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Thread: 2.5 - 61 Paragon Guide: Comprehensive theories, specs, and rotations

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    Default 2.5 - 61 Paragon Guide: Comprehensive theories, specs, and rotations

    With 2.5, the way Paragon plays is going to be very similar with one caveat: we gain a cd. Because of this cd, we are essentially looking at 3 distinct rotation blocks. This guide will cover both the RB and Champ variants. I will be writing about the RB variant specifically, and Kodlak from Legit provided his insight on the champ variant. Information on both specs will be written sort of side by side, starting with the RB variant.


    61 Para 10 RB 5 temp

    Jopok - Addiction

    http://rift.magelo.com/en/soultree/p...3kllayGGGli/Vg

    Buffs:
    Turn the Blade
    Way of the River
    Way of the Wind
    Enhanced Conductivity
    Stormblade
    Avatar of Wind

    Again, the idea behind this spec is to use as many RW on the back end of the rotation. However, I have found that I use way more RH than I anticipated due to energy concerns. Even when I had a VOJ bot, I was still having to intersperse RH on the back end. As such, for each block the back end of the rotation is going to be determined by you depending on power. This technically makes this spec a little harder to play. However, if you were used to this variant in 2.4, it shouldn't be that big of an issue after a little bit of practice. I am going to be writing the rotation out as though there are no RH being used on the back end. This might be confusing to some of you, but it will take practice and experience to figure out when you're going to have to use RH.

    Yeah I modified the rotation to reflect more RH, since I use more RH now. RH proccing WOTW pulls things in line




    My personal macros:

    #show open the stream
    suppressmacrofailures
    cast open the stream
    cast setting moon

    #show rising waterfall
    suppressmacrofailures
    cast final blessing
    cast rising waterfall
    cast death touch
    cast setting moon

    #show shifting blades
    suppressmacrofailures
    cast shifting blades
    cast reaping harvest
    cast tranquility

    #show combat focus
    suppressmacrofailures
    cast combat focus
    cast reaping harvest
    cast final blessing
    cast rising waterfall

    FS by itself, IB by itself.


    Rotation:

    Open: Ttt - RW - IB - FS - RW - IB

    Alacrity block:
    SM - OtS - SB
    Alacrity - (CF)RH - RW - RH
    DT - RW - RH
    SM - RW - RH
    SM - RW - IB
    FS - RW - IB

    Block 2:

    SM - OtS - SB
    Tranq - RW - RH
    SM - RW - RH
    DT - RW - RH
    SM - RW - IB
    FS - RW - IB

    Block 3:

    SM - OtS - SB
    (CF)RH - Tranq - RW - IB
    SM - RW - RH
    DT - RW - RH
    SM - RW - IB
    FS - RW - IB

    Alternative Alacrity block courtesy of Byaku(I switched to this awhile ago).

    [ AL BLOCK ]
    SM > OS > SB
    TQ > CF > AL > RH* > RW* > RH*
    SM > RW* > RH*
    DT > RW* > RH*
    SM > RW > RH

    There would be situations where you would go into alacrity right after SB instead of using tranq first, for ex trying to fit in the whole cd in before a phase ends or a boss dies, and not wanting to waste a gcd on tranq.

    Notes:

    So with the way my macros are set up, once alacrity pops I spam my (CF)RH macro until I do a 2 point RH, then move on. Aside from that, pay attention to when alacrity comes off cd and move to the alacrity block at that point. Otherwise, it is alternating between blocks 2 and 3. DT will also be used whenever, so there is going to be some variance in terms of DJ uptime with the way I have my macros set up. You might lose DJ coming out of shifting sometimes. Kodlak and I also have some variance in terms of how we handle the rotation through alacrity. Otherwise, things are going to be fairly similar. If you notice, I am not using FS anymore to bypass a shifting proc. That is because of alacrity and using (CF)RH first. Everything lines up more efficiently this way.


    61 Paragon 10 Champion 5 Tempest

    Kodlak - Legit

    This is the spec that I've had the most success with on PTS and that's why I'm writing the section on it. I know a lot of people will prefer using riftblade as a sub for the playstyle but this is what I've been parsing the highest with atm.

    http://rift.magelo.com/en/soultree#7k/3kllayGGGli/Vg


    Buffs:
    Turn the Blade
    Way of the River
    Way of the Wind
    Enhanced conductivity
    Soldier's Bearing

    My thoughts regarding using champion as a subsoul, as before it will depend on whether or not you crit your RH's (duh) but I think critting your RH's will matter less at this point just because of the sheer amount of RH's you get out there during alacrity etc, this would also make Combat Focused RH's hit harder and yeah, you get the idea.


    Macros:
    The ones I find useful are:
    #show Rising Waterfall
    suppressmacrofailures
    cast Final Blessing
    cast Rising Waterfall

    #show Alacrity
    suppressmacrofailures
    cast Alacrity
    cast Reaping Harvest

    Rest on their own keys

    With the second macro it's important that you still have Reaping Harvest on a separate button/macro since you dont want to get Alacrity off too early when it comes off CD.
    It's just a good macro to help with pushing 4 buttons inside the window of 1 GCD.
    Also you want to make sure Alacrity is used at the very end of the GCD right before your RH otherwise you wont get that last double RH hit. And ability lag will most probably **** us over there in a raid setting :<


    Rotation:

    Opener: TtT or (GtH)SM -> RW -> RH
    Block 1:
    SM -> OtS -> SB
    (CF)(Alac)RH -> RW -> RH
    SM -> RW -> RH
    DT -> RW -> RH
    SM -> RW -> RH

    Block 2:
    SM -> OtS -> SB
    Tranq -> RW -> RH
    SM -> RW -> RH
    DT -> RW -> RH
    SM -> RW -> RH

    Block 3:
    SM -> OtS -> SB
    (CF)RH -> Tranq -> RW -> RH
    SM -> RW -> RH
    DT -> RW -> RH
    SM -> RW -> RH

    Block 4: is identical to Block 2

    Repeat.

    All RW/FB are buffed by Double Jeopardy

    An alternative to Block 1 to use at the opening
    SM -> OtS -> SB
    (CF)(Alac)RH -> RW -> Tranq -> RH
    RW -> SM -> RH
    RW -> DT -> RH
    RW -> SM -> RW -> RH
    SM -> OtS

    The extra RW at the backend to lineup Tranq for block 2
    Pros: Get stacks of Unleashed faster
    Cons: Delays Block 2


    Ability list:
    SM - Setting Moon
    OtS - Open the Stream
    SB - Shifting Blades
    RW - Rising Waterfall
    FB - Final Blessing
    RH - Reaping Harvest
    DT - Death Touch
    Tranq - Tranquility
    Alac - Alacrity
    CF - Combat Focus
    GtH - Graping the Horizon


    For disconnects use GtH, if you dont have GtH off CD use Flurry, if you got none of those well, get you *** back in melee or spam Shock Pulse and Skyfall

    In a raid setting where you dont have anyone putting up any armor debuffs use Mark of Inevitability once a minute.

    Parses:

    RB variant

    Test gear
    http://i.imgur.com/qUQskIO.jpg

    Live gear
    http://i.imgur.com/PERhTtY.jpg

    Jopok:

    The parses are only 3:30, but that's because I'm using two parses that I did quickly to provide a baseline to compare against Tempagon. Thus, I didn't SS my crit breakdowns. However, my RW crit% in both were above 60%, and RH was right around 50% for both.


    Champ variant

    Live gear
    Parse 1: 29k
    http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/43/0wiy.jpg/
    RH Crit 48,4%
    RW Crit 59%
    Tranq Crit 43%

    Parse 2: 29,2k
    http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/600/q8f4.jpg/
    RH crit 57%
    RW Crit 64%
    Tranq Crit 58%

    Test gear
    Parse: 25.7k
    http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/801/8cae.jpg/
    RH Crit 58,5%
    RW Crit 61.5 %
    Tranq Crit 57.8%


    Kodlak:

    Yeah my stupid parser doesnt stop after disengaging but there you have it
    These parses are from the dummy foundry on PTS on the raidready lvl 62 dummy without any kind of consumables.
    Oh yeah and i didn't have Readiness 3 on PTS it seems, oh herpa derp.
    As far as stats go you all know by this point that high CP is awesome, after CP well AP/PC depends on the item, but dont forget about the PC, its very good, especially since it will make your CP more worthwile, although we have very high AP modifiers in paragon.

    The second parse had better crit rng when it mattered then parse 1, and by that I mean critting on Shifting, especially critting the double Combat Focused RH when popping Alacrity with Shifting, in the long run it seems to even out though.

    So if you like using Reaping Harvests, this is how you can do it on a t2 raid viable level.
    I use paragon on every encounter in both T1 and 2 with the exception of Inyr'kta.
    Regarding the riftblade subsoul it shows equally high potential especially sub 30 with more Final Blessings, I havent tested it to the limit.


    Jopok:

    In all honesty, these two specs are yielding essentially the same dps on the PTS. However, I have a sneaking suspicion that champ may pull ahead in a full raid environment. We shall see.


    Potential questions:

    1) HEY JOPOK WHERES FIERY BURST BRO
    -Yeah, go **** yourself. Power is even more of an issue. I can't even justify even remotely attempting it. I know Killian has with some success, but he couldn't get through a full parse without using Flurry at least once. I almost didn't even include this question.


    2) So should I use this over this new hybrid tempagon?
    -We actually have a viable hybrid that is yielding as much, if not more, dps than these specs. I suspect that para will outpace tempagon in st dps due to the cd. Play what you are comfortable with. I can say that for me, tempagon plays really slowly. But we actually have another option now without sacrificing dps, such as when people would use RB over paragon because they liked it more or were bad or some ****.

    3) Yeah, soooo which variant should I use?
    -Personal preference at this point. The RB variant is faster paced and a little harder to play because you're constantly making decisions on whether to use RH or IB at times.

    4) "Jopok, why don't you use CF(RH)>Tranq>RW>RH during your Alacrity block?"
    You can indeed do that and still line up Tranquility on the next block. You'll still get the same amount of Follow-ups and RHs (with the addition of all RHs being 3pt) but you run a very real risk of that last RH not being an "Alacrity" RH. On the PTS Killian tested this and it was VERY tight on the last RH (i.e. Alacrity was in the process of falling off as he hit the last RH that would be buffed by RH). Now if it was that tight on the PTS just imagine the likelihood of getting all four RHs in a live setting with server lag present. Doing a RW for that last tick of SB doesn't matter because the double hit (plus all the other goodies) breaks even with that slightly bigger SB tick from Tranquility, at a minimum. All the while you don't run the risk of having that last RH not being buffed by Alacrity just because you just had to have every RH be a 3pter. Do this at your own peril but you've been warned. - Credit Killian


    The guide's still a work in progress. We just wanted to get the information out there before it hit live so people could be prepared. As before, please, please feel free to provide feedback/questions/other theories below. I enjoyed the discussion we had on my previous guide and Kodlak and I wanted to create a centralized area where all paragon theory could be discussed.




    Edit History:


    11/6 - Changed Kodlak's Alacrity block
    11/6 - Added a question provided and answered by Killian
    11/7 - Added a clarification paragraph, even though it shouldn't be needed.
    11/11 - Added RB rotation clarification
    1/27/14 - Added Byaku's alacrtiy block
    Last edited by jopok; 01-27-2014 at 11:48 AM.

  2. #2
    Shield of Telara seppy's Avatar
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    time for 10 champ. but with savage sweep. might be 1 more button but it feels better than 1 sm for me.
    Dps warrior - Apotheosys
    Retired

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    I doubt it will be any real dps increase, as it will overall lower your strength by 2%, which makes every single ability hit less, not really do anymore dps then a SM.
    Last edited by Kodlak; 11-05-2013 at 01:17 PM.

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    10% finisher damage and soldier's bearing outweighs 10% AP from warlord?
    Last edited by Raviel; 11-05-2013 at 01:27 PM.

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    Will be changing block 1 to

    SM -> OtS -> SB
    (CF)(Alac)RH* -> RW* -> RH
    SM -> RW -> RH
    DT -> RW -> RH
    SM -> RW -> RH


    Does more burst, you will more reliably get that last double RH hit, and will make you go into block 2 and the next Shifting earlier, also gets stacks of unleashed earlier.

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    @Raviel - Yes it does, since paragon now revolves alot around Alacrity, the sheer damage the RH's does alone will take Champ higher then WL

    Also you not only lose Soldier's Bearing, you lose 2,5% dmg from the Gift
    Last edited by Kodlak; 11-22-2013 at 04:21 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Raviel View Post
    10% finisher damage and soldier's bearing outweighs 10% AP from warlord?
    Champ has a 1% from gifts now as well. The passives you get from WL barely break it even with what you lose from gifts.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Killian26 View Post
    Champ has a 1% from gifts now as well. The passives you get from WL barely break it even with what you lose from gifts.
    Thanks for that information, must've missed that in the patch notes.

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    Ascendant Killian26's Avatar
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    1) HEY JOPOK WHERES FIERY BURST BRO
    -Yeah, go **** yourself. Power is even more of an issue. I can't even justify even remotely attempting it. I know Killian has with some success, but he couldn't get through a full parse without using Flurry at least once. I almost didn't even include this question.
    I think I'm the only one here who still uses Fiery Burst . On that note you are correct that the energy isn't reliably sustainable if you went 10/5 (FB and 1/2 surging). I had instances where it would be three minutes before I would need to use Flurry/VoJ; and instances where I couldn't make it two minutes. In order to use FB and have a stable resource we're required to go 11/4 which is a loss of 2%AP/WD to gain 2/2 surging. That variation is my personal preference, but I do it knowing that it's technically a loss in the grand scheme. I've been using FB for awhile now and it's more of a comfort thing to help me line up my CD's...don't laugh it's just the way I roll. As such, I've mastered the nuances of that variation in reference to the appropriate times to use FB etc (which is just like Flamespear). Until the day that losing the 2% ap/wd is such a huge loss that I can't compete with the top five I'll use it, but Jopoks' 10/5 is technically the more dps producing variation.

    And I just replace one of the IB's with the FB in the rotation to maintain it on CD Jopok. Energy isn't an issue whatsoever but I know you prefer the min/max spec even if it only gives your 200 dps or so .

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kodlak View Post
    I doubt it will be any real dps increase, as it will overall lower your strength by 2%, which makes every single ability hit less, not really do anymore dps then a SM.
    That 2% strength isn't all that much in the long run Kodlak. I think it is =/= more than likely from a bottom line standpoint. In an actual raid setting I'm thinking that having Savage Sweep would be a gain with DC's and what not. I know that we have many DC tools at this point but they aren't always present and if Savage is ticking away it's just added gravy.

    I am curious as to whether or not 13/2 is better than 10/5 though. On paper they're essentially the same AP/WD buffs if Weapon Contribution is the same thing. I heard they're different, but whenever Durango post his math drivel my eyes just glaze over half the time. I defer to your expertise on the Champ variations though, as I didn't bother with them much outside of seeing its' potential. It's a shame that 13champ/2rb didn't cut it , because that would have been the best of both worlds right there. I've always found the Champ variations to be rather cumbersome because **** tends to not line up as well as in the RB variations. It's good that both variations are so close together though as it gives each player their flavor to pick from, although I agree with Jopok that it will probably pull ahead in a raid setting just because of the raw potential that RH has. Sub 30 it may break, because of the extra follow-ups, but I think RB is going to be hard pressed if a player using the Champ variation has an average string of crits during Alacrity.

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    Did you do any testing with 8T/7Ch?

    Mine showed an increase over 10ch/5T. Basically, you're trading 6% on finishers (2/5 of TNP) for 3% on all damage (3/3 DT). Rotation is the same.

    I did better with 8/7, but may have missed something.

    Thurfor.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Killian26 View Post
    That 2% strength isn't all that much in the long run Kodlak. I think it is =/= more than likely from a bottom line standpoint. In an actual raid setting I'm thinking that having Savage Sweep would be a gain with DC's and what not. I know that we have many DC tools at this point but they aren't always present and if Savage is ticking away it's just added gravy.

    I am curious as to whether or not 13/2 is better than 10/5 though. On paper they're essentially the same AP/WD buffs if Weapon Contribution is the same thing. I heard they're different, but whenever Durango post his math drivel my eyes just glaze over half the time. I defer to your expertise on the Champ variations though, as I didn't bother with them much outside of seeing its' potential. It's a shame that 13champ/2rb didn't cut it , because that would have been the best of both worlds right there. I've always found the Champ variations to be rather cumbersome because **** tends to not line up as well as in the RB variations. It's good that both variations are so close together though as it gives each player their flavor to pick from, although I agree with Jopok that it will probably pull ahead in a raid setting just because of the raw potential that RH has. Sub 30 it may break, because of the extra follow-ups, but I think RB is going to be hard pressed if a player using the Champ variation has an average string of crits during Alacrity.
    Weapon Contribution and Weapon Damage are different, in the same way that Attack Power Contribution and Attack Power are different. One changes your overall value, one changes the multiplier on that value for certain skills (or in this case every skill). My gut feeling is that the contribution increase is better but I'm sure someone has done the actual math.
    Last edited by TheGrinnz; 11-05-2013 at 03:36 PM.

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    @Jopok, During your Alacrity block that first RW after the 2pt RH runs the risk of possibly losing DJ if lag is present. I know on PTS it looks like you still may have a second left on DJ (from looking at your rotation here) but just playing the advocate here. Switching that DT and SM around might help alleviate that risk in a live setting...we'll have to see I guess.

    I don't personally wait that long to go into my rotation but I can see where you're going with it. It does give you another stack of Unleashed before going into your first CD block and I may have to relearn some muscle memory if it proves to be superior to the rotation I'll post below. I just didn't find that getting Flamespear up that early to be worth it, but I assume you've moved it to maintain more up-time for DJ on the back end.

    I'm going to bring this up before anyone asks...because I know it's coming.

    1. "Jopok, why don't you use CF(RH)>Tranq>RW>RH during your Alacrity block?"
    You can indeed do that and still line up Tranquility on the next block. You'll still get the same amount of Follow-ups and RHs (with the addition of all RHs being 3pt) but you run a very real risk of that last RH not being an "Alacrity" RH. On the PTS Killian tested this and it was VERY tight on the last RH (i.e. Alacrity was in the process of falling off as he hit the last RH that would be buffed by RH). Now if it was that tight on the PTS just imagine the likelihood of getting all four RHs in a live setting with server lag present. Doing a RW for that last tick of SB doesn't matter because the double hit (plus all the other goodies) breaks even with that slightly bigger SB tick from Tranquility, at a minimum. All the while you don't run the risk of having that last RH not being buffed by Alacrity just because you just had to have every RH be a 3pter. Do this at your own peril but you've been warned.

    My personal rotation below, and I think we were pulling right around the same numbers. I run into the same issue right now with where I put in FS and the possibility of dropping a DJ'd RW here and there. It's a work in progress and may change after I mess with it on live more. You're heavy oGCD on the back end is probably going to be the preferred sub 30 or during burst phases and VoJ etc. Luckily these rotations interchange easily as long as you remember that you will more than likely have to go one way or the other for an entire block. Rotation below is completely energy stable without VoJ as long as you have 2/2 surging.

    Opener: TtT>RW>FB

    Block 1 (Alacrity Block)
    SM>OtS>SB
    CF>Alacrity>RH>RW>RH
    FS>RW>RH
    SM>RW>RH
    DT>RW>IB
    SM>RW>FB

    Block 2
    SM>OtS>SB
    Tranq>RW>RH
    FS>RW>RH
    SM>RW>RH
    DT>RW>IB
    SM>RW>FB

    Block 3
    SM>OtS>SB
    CF(RH)>Tranq>RW>IB
    FS>RW>RH
    SM>RW>RH
    DT>RW>IB
    SM>RW>FB

    And for those of you have don't like hitting different oGCD abilities like me here's a macro just for Alacrity

    #show Alacrity
    suppressmacrofailures
    cast Shifting Blades
    cast Combat Focus
    cast Alacrity
    cast Reaping Harvest
    cast Rising Waterfall (optional)

    Spam that ****er until your RH goes off, or until you get the two points from RW if you go that route. Problems that I see with where I put Alacrity (did it for maximum uptime) are possibly skipping over it when server lag is present (which would suck). I won't know if it needs to be moved until these changes go live.
    Last edited by Killian26; 11-05-2013 at 04:14 PM.

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    My point isnt that 2% is much, but its something, also you still have to be in melee to apply savage sweep, so if you're in melee at the time, you can also do a SM just as much, because in the end, the dot doesnt to more dps then SM, or at least not for me

    I tested 13/2 and i found it quite lacking compared to 10/5 tbh, i dont go into math and that shiet, but it was quite a difference for me, but i see your point!
    Last edited by Kodlak; 11-05-2013 at 04:34 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Thurfir View Post
    Did you do any testing with 8T/7Ch?

    Mine showed an increase over 10ch/5T. Basically, you're trading 6% on finishers (2/5 of TNP) for 3% on all damage (3/3 DT). Rotation is the same.

    I did better with 8/7, but may have missed something.

    Thurfor.
    I'd think that 6% loss to finishers would be pretty big...well I guess 3%. If you look at the breakdown in a Champ variation the RHs are by and far what's carrying the specs' dps. That 3% from DT (whatever it's called in Tempest) is pretty piddly in comparison usually. It's 1% additive to your tooltip which isn't much. I could be wrong though as I stated in my previous post about not messing with Champ variations much.

    As to why you parsed better with 8/7. Did you look at your breakdowns afterwards and check the crit percentage on RH? If it was overall low, or didn't crit at the right times, then that could be why. 8/7 may very well be a more dps stable variation but I don't think the potential is there for the bottom line. Did you snapshot numbers of the variations so we can compare?

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