad melee. A good melee in Rift can counter any CC and close a gap via leap/stun/snare to easily or in the case of rouge ranged classes keep a caster at max range. This was my main point of the post. Kiting is not effective in Rift making melee far more dominate in pvp.

    2 skills in the mage tree can give an advantage to a mage to kite another player effectively. 1 being a stormcaller speed buff but it requires charge and another speed buff in the Archon tree that reduces enemy speed and increases yours for 15 seconds. However, Archon is a pretty poorly built soul.

  9. #9
    Rift Disciple gammexane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lowjack View Post
    I have done a cleric and mage 40+ and rouge and warrior to 20.

    Funny you mentioned pets. I actually had all my necro pets fight an equal level ranger pig at level 35 I think it was. The ranger pig won against all necro pets. But every class has a pet class including warriors so its a tie in my opinion.
    I am a Sin, I don't have a pet... well I got one from a rift reward... an ugly purple rabbit.
    Last edited by gammexane; 03-03-2011 at 09:13 AM.
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  10. #10
    Prophet of Telara Banthaz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lowjack View Post
    You can kite bad melee. A good melee in Rift can counter any CC and close a gap via leap/stun/snare to easily or in the case of rouge ranged classes keep a caster at max range. This was my main point of the post. Kiting is not effective in Rift making melee far more dominate in pvp.

    2 skills in the mage tree can give an advantage to a mage to kite another player effectively. 1 being a stormcaller speed buff but it requires charge and another speed buff in the Archon tree that reduces enemy speed and increases yours for 15 seconds. However, Archon is a pretty poorly built soul.
    Not really, I mean you can time the many CCs you have. You can snare while they're trying to reach you, thereby forcing them to charge. When they charge, you can knock back. If he's still not burned half way down his hp, you can now kite safely as his charge has been wasted. By the time he uses his 1 cc breaker, you should have your own polymophs and other cc's coming off cd soon, etc.

    I agree that mages might seem underpowered, but seriously, have you tried dominator? By itself it has 1 snare, 1 root + snare in a single hit, 2 stuns, 2 confuse, 1 polymorph. AND all of these have talents in the tree that give you even further bonuses when cast.

    Like extra dmg on that player, reduced mana cost after casting, etc. etc. etc.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by gammexane View Post
    I am a Sin, I don't have a pet... well I got one from a rift reward... an ugly purple rabbit.
    lol when I first got that drop I was excited.. sounded so bad ***** and it was purple! .. then out pops a stupid rabit. Devs sense of humor -50dkp.

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