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Thread: Updated 2.3 Rogue BIS list

  1. #1
    Ascendant Hodor's Avatar
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    Cool Updated 2.3 Rogue BIS list

    Section 1: Introduction.

    Hey all,

    I've made some significant updates to the BIS list and filled most the tabs.

    My idea for this list is to keep it at raid level items as much as possible. Therefore, I will not be putting many world or dungeon drops unless it is raid quality and would be used on a raid. I want this list kept clean for when the tier 2 drops from the new 20 man begin rolling in. I already over did it in some sections which will need to be cleaned up in the future.

    If you have a drop not listed but you want to know how it compares, use your google account to make a copy (file > make a copy) and you can enter your numbers in the "user defined" portion of each equipment section.

    Speaking of drops, if you find something interesting post it here.

    The melee and ranged weapons sections are incomplete because I am missing a lot of verified information. See below for how you can help. That said, until they are complete, you should use them as a rough guide, and not gospel. In the interim until I get weapon dps weights for some specs, I am using a constant of 5 to add weight to the weapon dps. It is within weapon dps "tiers" that stats would take precedence. Since a single spec should have an overall single weapon dps weight, I feel replacing this in the interim with a constant should give a semi accurate rating. The alternative being don't include weapon dps in calculations, and only sort by stats, so I chose the former.

    Section 2: How you can help.

    Help me make this thread one stop shopping when it comes to Rogue equipment. I am in need of the following:

    1. Weapon DPS weights for NB-SIN, 41 Tacman, and Bard - check weights page.
    2. Weights for assassin and ranger (Other than CP to pet cap, then stack AP) specs - check weights page.

    Section 3: Important references for this thread

    41 Tacman weights:
    http://forums.riftgame.com/game-disc...ft-v2-1-a.html

    Relic essence proc frequency information, original (closed) thread:
    http://forums.riftgame.com/game-disc...ml#post4306437

    Further relic essence proc information, procs not getting buffed by spec talents:
    http://forums.riftgame.com/game-disc...e-inquiry.html

    Section 4: Link me to the list already!

    Short link:
    http://www.tinyurl.com/roguebis2-3

    Long link:
    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AucrPyZFyzTcdEF4YnF5dmY2d3pCeUZhODlFM0loW kE#gid=0
    Last edited by Hodor; 07-25-2013 at 07:45 AM.

  2. #2
    Telaran Zboq's Avatar
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    Great job!


    One question about earth relic essence tho:

    Does it really only affect melee crit and therefore is useless on rogue range specs?

  3. #3
    Shadowlander
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    It works on Ranged as well. On this instance I think "melee crit" refers to a crit from physical damage.

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    Rift Disciple Dragonz's Avatar
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    Thank you for compiling all this Hodor.
    -Smarted the Awesome

  5. #5
    Champion of Telara Nnnxia's Avatar
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    ...

    HODOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOORRRRRRRRR!!!!


    /echo

  6. #6
    Shadowlander
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    Could you rework your calculations on the procs referring to attack power? I don't mean to sound "stingy" but the procs on the greaters are buffs which grant 81ap, 103cp, or 129pc; that being said, stat buffs are not affected by other buffs or talents--they are additive, not multiplicative.

    So, going by stat weights, the 81ap proc is not giving 81 stat weights, or anywhere near that, since the attack power granted is not affected by talents or raid buffs such as flaring power-- both of which (correct me if I am wrong here) are commonly included in the calculation of stat weights.

    For example, the 61NB spec gains an additional 30% attack power, so right off the bat you could think of attack power granted by buffs as at most 0.7 as good as raw attack power (AP granted by gear). A quick and dirty calculation for the 81AP proc for 61NB would be [0.6*81*0.7=~34]. Other viable specs as of now and on the PTS, such as 61RNG and 61SIN, also have major increases to raw attack power--over 20% in both cases.

  7. #7
    Ascendant Hodor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fattslice View Post
    Could you rework your calculations on the procs referring to attack power? I don't mean to sound "stingy" but the procs on the greaters are buffs which grant 81ap, 103cp, or 129pc; that being said, stat buffs are not affected by other buffs or talents--they are additive, not multiplicative.

    So, going by stat weights, the 81ap proc is not giving 81 stat weights, or anywhere near that, since the attack power granted is not affected by talents or raid buffs such as flaring power-- both of which (correct me if I am wrong here) are commonly included in the calculation of stat weights.

    For example, the 61NB spec gains an additional 30% attack power, so right off the bat you could think of attack power granted by buffs as at most 0.7 as good as raw attack power (AP granted by gear). A quick and dirty calculation for the 81AP proc for 61NB would be [0.6*81*0.7=~34]. Other viable specs as of now and on the PTS, such as 61RNG and 61SIN, also have major increases to raw attack power--over 20% in both cases.
    There is a hack so to speak if you modify the proc uptime field you can get desired results..

    However I am working on a solution but need the assist of other rogues. PTS is down, I have no idea what current best builds are. But this is a quick recollection of live AP contribution.

    61 assassin/10mm/5nb- 20%
    NB SIN- +10% ap
    61nb - +30% ap
    61 Ranger/12 SIN/3nb- 6%
    61MM (10 SIN, 5 nb)- 25%
    Tacman- 15% ap
    61 bard/10mm/5nb- +25% + 40% from 5 stack reverberation (not sure how the 40% is handled, no time to test atm- someone want to help?)

    If anyone wants to double check these #s for me I'd appreciate it
    Last edited by Hodor; 07-31-2013 at 01:59 PM.

  8. #8
    Shadowlander
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    Not sure about Bard (never, ever use it), but those other numbers you mentioned are indeed correct assuming you meant 26% for Ranger and not 6%--5/5 Steady Hand is 20%, +6% from 3 points in NB or RS.

  9. #9
    Ascendant Hodor's Avatar
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    Thanks for the catch - I looked over every spec 3x and *still* missed that 20% talent.

    Okay I've implemented this information but I *really* need Rogue Community feedback here if you think this is correct.

    First of all the formula is actually not 81 * .7 * .6 for 61 NB.
    According to a BIS/math wizard I know in a class far far away, you actually take 81 and divide by 1.3. 100% + 30% ap bonus. You may then multiply by whatever you feel the proc uptime is, like .6 or 60%. So the numbers are slightly different, but similar, to what you noted.

    I have also added the base lesser value to the greater stat proc value, but this broke sortability.

    The changes have the net effect of making the sandstone relic greater bis for 61nb only by a *tiny* margin. But the relic ap proc greater hailshard is still bis for other listed specs except possibly bard**.

    Update with changes has been uploaded, please inspect.
    Report anything back to this thread.
    Thanks

    **PTS access is still down but I can't log in so Bard is a big fat question mark right now, I still need to research how that 25% + 40% AP bonus works. Is it a flat 65% bonus? Is there some strange funky bonus method going on here? I know not - so DON'T take these bard greater recommendations at face value just yet.
    Last edited by Hodor; 08-01-2013 at 12:13 AM.

  10. #10
    Shadowlander
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    It is quite a shame no one has uploaded stat weights for 61SIN or 61RNG yet, but I can imagine the Sandstone would be 2nd BiS for both those specs, as they both have large AP bonuses. Frankly, I would do the stat weights myself, but getting peeps to hang around doing nothing but buffing you for a few hours is a lot easier said than done...

  11. #11
    Ascendant Hodor's Avatar
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    PTS finally allowing me back on today so I did some testing.

    Bard:

    Raw AP: 3176 **
    ** Zero'd out my PA, cancelled all my buffs. Set bard to 0, NB to 0, mm to 0. Equipment only.

    Golem Foundary buffed AP: 5622
    61 Bard / 10 MM / 5 NB spec, Equipment, Golem Foundary raid buff and no consumables, PA still zero'd out, 5 stacks of reverberation, plus increased firepower proc. This is the MAX AP I could get.

    Umm.. 5622 is 77% more then 3176.
    I got some other strange results, like when I added 5 NB my AP went from 3176 to 3480. Not really 10% as the talent states. More like 9.5% extra. You would figure a rounding issue would leave you somewhere closer to 10%.

    Tacman*:

    Earlier I hypothesized that due to torrents not proccing the greaters, there is a proc uptime break even point of around 51% between the sandstone and hailshard relic greater procs. At 51% they have the same rough value as each other.

    Now due to the flipping annoying PTS tactician changes I was unable to get 41/35 to parse correctly to get an idea of how often they would proc. It didn't seem very good to be honest. If it did proc off emp bolt it never got a refresh and was down again for a while. So if you're running this spec, you're probably not going to get many procs and might want to opt for the sandstone for the better base "always on" stats.

    I got some decent testing in on 44tac/28mm/4nb using energy alteration. With a ton of finishers plus necrotic core being part of the rotation, it seemed to proc much more. And even refreshed the proc at times. I can't give you a solid percentage yet but I did find out the following:

    Greaters will proc off:

    Dropping necrotic core (First tick only, even if you are nowhere near a target)
    Necrotic or empyrean bolt
    Necrotic or empyrean ray

    Greaters will NOT proc off:

    Autoattacks (autoattacked for 3 min)
    Infernal Beam (infernal beam'd for 3 min)
    Torrents

    In conclusion I think the sandstone relic greater has some value for the tacman spec. One should never gear for a spec like tacman, but it's one more spec where the sandstone may be a good choice. And with prices substantially cheaper on the AH for the crit proc, it's definitely something to think about

    If someone can tell wtf was going on with bard I'd appreciate it.

    *I used my cp proc greater as a reference, as that's the only one I have.
    Last edited by Hodor; 08-02-2013 at 04:13 PM.

  12. #12
    Soulwalker
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    are 4 CP lesser better than 2 CP and 2 AP for 61 sin?

  13. #13
    Soulwalker
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    Default Sabbo?

    whats about the 54Sab/22Assa specc?
    have nothing fount in the BiS List for these spec.

  14. #14
    RIFT Guide Writer Nynja's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by goer View Post
    whats about the 54Sab/22Assa specc?
    have nothing fount in the BiS List for these spec.
    its similar to 61 sin..i didnt do the math for such a niché spec but if i have to guess it would be 1 ap : 0,6cp:0,3 pc
    Last edited by Nynja; 12-20-2013 at 09:38 PM.
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  15. #15
    Ascendant
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    Is this going to be updated at all or is there another up to date rogue bis list out?? And no riftscene isn't up to date either. Neither has trinkets from DH or even T2 trinkets.

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