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Thread: 2.4 - 61 Para Guide (aka old school rotations and ideas)

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    Default [2.4] - 61 Para Guide (theories and rotations)

    Once the PTS changes hit, I'll create another guide outlining the changes. In all honesty, my rotation didn't really change much aside from moving fs before shifting and then creating a 3rd block(which would be the first block in the actual rotation) to take into account alacrity. The reason why I did it like that was because I wanted to use cf rh first during alacrity with shifting up to take advantage of the 50% buff to RH in addition to utilizing a 2pt RH, which would replace a RW double hit, which hits less hard than a 2 pt RH. Anyway, like I said once the changes go through I'll write everything up in the same style this is written to take into account different theories and idea. I thought that worked really well for this thread, so those of you guys that contributed overall please continue to do so and I'll incorporate your information into the OP again.



    Spec: 61para 10rb 5temp

    http://rift.magelo.com/en/soultree#2gE/3kllayGGGli/Vg

    Buffs:
    Alacrity
    Strike Like Iron
    Unleashed
    Way of the River
    Way of the Wind
    Enhanced Conductivity
    Storm Blade
    Avatar of Wind
    Focus of Body(overwritten in raids)

    The idea is to use RH and DT during shifting, and then ib spam on the back end of the rotation. 2/2 in surging is necessary to maintain this. This was actually viable in 2.3 after the surging buff, but I was too stupid/busy to realize ogcd finishers won out again. I know some people ran ogcd finishers prior to the surging buff; however, it still incorporated RH on the back end when power ran low. Now, there's no need for that.


    Rotation:

    Cold open: Ttt - rw - ib (refer to Byaku's opening theory below.)

    1st Block:
    SM - OtS - SB - FS - RW - RH - (CF)RH
    DT - RW - IB
    SS - RW - IB X 3

    2nd Block:
    SM - OtS - SB - FS - RW - RH
    DT - RW - RH
    SS - RW - IB X 3


    Legend (for new warriors, or people that aren't warriors and are reading this for some godforsaken reason):

    SM - setting moon
    OtS - open the stream
    SB = shifting blades
    FS - flamespear
    RW - rising waterfall
    RH - reaping harvest
    DT = deathtouch
    SS - swift strike
    IB - icy burst
    DJ - double jeopardy


    My personal macros:


    Spoiler!



    Notes: Block 1 and block two can be switched, doesn't really matter. Block one will have a larger burst during the shifting portion, depending on RH crits.

    In the 2nd block, DT will be 1/2 a sec behind coming off cd before using it. I just spam it til it fires. I haven't thought it through enough to figure out a better solution. With the CD on DT changed to 15 sec, you can use it in each block.

    Obviously, keeping up dj is a high priority when you are forcing as many rw as you can into the rotation. If you notice, in the first block, the RW after DT will not be buffed by dj. You could potentially skip that DT and do ss - rw - ib x4 instead. However, the damage gained from DT over SS outweighs the crit chance bonus to that one rw. DT was critting for like 25-26k on the PTS. SS crits for like 4 (really 14000, but you get the point.)

    When you open, you have to get into your rotation right away in order to ensure that RW during shifting is buffed by dj. At that point, RW will go off on the 6th second of the dj buff, which, as we all know as good lil warriors, is how long the buff is.


    Byaku's opening theory:

    Spoiler!



    What specs I use on specific fights:


    FT:
    HM Gel - champ
    Normal Gel - para
    HM and Normal Zav - Para
    Twins - Champ
    Crucia - Para

    EE:
    Prog - RB
    All other fights I use para

    GA:
    Para for all

    IG:
    Para

    PB:
    So far, para with the exception of Inyakta or however the **** you spell that name with apostrophes and ****. I didn't know the names of the first two GA bosses for like a month. I just killed them without caring what their name was. In fact, I still get that mixed up. What's the name of the first boss, Kyzan? Kaliban? **** it I digress.

    You might potentially have to use RB on the fourth boss for crystal control. It'll depend on your raid makeup. However, I'm not totally certain the crystal would be an issue using all paras and just splashing with sweeping. Even on the last phase you could still grasp and splash the crystals and dodge walls of death once the crystals are in place. I have no idea how many of you are that far into PB; however, that would be good to keep in mind during your guys' progression. So far on Absolutiation or whatever the **** the last boss's name is (I just call him PB and then I get hungry for a PB and J sandwich) para is the spec all the way. All other fights there is no question para is the premier choice.




    Possible questions about the build:

    1) "Jopok, why are we using a 2nd RH in the 2nd block after DT? I thought you said that the spec is built around ogcd finishers in order to take advantage of dj and jam as many rw as you can in a row on the back end of the rotation. Are you lying?"
    -First, I don't ****ing lie. Second, that RH needs to be there in order to both save energy and also to line up the rotation in terms of when SB comes off CD coming back around the rotation. WIthout it, you will starve without voj and your timings will get all messed up and pull like 5 dps or something.

    However, the rotation posted was tested on the PTS without voj. In a raid setting, you should be very energy stable with that rotation; with voj, I've been experimenting using ib in the 2nd block instead of another RH. I've also been messing around with forcing another SS -RW - IB in the first block to guarantee DT is off cd in the 2nd block. Considering shock pulse is not needed to apply amped, rushing to get through SB before amped falls off is no longer a priority. I was not able to force those extra SS -RW - IB on the PTS because I didn't have voj. Even doing that on live, I haven't really dipped below 50 power in a raid. The only other consideration is by doing that, you'll be slightly behind in reapplying OtS. I'd imagine a SS-RW-IB is more dps than the initial damage of OtS and one tick of it.


    2) "Jopok, what about fiery burst? That **** is op. 800 dps from a dot is so ****ing awesome man. Why aren't you using it?"
    - In order to use fb, you either have to a) go 11/4 or b) go 10/5, 1/2 in surging and manage energy a little more efficiently. I'd lean towards you starving and losing gcds without voj being on point. To be honest, I haven't tested a 10/5 fb variant yet. Theoretically it would be a dps gain. I have two issues with it:

    a) If I'm forcing more SS - RW - IB in the back end, then FB will be all over the place in the rotation, and eventually you'll be behind in applying it and it will fall off before shifting ends.

    b) Target switching. Right now, you're using two dots. I'm going to be using para on a majority of fights, even with target switching. Depending on how long that target stays up applying dots to it would be a waste. A prime example is having to break out people on the life side on Twins 2.0. IB spam is so much better than wasting a fb. I have FB and IB macroed together, so you could separate them; with as many keybinds as I use in para, that's more buttons than I have fingers. Of course, you could have 2 different 10/5 specs and run the FB on straight burn fights, but that's some next level min maxing right there.



    3) "Jopok, man, I just don't like using ogcd finishers. Paragon is a physical damage spec! Get that elemental damage bs out of here. Para shouldn't rely on rb finishers; they should rely on para finishers only! RH 4lyfe."
    -Yeah, I never understood that argument. I don't really care what finishers I use as long as I'm eeking out as much dps as possible. I actually prefer using more RWs(and final blessing) because it is the only skill that is inherently buffed by dj. You're losing RWs when you use RH on the back end of the rotation. Of course, if you really feel that way, just use RH all the time and you know, do less dps than the rest of us who aren't roleplaying what paragon should and shouldn't do.



    4) "Hey, uh, what stat should I be stacking? I'm confused because AP is like, the warrior pew pew stat right?"
    -Stack cp. Then stack more cp. And then when you're cp capped, stack crit. Screw AP. Again, ram as many RW as possible, make sure they're buffed by dj, and watch as your RW start hitting for 9 million. If I had it my way, the rotation would be RW RW RW RW RW RW RW RW RW(just kidding.)

    Edit: So question 3 and 4 come in to play with the new PTS changes. In all honesty, I'm not necessarily sure ogcd spam is still the way to go. I know in my heart that the numbers don't change since the 20% redux is across the board and aren't nerfing specifically paragon abilities or RB abilities or anything, but from my testing champ iterations are like dead even with the rb variations. I think the wl variant was behind champ, but not by much. I still prefer the rb variants because it plays so much faster. Going back to parse out champ and wl variants really ****ed with my muscle memory. In terms of cp vs crit vs ap, I still think we need to get to cp cap before anything else. I'm at like 1150ish cp self buffed and like 4200 ap, 2882 crit. I remembered the crit number specifically because it's a palindrome, although I think there's another name for it in math terms. Right now, I'm just taking the drops as they fall. My core is what I'm going to be using to manipulate my numbers later as I gain more BIS pieces.

    5) "Why haven't we been doing this for the past month?"
    -That is the question I actually submitted. The answer is because I'm an idiot and didn't think about it in time to be of use during 2.3. I suck at this game.



    6) "I'm new. What about macros and stuff? How many keybinds do you use?"
    - There are actually many different ways you can accomplish the rotation in terms of macros. I know there have been posts with these lolfaceroll 3 button rotation macros, but I prefer to micromanage a little bit more. I use 6 keybinds in the primary rotation: SM and OtS macroed, Final blessing, RW, and SS macroed, IB by itself, SB, RH, and DT macroed, (CF) RH macroed, and FS by itself. I also have keybinds for Grasping the Horizon, RH by itself, and flurry, which I think I've used once in the past 6 months on accident by fat fingering it, immediately canceling the channel and going back into the rotation.



    I don't pretend to know everything. This guide contains the information on how I do things. I tried to be as comprehensive as possible and also include theoretics on other possible variations on rotation and build. However, the main point is ogcd finishers on the back end of the rotation will win out over RH spam. Please feel free to comment or ask questions. I'll try to answer them/explain my reasoning on things inadequately when you call me out. I'm sure I missed a lot of things or didn't explain a few things very well.


    Live parses on the dummy:


    Normal rotation(control)






    8 min parse of normal rotation






    10wl/5temp

    Rotation used:

    SM - OtS - SB
    (CF) RH - DT - RW - RH
    SS - RW - RH x 3(4)

    SM - OtS - SB
    DT - RW - RH
    SS - RW - RH x 3(4)

    I say 3(4) because it depends on how long DT had on cd. Sometimes I used a 4th SS - RW - RH.







    The 1st parse had kind of bad RNG, 2nd parse had over 50% on RW and RH. Even at that it was still 500 behind. It's pretty close, however. The rotation is stupid easy and quite frankly boring as ****. Again, it remains to be seen how this performs in a raid vs 10rb/5temp. Final Blessing vs RH crits imo.


    Finally, I used a modified seppy rotation to have a 100% uptime on DJ. The rotation I used on these parses were:

    Ttt - RW- IB
    SM - OtS - IB
    FS - RW - IB
    SS - RW - SB
    (CF)RH - DT - RW - IB
    SS - RW - IB x 2(3)

    SM - OTS - IB
    FS - RW - IB
    SS - RW - SB
    DT - RW - RH
    SS - RW - RH(IB) <- depending on power
    SS - RW - IB x 2(3) <- used 3 if IB was used above

    Doing it like this starved me pretty badly. Even with voj I started to bottom out, which is why the RH in the 2nd block is pretty important. Resource management is pretty key here. I know this isn't exactly what you were doing seppy, but I just modified it a little in order to maintain 100% on DJ.









    I know the crit percentages are a little low, but its basically the same dps as my rotation with worse energy issues. Like I've been saying, the rotation can be done in a variety of ways now. If you extrapolate those RH and bump up the crit percentage, the dps would be the same.



    Edit history:

    9/26 - Added buffs, macros, and parses
    9/27 - Added Byaku's opening theory, took out optional rotation section for the moment in order to add the 100% DJ rotation and ideas later
    10/3 - Added what specs I use on fights
    10/28 - Edited information on PB specs, and also the intro in anticipation for PTS changes going live whenever they go live. I'm guessing in a week or two. Which means I'm screwed because I haven't had time to go on the PTS for like a week.
    Last edited by jopok; 10-28-2013 at 12:44 AM.

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    Champion Cersae's Avatar
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    Great guide, Jopok. I had come to similar conclusions overall. I also decided to keep a FB variation along with one without. Still trying to feel the energy out in raid environments, sometimes forced breaks can give energy a chance to catch up. Seemed alright on PB, but I did have to use a flurry on the last mini up top. Not sure how 1 Flurry compares to a entire fight of FB, but I felt alright about it.

    "Someday, you'll sit on the throne, and the truth will be what you make it."

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    Champion Thargrom's Avatar
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    I definitely understand the muscle memory limitations for SM>OtS>SB... however, I've been using the following rotation, and in my opinion it seems to ramp up the fastest... Also, I've been saving CF for disconnects, since Horizon doesn't include DT, and since the difference between a crit RH and a crit DT is very small.


    SS>OtS>SB ((For opening, replace this line with: TtT>SM>OtS>SB))
    DT>RW>RH
    SS>RW>IB
    FSp>RW>IB
    SM>RW>IB
    SS>RW>RH

    **note: with >70ms latency or the ability-lag-fest that was going on last night, I was switching the last RH with an IB occasionally to avoid delaying the next SB

    Horizon SB segment:
    ...SB
    FSp>RW>RH (CF>RH)
    SS>RW>RH


    ...keeps DJ up full time, and gets the essential buffs up right away for the first SB cycle
    Last edited by Thargrom; 09-19-2013 at 10:24 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cersae View Post
    Great guide, Jopok. I had come to similar conclusions overall. I also decided to keep a FB variation along with one without. Still trying to feel the energy out in raid environments, sometimes forced breaks can give energy a chance to catch up. Seemed alright on PB, but I did have to use a flurry on the last mini up top. Not sure how 1 Flurry compares to a entire fight of FB, but I felt alright about it.

    Yeah, I agree with you. Like I said, I haven't tested fb yet. I need to get on a dummy with a bard to figure it out for a couple long parses. I'm very flurry adverse so even having to use one is a no no to me. Additionally, if anyone remembers, this rotation is almost exactly what we were using like 6-8 months ago(at least me) save for shock pulse and an extra DT.


    Quote Originally Posted by Thargrom View Post
    I definitely understand the muscle memory limitations for SM>OtS>SB... however, I've been using the following rotation, and in my opinion it seems to ramp up the fastest... Also, I've been saving CF for disconnects, since Horizon doesn't include DT, and since the difference between a crit RH and a crit DT is very small.


    SS>OtS>SB ((For opening, replace this line with: TtT>SM>OtS>SB))
    DT>RW>RH
    SS>RW>IB
    FSp>RW>IB
    SM>RW>IB
    SS>RW>RH

    **note: with >70ms latency or the ability-lag-fest that was going on last night, I was switching the last RH with an IB occasionally to avoid delaying the next SB

    Horizon SB segment:
    ...SB
    FSp>RW>RH (CF>RH)
    SS>RW>RH


    ...keeps DJ up full time, and gets the essential buffs up right away for the first SB cycle

    I forgot to note that with my rotation, there is one rw per block that will not be buffed by dj; the one right after shifting. I understand wanting to save (CF)RH for disconnects, but your disconnect will be so minimal that I'd rather just IB spam and reset the rotation on entering melee range than never using CF in melee. Also, you'd be losing out on a DT replacing a SS every 30 sec, which is less damage overall, too. I think the crit differences were 2000 between DT and RH. I don't remember what they are on live atm,but 2000 damage every 30 sec adds up after awhile

    As I noted, I don't mind pushing SB back a second or two, Yeah, getting to SB on CD is a priority, but one of the biggest concerns previously is ensuring amped is up all the way through SB. Since that is no longer a concern, I'm not in as a big of a rush to get to SB. I know I said maximizing dj uptime is the highest priority, but I'm willing to sacrifice one unbuffed RW to ensure I'm using DT and CF on cd.

    Like I said, at this point there are a variety of ways to do this rotation with the end being very similar. Let's keep the discussion going so other ideas can be introduced, especially one's I haven't thought of. This is by far the easiest and most flexible iteration of para we've had yet.

  5. #5
    Soulwalker
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    I'm not much of a theorycrafter but the guide's very well thought out and polished. Only thing i'd ask for is specific macros, I've been playing around with options but can't seem to nail flawless ones, also adding buffs to the guide may help new warriors out too.

    10/10 /clap.

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    Plane Walker
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    Right now I am using the following rotation (scrounged from the parsing discussion) :
    Open: TtT-SM-RW-SB
    DT-RW-RH
    SS-RW-RH
    FS-OtS-IB
    SS-RW-IB
    SM-RW-IB
    SS-RW-SB

    *On live I am finding it a little more variable to whether or not I need the 2nd RH to make things line up
    **As ppl said you can probably squeeze a little more dps with CF-RH on SB, but I like the single cycle for simplicity
    Koz

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    Plane Walker Kryoz's Avatar
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    Did you save your pts parses? I'm interested in the raid buffed differences between the possible specs.
    Last edited by Kryoz; 09-19-2013 at 12:20 PM.
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    Shadowlander Syven's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Offace View Post
    I'm not much of a theorycrafter but the guide's very well thought out and polished. Only thing i'd ask for is specific macros, I've been playing around with options but can't seem to nail flawless ones, also adding buffs to the guide may help new warriors out too.

    10/10 /clap.
    I'd ask for macros as well but for a different reason. Some of us use the lolfaceroll macros because... we have carpel tunnel and *need* them to play. Please don't be so quick to laugh at folks who use macros, op. Some of us would like to min/max too to help our guilds but are restricted by physical pain.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kryoz View Post
    Did you save your pts parses? I'm interested in the raid buffed differences between the possible specs.
    Why the hell are you posting here instead of asking me on TS or in game? Lemme try to find them.

    Test gear with the op rotation:







    Byaku had posted a lot of parses in test gear, so I only took a ss of me doing the RH rotation in live gear to see the difference. Typically the RH rotations were 24.5-25.3kish.



  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Syven View Post
    I'd ask for macros as well but for a different reason. Some of us use the lolfaceroll macros because... we have carpel tunnel and *need* them to play. Please don't be so quick to laugh at folks who use macros, op. Some of us would like to min/max too to help our guilds but are restricted by physical pain.
    Don't misunderstand, the lolfaceroll comment pertained to years of other classes saying warrior rotations are easy. I don't really care how someone does the rotation as long as they're doing it efficiently. Like I said, I just prefer to micro manage the rotation a little bit more. However, I use 4 macros and 6 keybinds for the main portion of the rotation so unfortunately I'm not sure whether mine would be of much use to someone in your situation. I'll post them here however:


    Key 2:
    #show open the stream
    suppressmacrofailures
    cast open the stream
    cast setting moon

    Key 3:
    #show rising waterfall
    suppressmacrofailures
    cast final blessing
    cast rising waterfall
    cast swift strike

    Key 5:
    #show shifting blades
    suppressmacrofailures
    cast shifting blades
    cast reaping harvest
    cast death touch

    Key 6:
    #show combat focus
    suppressmacrofailures
    cast combat focus
    cast reaping harvest

    IB on 4, flamespear on shift 3.

  11. #11
    Shield of Telara
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    Quote Originally Posted by jopok View Post
    5) "Why haven't we been doing this for the past month?"
    -That is the question I actually submitted. The answer is because I'm an idiot and didn't think about it in time to be of use during 2.3. I suck at this game.
    hahah. for real though, 61wl/6bm shifted all the focus off paragon, so i'm not surprised it took this long to show up.

    anyway - has anyone tried parsing with a scald variant since it got buffed? i know it's a 6% ap loss so i've been avoiding it, but i wonder if it would parse overall higher with fb/ib and scald.
    Last edited by archaionfm; 09-19-2013 at 12:53 PM.

  12. #12
    Ascendant Byaku's Avatar
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    There are only so many variations you can do for the current Paragon. Key things to note.
    • DT > RH: Thus CF-RH is not a necessity, keep it for transition to Grasping the Horizon. It is only stronger with the Synergy Crystal 4 Set Bonus. If you don't have it yet, just stick with CF-RH if you want to min-max.
    • DJ 100% Up-Time: Rotate in a Swift Strike once every 2 Follow-Up. This is possible with the oGCD Rotation.
    • Open with TT-SM: TT for the initial DJ and SM for the initial Follow-Up buff.
    • oGCD are not stronger: There seems to be a misconception about oGCD Finishers like Icy Burst, it is not stronger than RH, it simply "allows" an optimum rotation for pushing DPS because you're able to fit more into the rotation. This is why there are 2 RH instead of just 1. Theory in Spoiler.

    Code:
          = OPENER =
    
       TT - SM - OS - SB
    
    
         = ROTATION =
    
         DT - RW - RH
         SS - RW - RH
         FS - RW - IB
         SS - RW - IB
         SM - RW - IB
         SS - OS - SB
    
    
      = GTH TRANSITION =
    
         SS - OS - SB
    CF - RH - FS - RW - RH
         SS - RW - RH
         SS - RW - RH
         SM - RW - IB
    
    
    GTH: Grasping the Horizon
    Theoretically, you can run 10/5 with 1 point into FB instead of 2/2 in Surging Energy. But you'd need spot on VoJ or mix in Flurry (untested). If you test this with VoJ and are able to sustain power-management (without halting rotation), then for sure use 10/5 with 1/2 Surging Energy and 1/1 Fiery Burst.

    Quote Originally Posted by archaionfm View Post
    anyway - has anyone tried parsing with a scald variant since it got buffed? i know it's a 6% ap loss so i've been avoiding it, but i wonder if it would parse overall higher with fb/ib and scald.
    Tested. You lose too much for little gain on Scald.
    Last edited by Byaku; 09-19-2013 at 02:04 PM.

  13. #13
    Plane Walker Kryoz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jopok View Post
    why the hell are you posting here instead of asking me on ts or in game? Lemme try to find them.

    Test gear with the op rotation:








    byaku had posted a lot of parses in test gear, so i only took a ss of me doing the rh rotation in live gear to see the difference. Typically the rh rotations were 24.5-25.3kish.


    I was in class. I'm sorry. I'm a dirty casual!
    Last edited by Kryoz; 09-19-2013 at 02:25 PM.
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    Shield of Telara seppy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by archaionfm View Post
    hahah. for real though, 61wl/6bm shifted all the focus off paragon, so i'm not surprised it took this long to show up.

    anyway - has anyone tried parsing with a scald variant since it got buffed? i know it's a 6% ap loss so i've been avoiding it, but i wonder if it would parse overall higher with fb/ib and scald.
    no more 13/2. we had it 6 months ago, died with scald/ib(or fb?) nerf. why? so we use physical finishers.

    and look again now. after all those,ogcd are ahead still :P.

    @ still havent tested rb finishers jopok. will do and feedback. good write up.
    Dps warrior - Apotheosys
    Retired

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    Great job man

    Been doing something very similar myself, but i raided with this yesterday and i only put 1 point into surging and grabbed fiery burst instead, no energy issues whatsoever in a raid setting!

    On the dummy with only living (on live) i had to use flurry only once during a 5 min parse and still ended up in the regions on 20k+ on live dummy

    Edit: Byaku wrote this 2 posts ago, pardon my ignorance! Oh and all that **** about Grasping the Horizon is awesum
    Last edited by Kodlak; 09-19-2013 at 10:46 PM.

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