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Thread: 2.8 - 61 Champion Guide

  1. #1
    Ascendant Sedvick's Avatar
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    Default 2.8 - 61 Champion Guide

    Spec: 61Ch/13Para/2Temp (swap 1pt. out of Grace of the Five Rings into Flinching Strike in Paragon if you want an interrupt)

    Buffs include Dominating Bearing, Shared Suffering, Enhanced Conductivity, Way of the River and Focus of Body (gets overwritten in raids).

    Macros:

    ST Builder (1)
    #show Disruptive Strike
    suppressmacrofailures
    cast Disruptive Strike
    cast Rising Waterfall
    cast Savage Sweep

    ST Finisher (2)
    #show Thunderous Strike
    suppressmacrofailures
    cast Thunderous Strike
    cast Titan's Strike
    cast Punishing Blow

    AOE DS/PB ease-of-use macro (3)
    #show Disruptive Strike
    suppressmacrofailures
    cast Disruptive Strike
    cast Punishing Blow

    AOE Finisher (4)
    #show Thunderous Strike
    suppressmacrofailures
    cast Thunderous Strike
    cast Titan's Strike
    cast Death Blossom
    cast Bladefury

    Keep the following on a separate key
    Mark of Inevitability (maintain this 100% for Mired)
    Mighty Blow (MB) (5)
    Savage Sweep (SavSw) (6)
    Disruptive Strike (DS)
    Chains of Death (CoD) (7)
    Bull Rush (BR)
    Cornered Beast (CB) (8)
    Proper Timing (PT) (9)
    Flinching Strike (interrupt)
    Weapon Defense (utility shield)

    Rotation:

    Thunderous Strike (ThS)
    Titan's Strike (Titan's)
    Chains of Death (CoD)
    Death Blossom (DB)

    Single Target
    Starting with 3AP (or BR > RW) ThS first into the following:

    DS > (PT)Titan's
    CB > PB
    DS > PB
    SavSw > RW > ThS
    repeat

    With macros:
    2-1-(9)2-8-2-1-2-1-1 repeat

    3+ target AOE
    Starting with 3AP (or BR > MB) ThS first into the following:

    DS > Titan's
    MB > SavSw > DB (** = DB procs)
    DS > (PT)PB
    CB > ThS

    DS > Titan's
    MB > SavSw > CoD**
    DS > BF
    CB > ThS
    repeat

    With macros:
    4-3-4-5-6-4-3-(9)3-8
    4-3-4-5-6-7-3-4-8
    repeat

    **For 2 targets, use BF here. CoD hits like a wet noodle on 2 target cleave scenarios.

    As always, to maintain Mired make sure you maintain Mark of Inevitability. The rotations are ridiculously easy, but if you have any questions/concerns let me know!
    Last edited by Sedvick; 09-12-2014 at 10:48 AM.

  2. #2
    RIFT Guide Writer TheGrinnz's Avatar
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    storm blade+4% str beats out enhanced conductivity+4% AP?

  3. #3
    Ascendant Sedvick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheGrinnz View Post
    storm blade+4% str beats out enhanced conductivity+4% AP?
    Forgot to clarify on that. For ST, SB wins by about 500dps because of how many chances it has to proc off of CB alone. I was skeptical when I first saw Zevus (shout-out for the ST rotation btw) post the spec and rotation in his Tempest thread, but after some testing it came out ahead every time. For AoE, it's hard to find a clear winner because they are both so close. I believe EC wins by a slight margin, but the discrepancy is so small that crit rng can easily make up the difference.

  4. #4
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    Sedvick,

    Good post. I noticed that many of the things in your write-up are exactly what I do (esp. for ST).

    However, every time I've ever tried to use DB, I end up complicating my rotation for a bit less DPS. Also, DS must have a target. Your AOE rotation has 4 DSs, which means 1 of them will be ST (which is why I think the DPS drops.

    Below is most of the write-up I did for my guild (I'm war lead, there). I put the PT in the Finisher macro (it always goes on Titan's, which is what we want) and I put some of the other things on individual keys that you have in builder macros. I also use MOE, as at this time our guild doesn't run any melee rogues (we'll run MOI, if they start). I also just put CoD into the Finisher macro. I know it's not ideal with less targets, but it still seems to work better than leaving on it's own.

    Note that the reduction on CB caused this AOE rotation to be awkward. A 6 second CB that we could clip to 4 just makes the rotation truly smooth. A 3 second CB leaves us 1 second short on a 15s rotation. I tried a ton of variations to smooth this out and having that one extra MB that transitions into CB was highest DPS for me. Your rotation is smoother, but the slight DPS loss and the must hit a target requirement pushed me to this.

    There's always a chance that I'm missing something with DB use, though.

    From my Champion post:

    Spec:

    61Ch/10Pa/5T

    or

    61Ch/11Pa/4T <-- you're trading +2% AP+WD for an interrupt here -- I lost about 4k over 8 targets in DPS


    Buffs:
    Dominating Bearing (which is all Champ bearings)
    Way of River
    Enhanced Conductivity

    Macro STF:
    #show Thunderous Strike
    suppressmacrofailures
    cast Thunderous Strike
    cast Proper Timing
    cast Titan's Strike
    cast Punishing Blow

    Macro AOEF:
    #show Thunderous Strike
    suppressmacrofailures
    cast Thunderous Strike
    cast Proper Timing
    cast Titan's Strike
    cast Chains of Death
    cast Bladefury


    Macro INT (Interrupt):<-- only available in the 61/11/4 version

    #show Flinching Strike
    suppressmacrofailures
    cast Flinching Strike
    raid <your name here> interrupts < %T >

    Other Bindings:
    MB = Mighty Blow
    SS = Savage Sweep
    MOE = Mark of Extermination
    MOI = Mark of Inevitability
    WD = Weapon Defense -- Shield
    CB = Cornered Beast
    BR = Bull Rush
    RW = Rising Waterfall
    DS = Disruptive Strike

    ST rotation:

    start with 3 AP (you can do this by hitting Cornered Beast till you've got 3)

    You can BR in, which gives 2 AP as well).

    MOE
    STF <- ThS
    SS->RW->STF <- TiS with PT every other rotation
    DS->STF <- PB
    CB -- Don't clip
    STF <- PB
    DS

    repeat - hitting MOE as needed (it has a 60 second cooldown)

    While the above looks odd, you're really doing a DS->STF->SS->RW->STF->DS->STF->CB because we start with 3 AP and it's better to start without the initial DS, I've put it up as above.

    AOE:

    start with 3 AP (CB it or you can BR, if you have 1 or more AP).

    MOE
    AOEF <- ThS
    SS->MB->AOEF <- TiS with PT every other rotation
    MB->MB->AOEF <- CoD alternating with BF
    MB
    CB -- no clip

    repeat and use MOE as needed

    end copied champ post

    I put a bunch of "don't clip" notes in the above, because the previous versions all clipped and this was a what to do after the patch post.

    Thurfor

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sedvick View Post
    Forgot to clarify on that. For ST, SB wins by about 500dps because of how many chances it has to proc off of CB alone. I was skeptical when I first saw Zevus (shout-out for the ST rotation btw) post the spec and rotation in his Tempest thread, but after some testing it came out ahead every time. For AoE, it's hard to find a clear winner because they are both so close. I believe EC wins by a slight margin, but the discrepancy is so small that crit rng can easily make up the difference.
    My rotation has the Tempest variation in it. I found the opposite on SB vs EC, but with so much testing on so many specs/rotations, I may have missed it. I'll look again at the SB variation.

    Thurfor

  6. #6
    RIFT Guide Writer TheGrinnz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thurfir View Post
    Macro STF:
    #show Thunderous Strike
    suppressmacrofailures
    cast Thunderous Strike
    cast Proper Timing
    cast Titan's Strike
    cast Punishing Blow

    Macro AOEF:
    #show Thunderous Strike
    suppressmacrofailures
    cast Thunderous Strike
    cast Proper Timing
    cast Titan's Strike
    cast Chains of Death
    cast Bladefury
    These will use Proper Timing first if you hit them during a GCD, i.e. after charging in, if you didn't start with 3 AP, or after you start the rotation (say if the timing gets off). In a perfect situation starting from 3 AP and not using anything beforehand you are right it won't use Proper Timing until after Thunderous Strike goes off but in practice you can't rely on that.
    Last edited by TheGrinnz; 11-05-2013 at 02:31 PM.

  7. #7
    Ascendant Killian26's Avatar
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    Is SB enough of a compensation for losing out on 4% ap/weapon dmg if you went the 13/2 route? Or even if you went the 10/5 route I'd think that combined with EC would surely top SB from a raw damage standpoint. I'm not knocking as I'm honestly curious because I didn't really bother with Champ on this round of changes. Good write up once again though, I prefer getting Savage up sooner because it's pretty strong with 61 Champ but the principles are the same.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheGrinnz View Post
    These will use Proper Timing first if you hit them during a GCD, i.e. after charging in, if you didn't start with 3 AP, or after you start the rotation (say if the timing gets off). In a perfect situation starting from 3 AP and not using anything beforehand you are right it won't use Proper Timing until after Thunderous Strike goes off but in practice you can't rely on that.
    Fair enough. We always start out with 3 AP in champ, so we get started correctly. But, because CoD needs a target, you can get out of sync and likely would benefit from an extra key for PT/TiS.

    On the 15Pa/0RB vs 10Pa/5T, I did a quick 8 target test and ST test. In ST, I did get about 300 DPS gain. However, in AOE, I got about 1.7k loss. Of course, more runs might even that out, but the RB AOE was working "uphill" the entire time to get to it's point. The T version worked "uphill" for some of the parse, but stabilized at a higher point (and quicker).

    I look at Champ as AOE with the ST portion really just for fights that occasionally don't have adds up. For me, I prefer the version that gives me more AOE, instead of ST.

    Thurfor
    Last edited by Thurfir; 11-05-2013 at 02:57 PM.

  9. #9
    Rift Disciple mhaze's Avatar
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    I thought they removed Proper Timing with 2.5...so I'm a bit surprised to see it still being mentioned (and even being discussed) in a 2.5 guide.

  10. #10
    Ascendant Killian26's Avatar
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    It's cd reduction was removed is all. It's now a one minute cd.

  11. #11
    Champion Thargrom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mhaze View Post
    I thought they removed Proper Timing with 2.5...so I'm a bit surprised to see it still being mentioned (and even being discussed) in a 2.5 guide.
    "Perfect" Timing removed... cooldown reduction that brought it from 1min to 30s.

    edit: Killian beat me to it
    Last edited by Thargrom; 11-06-2013 at 06:32 AM.
    Shermanator@Greybriar | 4/4(c) - 3/3 - 5/5 | R90 | Ten Inches Unbuffed

  12. #12
    Rift Disciple mhaze's Avatar
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    What a bummer...

  13. #13
    Ascendant Sedvick's Avatar
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    Thurfir, to finally touch on some of your points, the point of Champ is to fire off the finishers as fast as possible since they are the heavy hitters, and is why I use as many DS's as I can, which is an increase in dps from an aoe standpoint. Using 2 MB's back-to-back may seem like a gain but it isn't since you are delaying the rotation from using finishers faster.

    My next point is to simply state that CoD should never be used on less than 5 targets because it is a huge dps loss. On that same note, Death Blossom is the best aoe finisher we have (right under Titan's) since each of its procs can crit, so that being used on cd for anything 2+ targets is a clear gain.

    As for the ST rotation, I also apply Savage Sweep sooner than what I listed here. I simply wanted to put out the rotations so that people could tweak them to their own liking. I think that's everything I wanted to address, take care!

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sedvick View Post
    Thurfir, to finally touch on some of your points, the point of Champ is to fire off the finishers as fast as possible since they are the heavy hitters, and is why I use as many DS's as I can, which is an increase in dps from an aoe standpoint. Using 2 MB's back-to-back may seem like a gain but it isn't since you are delaying the rotation from using finishers faster.

    My next point is to simply state that CoD should never be used on less than 5 targets because it is a huge dps loss. On that same note, Death Blossom is the best aoe finisher we have (right under Titan's) since each of its procs can crit, so that being used on cd for anything 2+ targets is a clear gain.

    As for the ST rotation, I also apply Savage Sweep sooner than what I listed here. I simply wanted to put out the rotations so that people could tweak them to their own liking. I think that's everything I wanted to address, take care!
    Thanks for your reply. I must not be able to get that DB rotation working right. Every time I've done a parse (easy to do 5 mins), I've never had it out DPS the non-DB version.

    I agree on paper, it makes more sense, I just have never seen it happen on 8 targets. I wish I could, as the rotation you've got is much smoother than mine. Although, there's still the "you need a target" aspect of all those DSs.

    As for 5 or less on the CoD, I haven't done testing on successively fewer targets to find the sweet spot. I'll have to look at it. I'm not saying it's not a DPS loss, but I'm curious how large the fall-off is. Meaning that if it's not that great, then I'm not sure it's worth it (to me) to make it more dynamic.

    Thurfor

  15. #15
    Ascendant Byaku's Avatar
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    Is there a reason that the following isn't the standard for AOE?

    Code:
    Opener: BR > ThS
    
    Block 1:
    DS > TiS
    CB > DB
    DS > PB
    SS > RW > ThS
    
    Block 2:
    DS > TiS
    CB > CoD
    DS > BF
    SS > MB > ThS
    
    Rotation:
    Block 1 > Block 2
    ST is pretty much Block 1 with the exception of PB in place of DB.

    [EDIT]: Sorry, not to sound rude or anything. I just wrote it out on paper so I wasn't familiar with any particulars as I stopped testing Champion.
    Last edited by Byaku; 11-07-2013 at 04:23 PM.

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