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Thread: Graduate from being a lemming: The "Warchon" and understanding the PvP meta of 1.5-.6

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    Rift Chaser Lunacresia's Avatar
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    Default Graduate from being a lemming: The "Warchon" and understanding the PvP meta of 1.5-.6

    (Warning: Long as hell)

    I created a write up on this before, but it faded into obscurity due to many class outcry threads. I wanted to make a more detailed write up on this due to the state of the warrior in 1.5, the developer focus on tanking for 1.6, and lack of changes being added to the warrior dps survival power in PVP.

    First of all, the warrior fails as a frontline class. As a melee dependent class, the warrior must break into the enemy's frontline in order to effectively make use of all of it's tools and utilities. Because the warrior is the only class unable to effectively self heal and the lack of powerful defensive cooldowns that the warrior lacks in comparison to the rogue, frontline warrior gameplay contributes very little to the team.

    There are several reasons for this:

    A.) The warrior is committed to frontline combat. Once the warrior uses it's first gap closing ability, the warrior must understand that he has no escape mechanics to vacate the frontline. Rogues have the ability to escape into stealth, put up powerful shields and escape with run abilities, or effectively deal warrior level damage from 35m. This makes the warrior's presence on the frontline detrimental to the team because the warrior puts a massive strain on the healers.

    B.) The warrior lacks effective survival power to warrant it's position on the front and becomes a burden on the team. In order for warriors to increase survival power, they must pass on DPS talents and put points into raw tanking trees that cut the warrior's killing potential by a large margin. A warrior that is committed to a Riftblade build can deal decent damage, but it is nowhere near on par with a rogue that can more easily access the frontline, escape the frontline with cooldowns, and effectively deal more damage by putting support points into Riftstalker without hindering DPS. A rogue has more survival options on the front and puts less team strain on the healers. Because most survival warriors are too heavy invested into tank trees, the amount of pressure that they put on the frontline does not warrant them heal priority over other classes that are more effective at damage, or more independent. The sad truth is that Chlorolocks and RS/NBs make a more effective frontline than warriors.

    C.) Stat weight hurts warriors due to Strength's lack of ability as a DPS stat and it's effectiveness as a tanking stat. Warrior gear is heavily strength stacked, causing the warrior to favor shield and sword oriented Riftblade builds. The lack of physical damage ability in comparison of to elemental damage gives the warrior only one DPS option: Riftblade sword and shield. Even while in this spec, with the lack of OGCDs and burst ability, a warrior not only fails at survival power but cannot kill effectively. This is evidenced by warriors wailing on P6+ wardens and posing no threat at all. While some utility talents are useful from the warrior lines, the lingering wounds debuff warrants to many points into a gimped physical damage tree to make it worth taking a warrior over a Marksman of fellblade's rogue, who can effectively apply the debuff faster, more effectively, and stay alive longer due to lifesteal.

    D.) DPS warriors are henceforth known as "lemmings" who charge into the front with very little survival power, die while only putting a small dent in enemy forces, and respawn again to do the entire things over again.


    CONCLUSION ON THE STATE OF THE WARRIOR:


    After experimenting with many different DPS builds and trees, I could not find anything DPS based that contributes more to the team than a AoE Mage with high survival power or a rogue, who has immense killing power. The presence of lemmings are a hinderance to the team because they cause massive heal drain on the casters due to their lacking survival skills and the fact that they deal very little threat in comparison to other classes. Warriors that want to be effective in combat must move away from DPS as their primary focus and instead look to trees with powerful SUPPORT ABILITIES. The premier trees are VK and Warlord. Both 38 VK and deep warlord offer the warrior powerful support options that allow it to graduate from being a DPS lemming that is simply running to the front and being farmed to something much more important to the team.

    *While the 38 VK build is not the focus if this guide, it is still a very viable spec for support purposes, which is the warrior mindset that this guide advocates.

    For more information in how to not be a lemming and use VK properly, see thinking man's build here:

    http://forums.riftgame.com/rift-gene...ild-vk-rb.html


    The ultimate facts are:

    -lemmings are not threatening damage dealers unless they completely outgear the enemy and are backed by a strong healer, who contributes to the team more than the lemming. It can be argued that the healer has better things to do than heal the lemming, who isn't doing much in comparison to other classes. If you don't believe me you must be ignorant to chains of lemmings chasing P8 wardens who simply laugh at their attempts to get the healer under 50%. While lemmings were once able to heavily threaten healers, the addition of lingering wounds to a 35m marksman makes the lemming's key role in "softening" up healers a joke.

    -The lemming lacks frontline survival and battlefield escape tools. The most a lemming can contribute to a team in 1.5 is maybe pressuring or killing 1-2 people before dying on the front. When a rogue can do this much more effectively and contribute more than a warrior can, pure DPS warrior "lemmings" are something that a team does not need. Warriors are better off doing other things. Once your in combat as a lemming, there is no out, and all you can do is deal as much damage as you can before going down, or before the healer either dies or warrants you as not being important enough to continue healing you. When faced with a choice on who to save, it is most beneficial to the team to abandon the DPS warror that is eating swarms of damage with no defenses and instead heal the frontline Chlorolock with crossheals to keep enemy fire focused on him instead of more important targets.

    -Selfish builds or "Anti-rogue" specs are dependent on the warrior being hit and countering, smart teams can simply bypass this problem by not attacking the warrior (who poses little threat and contribution) and attack other more important teammates instead. Any teammate carries more team value than a DPS warrior if played by a compentent player.


    OPTIMIZING THE EFFECTIVENESS OF THE WARRIOR AND MAKING IT A TEAM PLAYER:


    After experimenting with many different builds and tactics, I came to a conclusion about the warrior in this meta. In order to optimize effectiveness, the warrior must move away from attempting to be a frontline combatant and instead rely on other more "team-oriented" builds and tactics in order to make a bigger impact on the battlefield. This leaves 38 VK and deep warlord as the only effective options for utilizing strong team contribution and utility while still preventing the warrior from degrating into lemming status in a warfront.

    After many days of testing, tons of failed builds, and many lost WFs, I created a build that changes the role of the warrior in PvP from a lacking DPSer that strains the team into an important support unit that can be much more effective in team play.

    I believe this build and mentality of playing a warrior will survive through 1.6 due to the ineffective warrior DPS trees not being radically changed and the developer focus on tanking trees, which will make this build and variations of it even more powerful in days to come.

    To those wanting to try something new and trying to be a team player, this build is not about damage. As a lemming-based warrior, you naturally suck at any physical damage dealing, don't deal enough elemental damage to threaten healers, and have no survival power. This is something completely new that takes a totally different mindset to play. Basically I devised a build that turns the warrior into an unkillable support archon that tremendously changes the tides of games. While running this build I found myself winning more games than losing. I felt that this team support mentality and build contributes far more to the team than another lemming running into the front just to get focus fired and killed.


    THE WARCHON (BUILD):


    I call this build the warchon, while many would argue that the 38 VK is more effective, the VK variation only brings shockburst to the table and lacks in effective team support. The commands at the high end of the Warlord tree are absolutely vital for team success and warranting the warrior a key position within a good team. This build is subject to change in 1.6 IF SUBDUE IS FIXED.


    After messing around with various talents spreads, I came to the conclusion on this:

    http://rift.zam.com/en/stc.html?t=0c...sbz.Auqxhzzzcz


    The premise of the build is simply. The warrior stands at a 20m range, spams Reaver buffs to build AP and heal then dumps all of the built AP into warlord support abilities. The immense amount of healing that this build gains with figurehead, grisly works, reaver DoTs, and high amount of passive survival power makes the warrior an effective wall that stands between the enemy and the healing/caster backline.

    SURVIVAL ASSESSMENT:

    -Against a swarm of enemies, Reaver DoT's spread along the enemy team as builders will heal the warrior immensely with figurehead.
    -That shall which shall not kill me is among the most effective survival talents, when paired with figurehead, the warrior effectively mitigates 25% off all crit damage in healing and gains a healing bonus to this mitigation
    -Entrench Caller buffs the warrior's passive mitigation by 8%, this stacked on to passive resistances gives the warrior very good survival power against all damage types as well as supports the team.
    -Passive Reaver/WL tanking talents make the warrior extremely durable.
    -Rally Command is an extremely powerful shout that can exponentially increase the survival power of both the Warlord and the entire raid.
    -The weakness of this build is against snares, as the Reaver Break free only effects control abilities. With high valor the warrior can choose vindicator over VK as a 0 pt. soul for a strong CC removal option.


    THE THE GOLDEN RULE OF A WARCHON:

    There are very few Warfronts that don't involve team vs team zergs, the more players that clash, the stronger that the Warchon becomes. Multiple teammates and enemies give the Warchon multiple lifeleech targets and more teammates to buff the killing power of. There is one simple rule to the Warchon: NEVER EVER BE CAUGHT ALONE! You need a team to survive, the team needs you to feed them buffs and killing power. Never wander off by yourself, that is a rogue's job.


    UNDERSTANDING FIELD COMPOSITION:

    The Front:
    This is where melee clashes and the frontline units act as a wall to stop enemies from pouring into the mid and backlines. I say "a wall" because people are more enticed to attack the first target on the front (usually the first thing they can tab) and get stuck on it. Frontliners are there to draw an immense amount of fire from the enemy team while the mid and backlines bombard the enemy. Melee classes aim to break through the frontline or bypass it in order to hit higher priority targets, such as healers. The Warchon is best when alternating between the front and midline, as a Warchon it is important for you to know the composition of the battlefield and when to pressure the enemy. As a high survival class you want to stick out slightly at the 20m range to draw enemy fire, but retreat to mid when you are significantly threatened. While on the front it is important to know what classes are most effective on the frontline:

    -Justicar Based Clerics or MASH builds
    -Chlorolocks
    -Rogues with RS Buffs
    -Lemmings
    -38 VKs

    All of the above are extremely hard to kill units that should probably not be prioritized as primary targets. Any melee based classes should be disarmed if they attempt to push through the front or if they teleport into the backline. As a frontliner you want to draw fire while supporting your team. If you are highest on damage taken and least on deaths, you are doing your job. You want the enemy to waste killing power on you while your team (hopefully) attacks the right targets.

    The Midline:
    This is simply the gap between the frontline and midline. The Warchon is charged with controlling this area.


    The Backline:
    This is where the primary AoE casters are, the fan out Marksmen, and the Primary Healers are. The Backline is comprised of a team's highest threat targets, backline targets should be regularly displaced and pulled out of the positioning by a Warchon using Sergeant's Order, then rooted. Backline targets are usually marked by good teams and should be the primary focus of a Warchon's Spotter's Order. Backline units that will be seen include the following:

    -Doubelcast Locks (deep investment warlocks and doms that sHOULD NOT BE CONFUSED WITH CHLOROLOCK TANKS! THESE ARE EXTREMELY HIGH THREAT TARGETS THAT WILL DECIMATE YOUR TEAM WITH DEVOURING SHADOWS)
    -Stormcallers
    -Fan out Marksmen spreading vamp
    -Dedicated Healers
    -Bards (Bard/RS "invincibards")
    -Cabalist Bombers


    THE PLAYSTYLE OF A WARCHON:

    The first thing a Warchon needs to do is buff with the following:

    -Binding of Affliction
    -Cutting Distraction
    -Void
    -Aspect of the Fallen Hero
    -Crest of the Abyss
    -Enraged Essence


    Make sure to cast them in descending order, as the list goes from least important buff to most. First buff cast, first removed. In this casting order, Binding will be removed first and enraged last.

    The Warchon can actually play a good role as a combat initiator at the frontline. The Warchon arms to stay at the 20m range and uses the following primary attack macro:

    PLAGUE MACRO:
    #Show Soul Sickness
    cast Plague Bringer
    cast Soul Sickness
    cast Infestation
    cast Necrotic Wounds

    This primary macro should target the largest clump of enemy players in order foster strong self-healing. This macro will build attack points extremely fast, the majority of the points should be dumped into the following buffbot macro:

    BUFFBOT:
    #show call to entrench
    cast call to entrench
    cast call to battle
    cast spotter's order

    This will consistently keep the team at 5% damage reduction and add immense amounts of spellpower and attackpower to the raid.

    When initiating combat for the first time, the first thing a Warchon should do is put up commands if the clash is large. Assault command goes up first, and with enranged esssence, this increased raid damage by 20%, which will decimate the enemy team. If the Warchon's team becomes heavily pressured and immediately is pushed back, Rally Command goes up next, then Aid. When players die the DEBUFF FROM THESE COMMANDS IS REMOVED! ALLOWING A PLAYER TO REGAIN THE BENEFITS OF A NEW COMMAND SHOUT ONCE THEY REJOIN COMBAT! This is very important to know, and you will likely be spamming commands on CD if your team is consistently losing players to deaths.

    The Warchon also is charged with displacing enemy units from the backline to front. You want to catch healers first, then doublecasters (Deep Warlock enemies or Stormcallers), then marksmen.

    The primary mode of displacement is the following macro:

    PULL:
    #show Sergeant's Order
    cast Sergeant's Order
    cast Pin Target

    This will pull the enemy into your frontline from their backline and usually result in a teamkill if you are able to get spotter's on them fast. You want to wait until three attack points then pull and IMMEDIATELY spotter's after pin target. Most of the time this will absolutely destroy the pulled target.

    ABOUT SPOTTERS:

    This is the single most terrifying debuff to put on an enemy player in the game. People have no idea how effective SO is in PvP. Having this stuck on you is worse than lingering wounds. If any more than 3 people with high damage focus fire hit a spotter's target, that target is absolutely 100% dead, even if they are a p8 healer. This is your primary tool for decimating enemies. Displace, spotter's, then watch them burn.

    ALL MARKED TARGETS SHOULD BE HIT BY SPOTTERS!

    A sound tactic is to first buff up your team with both calls, then mark up enemies with spotter's order and hit Assault command once the targets have been tagged by SO. Most of the time, the enemies' marked healers will immediately explode if focused or if standing in AoE. 20% extra damage to a target with spotter's is a guaranteed deathtrap. The enemy's most prominent healer or damage dealer (usually a stop caster) should be immediately pulled into the friendly frontline, rooted, then tagged with SO.

    If you are in a premade, everyone should be assist targeting off you. The rate at which assist trained targets die when hit by SO and then focused is almost instant.

    HOLDING THE LINE:

    While the Warchon is responsible for buffing the team and marking key targets for death, the Warchon is also responsible for holding the line and preventing the enemy team from crushing the allied frontline. The Warchon does this by absorbing damage (if being healed), disarming enemy players that make it into the backline (aka blink rogues, and RS/NB 44/22s, and Lemmings). When the frontline is overrun, the Warchon can invoke the last man standing policy and burn Locked Down in order to freeze the enemy team and stop them from pushing. Enraged essence is also used for this purpose. This is useful when stopping an entire enemy team from catching a WF flag runner. However, this tactic is dangerous and I call it the last man standing because the Warchon remains behind to hold the line and disrupt the enemy, essentially sometimes becoming a sacrifice for the overpowered allied team to fall back and regroup.

    GRADUATE FROM BEING A LEMMING:

    In 1.5 and 1.6, tanking is the future of warriors until our horrible physical damage and PvP survival as a dps is fixed. A warrior that is a pure DPSer with no survival power (lemming) contributes very little to the team and dies over and over if not pocket healed. Even if they are pocket healed, their effectiveness is limited by just how good other damage dealing classes are. Warriors are much better off graduating from lemmings and playing a team support Warchon or a 38 Thinking Man's build with a mindset for team support. This metagame for warriors seems like it will continue into 1.5 and warriors attempting to be lemmings will find themselves simply overshadowed by other high damage classes (especially with mages being buffed), and turning into dogchow at the front when they are bombarded by high damage elemental attacks.

    A Warchon, can supervise the frontline and still stay at safe 20m distance. Even with lemmings in the group, the lemmings help to temporarily draw fire while the Warchon megabuffs the team. Once rolling with grisly works, the Warchon becomes an effective wall into stopping and managing frontline assaults with a little bit of cross healing. A Warchon stays alive longer than other pure DPS builds, constantly contributes to the team by enhancing classes that are simply better than lemmings at killing targets, and 100% guarantees key target kills by displacing key targets and placing the most lethal debuff in the game (Spotter's Order) on priority targets.

    Other than a 38 VK, which is highly effective at caster shutdown and is also a support, there are no other warrior builds that are lemming based that can be effective in this meta. A rogue or high damage mage, or chlorolock, or MASH will frontline better than you, sometimes deal more damage than you, and either slip away from combat, escape the frontline with high damage prevention shields, or simply self heal. You will lose every single time you are pitting in a frontline against these superior classes.

    Don't be a lemming, embrace the support mentality and you will start raking in the favor and impacting the well being of your team.

    As sad as it is, this is the stat of warriors, this is all we are good at now, and this is one of the few playstyles in which a warrior contributes significatly to an allied team.
    Last edited by Lunacresia; 11-10-2011 at 02:59 AM.

  2. #2
    Rift Disciple Painstouch's Avatar
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    From a PvE tanking perspective, this warchon idea of PvP playstyle actually fits to my idea of gameplay and with the tips provided in your guide have actually convinced me to step foot into a warfront again, after getting tired of being a "lemming" and being zerged over and over again on lower ranks...


    A well made guide, thanks!

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    Sword of Telara MealRain's Avatar
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    Very Impressed, Nice Job
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    Ascendant Bloodbourne's Avatar
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    I would suggest taking at the least, creeping death. You spec for soul feast and neglect what can potentially be your biggest asset for survivability. Master of the Abyss is also good, though not needed (Best if used with a RB build for Enh Burst). Otherwise, not bad. I personally tank in PvE but for some reason, I hate tanking in PvP. I actually go for a more "Glass canon" approach (though lately, I feel like a glass pellet gun).
    Misterwar <-Virus-> 5/11 Warborne <Yakisoba> 5/11 Warborne <Apotheosys> 0/11

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    Ascendant Rottweiler-STi's Avatar
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    I didn't roll a warrior to basically play like a bard or kite ppl around in 38vk I'm sticking to 51rb when I duo with my brothers 51lock and 38/28 with my healer friend. Ill play an alt or quit before I spec or play support.
    Last edited by Rottweiler-STi; 11-10-2011 at 06:45 AM.

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    Ascendant Hodor's Avatar
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    Yo, I like your write up of the PVP meta and I agree whole heartedly. The warrior is in a very weird place right now because:

    We're stuck with 20 range while everyone else has 30. This might lead one to believe that we're the best brawlers (front line or otherwise), except that isn't true, rogues are much better brawlers due to their intense burst damage and defensive cooldowns; all of which we lack.

    We have the worst self heal options yet are the most reliant on healers in warfronts, who usually refuse to heal due to it "not being fun", getting gangbanged from target marking, and getting less favor from healing then they would from DPSing. These are all things that *need* to be fixed to bring healers back to the table. Warriors NEED healers.

    We have huge power generation problems so we can't even accurately gauge our true potential DPS.

    The only things warriors TRULY bring to the table right now is:

    Fearbomb
    Lingering Wounds**

    Fearbomb has the potential to help incapacitate an enemy front line, especially if it's coordinated with other warriors.

    **Lingering wounds is an uncurable heal debuff but currently it is being overwritten by fell blades. Fell Blades are curable. Essentially any marksman on your team spamming Fan Out and proccing Fell Blades is going to hurt your team because they are overwriting your uncurable LW with cleansable FB. Stop this, Rogues! This situation needs to be fixed so Warriors can use it again.

    Okay so back to your build. I really like the idea, the pull+pin target, the buffs, etc. seem sound. The whole point is to win the warfront, because winning gives you twice the prestige and you level to r8 twice as fast.

    What I really wish would happen is that they would fix Subdue..

    Because Subdue in a build like this would be incredible.

    21 Reaver for survivability + building points at range
    32 WL for team support - use those points towards team buffs
    13 Vindicator for Subdue - protect your healers
    Last edited by Hodor; 11-10-2011 at 06:59 AM.

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    Rift Chaser Lunacresia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bloodbourne View Post
    I would suggest taking at the least, creeping death. You spec for soul feast and neglect what can potentially be your biggest asset for survivability. Master of the Abyss is also good, though not needed (Best if used with a RB build for Enh Burst). Otherwise, not bad. I personally tank in PvE but for some reason, I hate tanking in PvP. I actually go for a more "Glass canon" approach (though lately, I feel like a glass pellet gun).
    I experimented with creeping death, it's actually a horrible skill. The damage dealt at max rank is absolutely pathetic and for a 2min CD it only lasts for 10 seconds. The life steal from it is very minimal and it is designed to be a snare, which it also fails at because each tick of the DoT procs DR, causing you to force every enemy to become immune to snare effects after the first 3 ticks.

    You get a sliver more than the usual soul sickness healing, immunize 10 enemies against snare effects (when weakening essence is much more effective), and at rank 4 it deals 239 death damage over 10 seconds. For a 2min CD, it just doesn't seem worth it.

    If anything I'd take the reaver fear over it, but in my experience that fear just gets broken too easily.

    For some reason as well, I am getting more healing from soul sickness than creeping death. While soul sickness tends to hit about 63+ on a target, I am getting numbers along the lines of 30-45 off creeping.
    Last edited by Lunacresia; 11-10-2011 at 07:06 AM.

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    Rift Chaser Lunacresia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soulsurfing View Post
    Yo, I like your write up of the PVP meta and I agree whole heartedly. The warrior is in a very weird place right now because:

    We're stuck with 20 range while everyone else has 30. This might lead one to believe that we're the best brawlers (front line or otherwise), except that isn't true, rogues are much better brawlers due to their intense burst damage and defensive cooldowns; all of which we lack.

    We have the worst self heal options yet are the most reliant on healers in warfronts, who usually refuse to heal due to it "not being fun", getting gangbanged from target marking, and getting less favor from healing then they would from DPSing. These are all things that *need* to be fixed to bring healers back to the table. Warriors NEED healers.

    We have huge power generation problems so we can't even accurately gauge our true potential DPS.

    The only things warriors TRULY bring to the table right now is:

    Fearbomb
    Lingering Wounds**

    Fearbomb has the potential to help incapacitate an enemy front line, especially if it's coordinated with other warriors.

    **Lingering wounds is an uncurable heal debuff but currently it is being overwritten by fell blades. Fell Blades are curable. Essentially any marksman on your team spamming Fan Out and proccing Fell Blades is going to hurt your team because they are overwriting your uncurable LW with cleansable FB. Stop this, Rogues! This situation needs to be fixed so Warriors can use it again.

    Okay so back to your build. I really like the idea, the pull+pin target, the buffs, etc. seem sound. The whole point is to win the warfront, because winning gives you twice the prestige and you level to r8 twice as fast.

    What I really wish would happen is that they would fix Subdue..

    Because Subdue in a build like this would be incredible.

    21 Reaver for survivability + building points at range
    32 WL for team support - use those points towards team buffs
    13 Vindicator for Subdue - protect your healers
    This is exactly what I plan to do once subdue is fixed. Also in 1.6, Reaver is becoming the highest mitigation tanking soul in the game, making reaver based survival builds in PvP incredible for staying alive.
    Last edited by Lunacresia; 11-10-2011 at 07:10 AM.

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    Rift Disciple
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rottweiler-STi View Post
    I didn't roll a warrior to basically play like a bard or kite ppl around in 38vk I'm sticking to 51rb when I duo with my brothers 51lock and 38/28 with my healer friend. Ill play an alt or quit before I spec or play support.
    Essentially, I agree with this. ^

    While I do have a tank spec (VK / PAL) I use situationally and generally agree that every Warrior should have one available, my DPS, as inferior to other callings as it might be, is still valuable in a team setting. Especially when the team is lacking heal debuffs and burst pressure to take down hard to kill callings, like Wardens and RS/NB Rogues. Does it have problems and is it too vulnerable to other callings? Absolutely.

    My opinion is that Trion needs to fix us. Period. No excuses. In the meanwhile, I spec DPS for premade WFs, and tank hybrid for world PvP so that I can survive Sin Rogues. In the end, spec what you enjoy. If you're not having fun, either reroll (like many have done lately), or quit. But don't feel you have to roll with a tank spec 24/7 just to be effective with your calling.
    Graymane the Reaper
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    this is a very good idea for a build i will have to check this out. although alot of people will laugh at you playing a tank in pvp what they dont understand is the impact you have on team support and what you bring to the table. i understand the metality in wanting to "actually kill things" but surviving and enhancing the team is also a good place to be . especially when protecting mages and clerics, affording them the opportunity to free cast and decimate the other team.

    The only thing warriors lack is a healing ability i have always been a big proponent of making BM a Healing Soul "Justicar Like" maybe by adding a phase that turns Bleed damage into Raid healing, this i think would make Beast master a really good thing to bring into a warfront.

    Either way the above build looks interesting and i am willing to try it out!!


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    Rift Chaser Lunacresia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mournblood View Post
    Essentially, I agree with this. ^

    While I do have a tank spec (VK / PAL) I use situationally and generally agree that every Warrior should have one available, my DPS, as inferior to other callings as it might be, is still valuable in a team setting. Especially when the team is lacking heal debuffs and burst pressure to take down hard to kill callings, like Wardens and RS/NB Rogues. Does it have problems and is it too vulnerable to other callings? Absolutely.

    My opinion is that Trion needs to fix us. Period. No excuses. In the meanwhile, I spec DPS for premade WFs, and tank hybrid for world PvP so that I can survive Sin Rogues. In the end, spec what you enjoy. If you're not having fun, either reroll (like many have done lately), or quit. But don't feel you have to roll with a tank spec 24/7 just to be effective with your calling.
    While there is nothing stopping people from playing "Lemming" builds, from a mechanics standpoint, the DPS role of a warrior contributes very little and is filled with player frustrations.

    Against any kind of metagame frontline class such as:

    Chlorolock
    MASH clerics
    44/22 NB/RS

    The warrior loses out indefinitely. Some of these builds are virtually unkillable by a warrior, who as a frontline melee class, is unable to even breach the frontline of the enemy team.

    While anyone can play a pure dps role if they choose to, the effectiveness of those builds from a team standpoint is severely lacking.

    A more disappointing aspect of this is that 1.6 has not been confirmed to change anything other than tanking trees while mages are getting a massive buff. An even scarier thing is that bards are getting Jeopardy, their own version of spotter's order. With the existence of spotter's in a bard build, a RS/Bard with defensive shields (invincibard build) may actually be able to perform the same role that the Warchon does, with more survival power because of RS superiority, AND be able the heal the team, effectively taking support away from warriors as well.

    While we want to believe that we can continue playing lemming builds, and we can, the solid truth of the matter is that this meta isn't changing anytime soon and that we have to adapt as players or bring down the team's efficiency.

    While P8 warriors have more freedom to run lemming builds and gear dominate many other players, entry level players under P6 will find a lemming build almost impossible to make effective.

    If someone believes they can make it through the month of 1.6 for 1.7 undefined warrior changes that's fine. But I can tell you, even working a fulltime job I can probably make at least a P4-5 rogue in that timeframe.

    To be honest, it really looks like Warriors will not have a PvP future for a very long time.
    Last edited by Lunacresia; 11-10-2011 at 07:37 AM.

  12. #12
    Rift Chaser
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    While this spec sounds great on its face, the bottom line is: if you're on the front lines, even with this amount of mitigation and tricks, you will get taken down. You'll die without massive dedicated healing, and I've seen it countless times. Sure you'll have your moments... but generally... there are far more targets that would need to be "sergeant'd" to the front and pinned than you can possibly manage prior to being eradicated. I've sat in wfs with close to 1k valor in a full tank spec and 11+k hitpoints only to be evaporated by high damage locks and rogues. Your claims of being "unkillable" are completely false to be honest.

    It really is a no win situation, and that being said, I'm with Rott. I'd rather have mobility and the ability to get my kicks bashing in some noobs with a high RB build than relegate myself to support, ESPECIALLY given the typical competence levels you see of everyone else on your team in a PUG WF
    Last edited by furo; 11-10-2011 at 07:43 AM.

  13. #13
    Soulwalker
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    Default Ok then.

    I've tried everything else so far in the slog from R1 to R5 where I am now. It really is a pride swallowing, very unrewarding death march.

    It's quite disheartening to see that the best way I can help my team IS TO NOT QUEUE. I was prepared to run a subdue build, to protect my healers and just play support. That, as we all know, is horribly broken. Worse still, Trion has changed the meta game in an even more insidious manner: On my cluster, it's not uncommon to go an hour or more and not see ANY clerics...and those you do see are DPS. Most mages are in All or Nothing DPS builds, and nearly no rogues EVER bard.

    Why?

    Simple. None of them can be reliably protected. So you best get your licks in, and hope to win some awfully stacked war of attrition...where the side with the most DPS rogue variants usually win.

    So, thank you, OP. For presenting me with something else I can try to support my team. Sad state where I have to be a half assed bard and hope my squishies can protect themselves.

    But hey, we've got plate mail. So it's balanced.

  14. #14
    RIFT Guide Writer Sekhmet The Fierce's Avatar
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    Problem is Subdue does not proc from AoE taunts, and this is intended. Subdue got ninja-nerfed and Atrius himself confirmed that Subdue not working from AoE taunts and only from ST taunts (though currently bugged to not work from any taunts whatsoever). I doubt Subdue is going to be fixed to how it was before, so I don't see how Subdue will actually be worth 13 points now. 13 Vindicator doesn't really get you any other decent goodies anyway.

    As for this build though, the concept behind it is sound. I've been playing 38VK/28RB as a anti-caster support and general AoE sponge, because unless there's someone screwing around with that backline, the team who can AoE and heal the most wins. 8 seconds of delicious silence followed up by locking down the main marked healer is a big big assist to the team, especially when you have the survivability to do so.

    The thing is though, that is your entire utility, annoying casters and getting them to try to focus on you so the rest of the team can pick up on burning people down. This build, however, would allow you to create a burn-focus, and generally buff people up. It makes for a great build for a PvP raid leader, since they can then focus on directing a team and putting the appropriate buffs/debuffs. I'm sure this will be an excellent premade build, though as for its effectiveness in PUGs, that will depend on whether people actually listen.
    "Wer mit Ungeheuern kämpft, mag zusehn, dass er nicht dabei zum Ungeheuer wird. Und wenn du lange in einen Abgrund blickst, blickt der Abgrund auch in dich hinein."
    He who fights with Monsters should look to it that He himself does not become a Monster. And when you gaze long into an Abyss, the Abyss also gazes into you.
    Friedrich Nietzsche

  15. #15
    Ascendant Hodor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sekhmet The Fierce View Post
    Problem is Subdue does not proc from AoE taunts, and this is intended. Subdue got ninja-nerfed and Atrius himself confirmed that Subdue not working from AoE taunts and only from ST taunts (though currently bugged to not work from any taunts whatsoever). I doubt Subdue is going to be fixed to how it was before, so I don't see how Subdue will actually be worth 13 points now. 13 Vindicator doesn't really get you any other decent goodies anyway.
    Does subdue currently proc from any ablities?
    Is there any way to test, such as a duel? Or do you have to be in a warfront.
    ty

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