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  1. #61
    RIFT Guide Writer Burninalways's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by meph1111 View Post
    I agree the purge might be pretty useless for t2 content where there is literally one fight where you need to purge, it doesn't mean it won't come in handy in tier 3 wink wink
    Put this way you can have a purge in one of the best dps specs losing a bit of dps, or have another class go to a lesser spec and lose a lot of dps.
    Last edited by Burninalways; 02-12-2014 at 09:33 AM.
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    true but what about the 2.2394% dps loss from actually doing the purge, omg

  3. #63
    RIFT Guide Writer NotTrev's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lgw View Post
    Just putting a few things out here due all the discussion. (Don't mind me if some stuff already got mentioned...)
    * 2/3 Flesh Rot is a very minor DPS gain even for ST, we're talking in the lower double digits. That is due the fact that Flesh Rot not only boosts duration but also noticeably the damage and SP coefficient of Necrosis, which people often ignore. And Necrosis is sitting around 7% in usual parses, where the 1% SP is around a 0.7% (give/take) damage boost for Lock.
    * For pre-loading DOTs you should pop SLD with an appropriate time before the pull, unless you can duel. You might even pre-load Conflux depending on the fight.
    * You never should use VBar with Contaminate. Doing the order right you can have one with ED and two with SLD. The same you should not use Persist with SLD, but one with ED and two with Contaminate. All together that usually works better on a 1:05min duration (which more often than not is zero difference over the whole fight), also you can squeeze it into 1min with perfect-everything, or if you substitute 1 Persist with SC/DP. NB: This will of course not work if you try to force the 13/7 refresh dogma.
    * Usually not relevant, but sometimes getting the Purge at the cost of 1% SP is well worth it. Say Kyzan with the upcoming MM change. Hell if you struggle with mechanics you can even grab 8% run speed in Harb, still better then a dead DPS.
    * Mortality is actually a pretty damn good AOE if you can make it fit. Best is naturally to pop it the end of ED, but as long as you at least have SLD active it's fine.
    * You have a ST and an AOE fear... Believe it or not, those are useful at times.
    * I found it useful to macro Draining Bolt, Desecrate and Void Bolt (in that order) after VBar, so I can easily use them with a proper damage buff and/or have a good finishing button. Mind that you still should monitor their CD individually.
    Necrosis jumps up in damage, but so does every other dot with 1%sp, in addition to vb/desc/db/bl/vbarr.
    Also, your vbarr macro sounds scary :O I'm a button masher so I would inadvertently clip vbarr if ever desc/db are off of cd. And speaking of which, it sounds like you're holding those? If you hold desc for 10-15secs to use it with sld rather than contam you're operating at a loss.

  4. #64
    RIFT Guide Writer TheGrinnz's Avatar
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    I have a purge in 5 of my 8 mage specs. only missing one in Harbinger, stormcaller and pyro, when I even keep those specs around (always keep harb ofc). skip the purge, wipe the raid. if you have 20 role slots you have room for both variants though

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by NotTrev View Post
    Necrosis jumps up in damage, but so does every other dot with 1%sp, in addition to vb/desc/db/bl/vbarr.
    Yea, but the DPS gain is way less than ppl make it. Low double digits.

    Also, your vbarr macro sounds scary :O I'm a button masher so I would inadvertently clip vbarr if ever desc/db are off of cd. And speaking of which, it sounds like you're holding those? If you hold desc for 10-15secs to use it with sld rather than contam you're operating at a loss.
    I don't mash, so that helps. ;-)
    Desecrate lines up 100% with VBar. DB is also at chosen position in a few other macros to make sure I get it off ASAP, but most usually with at least SLD.

    And contrary to Conflux you only don't lose as much as it seems, as you can still throw out a Void Bolt (which, in fact, ain't that bad of a Contaminate filler due Crystal). Count the difference of SLD-DB+Cont-VB vs SLD-VB+nothing-DB. Besides it rarely is off CD more than 3-4s
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  6. #66
    RIFT Guide Writer Allmightyone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lgw View Post
    Just putting a few things out here due all the discussion. (Don't mind me if some stuff already got mentioned...)
    * 2/3 Flesh Rot is a very minor DPS gain even for ST, we're talking in the lower double digits. That is due the fact that Flesh Rot not only boosts duration but also noticeably the damage and SP coefficient of Necrosis, which people often ignore. And Necrosis is sitting around 7% in usual parses, where the 1% SP is around a 0.7% (give/take) damage boost for Lock.
    * For pre-loading DOTs you should pop SLD with an appropriate time before the pull, unless you can duel. You might even pre-load Conflux depending on the fight.
    * You never should use VBar with Contaminate. Doing the order right you can have one with ED and two with SLD. The same you should not use Persist with SLD, but one with ED and two with Contaminate. All together that usually works better on a 1:05min duration (which more often than not is zero difference over the whole fight), also you can squeeze it into 1min with perfect-everything, or if you substitute 1 Persist with SC/DP. NB: This will of course not work if you try to force the 13/7 refresh dogma.
    * Usually not relevant, but sometimes getting the Purge at the cost of 1% SP is well worth it. Say Kyzan with the upcoming MM change. Hell if you struggle with mechanics you can even grab 8% run speed in Harb, still better then a dead DPS.
    * Mortality is actually a pretty damn good AOE if you can make it fit. Best is naturally to pop it the end of ED, but as long as you at least have SLD active it's fine.
    * You have a ST and an AOE fear... Believe it or not, those are useful at times.
    * I found it useful to macro Draining Bolt, Desecrate and Void Bolt (in that order) after VBar, so I can easily use them with a proper damage buff and/or have a good finishing button. Mind that you still should monitor their CD individually.
    I'm curious to know what you are suggesting by doing the order right. The only decent way I found to do what you are suggesting is already in the guide (see Alternative Cooldown management). Delaying EDs or Void Barrages doesn't seem like it could give any type of gain.

    2/3 isn't so minor, even less so bellow 50%. But I guess that's up to what % of your dps you want to call minor. All in all it doesn't matter, a gain is a gain and I already mention what 3/3 is good for. Both specs are valid.

    Purges, stuns, fears and any non-dps ability aren't mentionned because my intent was to show people how to dps above anything else. Any player that take 15-20min to read this entire guide will probably take 1 min to look at their spellbook anyways. I may add a note next time I update the guide.

  7. #67
    lgw
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    Quote Originally Posted by Allmightyone View Post
    I'm curious to know what you are suggesting by doing the order right. The only decent way I found to do what you are suggesting is already in the guide (see Alternative Cooldown management). Delaying EDs or Void Barrages doesn't seem like it could give any type of gain.
    Something along these lines:
    Code:
    .0s -- .5s -- 10s -- 15s -- 20s -- 25s -- 29s/30s -- 35s -- 40s -- 45s -- 50s -- 55s
    SLD -- ... -- Con -- ED. -- ... -- ... -- .../SLD -- ... -- ... -- Con -- ... -- ... 
    VBa -- ... -- Per -- ... -- VBa -- ... -- Per/... -- ... -- VBa -- ... -- Per -- ...
    That's "about" it. Naturally you start the fight at the ED point after loading up. Slight timing differences are hard to tell here and depend on the fight n stuff anyway.
    Usually its more like VBar -> 7s -> 13s -> VBar. But I play mostly by intuition and don't let timers dictate my play, esp with involved boss mechanics.

    Now if you look at your breakdown, you will see where the most damage comes from... and that is (1) hard hitters (VBar etc) and (2) DOTs. Getting the most out of those is a good way to max DPS.

    2/3 isn't so minor, even less so bellow 50%. But I guess that's up to what % of your dps you want to call minor. All in all it doesn't matter, a gain is a gain and I already mention what 3/3 is good for. Both specs are valid.
    My point is, it is way less than what people make it. When parsing on PTS with the changes (using live gear!), the average over a bunch of parses was certainly <100 DPS. That's in the realm of statistical error.
    And it does matter, because the setup mentioned above consistently performs better for DPS for me, and having +2s to perfectly sync that SLD/VBar after some boss mechanic actually is important. (OC you can still SC/DP at the cost of a GCD ............)

    Purges, stuns, fears and any non-dps ability aren't mentionned because my intent was to show people how to dps above anything else. Any player that take 15-20min to read this entire guide will probably take 1 min to look at their spellbook anyways. I may add a note next time I update the guide.
    Mentioning them because they are more important in raids (and experts) that what people give them credit for.
    Last edited by lgw; 02-12-2014 at 05:47 PM.
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  8. #68
    RIFT Guide Writer Allmightyone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lgw View Post
    Something along these lines:
    Code:
    .0s -- .5s -- 10s -- 15s -- 20s -- 25s -- 29s/30s -- 35s -- 40s -- 45s -- 50s -- 55s
    SLD -- ... -- Con -- ED. -- ... -- ... -- .../SLD -- ... -- ... -- Con -- ... -- ... 
    VBa -- ... -- Per -- ... -- VBa -- ... -- Per/... -- ... -- VBa -- ... -- Per -- ...
    That's "about" it. Naturally you start the fight at the ED point after loading up. Slight timing differences are hard to tell here and depend on the fight n stuff anyway.
    Usually its more like VBar -> 7s -> 13s -> VBar. But I play mostly by intuition and don't let timers dictate my play, esp with involved boss mechanics.

    Now if you look at your breakdown, you will see where the most damage comes from... and that is (1) hard hitters (VBar etc) and (2) DOTs. Getting the most out of those is a good way to max DPS.
    This made me smile because it's almost exactly what the alternate cooldown rotation is. It's actualy slightly less good if the fight end between x:09 and x:24 just because the ED is earlier.

    http://assets-cloud.enjin.com/users/...al/2397420.jpg

    Quote Originally Posted by lgw View Post
    Mentioning them because they are more important in raids (and experts) that what people give them credit for.
    Fair enought, I will add them next edit.

  9. #69
    RIFT Guide Writer NotTrev's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lgw View Post
    Yea, but the DPS gain is way less than ppl make it. Low double digits.
    Yes, something like 28 for my DT on Contam. But 28 on 5dots(including BL, not necrosis) every 2secs adds up. 28x5=140/2=70dps. Vbarr is in the range of 60-70dmg difference per swing(4ticks) for 240-280dmg difference per cast. NT goes from 8603 to 8550 max tooltip values, another 53dmg(modified by SL/ED) every 8 seconds. Same goes for Desc, Void Bolt, DB, Conflux, etc etc.

    Every gcd is reduced, for what, in a 3/3 spec? The same low double digits gain you mention, but on Necrosis. With contaminate, 1867 vs 1906, a 39damage gain every 2secs(or 19.5dps) over 2/3's Necrosis.

    (3/3)19.5 dps vs (2/3)70dps + 240-280dmg gained on vbarr + 20-50damage gained on every filler spell you have.

    3/3 gets demolished by 2/3 in pure ST, and it's easier to see that when adding up individual ability values rather than parsing which implements RNG and human error.
    Quote Originally Posted by lgw View Post
    I don't mash, so that helps. ;-)
    Desecrate lines up 100% with VBar. DB is also at chosen position in a few other macros to make sure I get it off ASAP, but most usually with at least SLD.

    And contrary to Conflux you only don't lose as much as it seems, as you can still throw out a Void Bolt (which, in fact, ain't that bad of a Contaminate filler due Crystal). Count the difference of SLD-DB+Cont-VB vs SLD-VB+nothing-DB. Besides it rarely is off CD more than 3-4s
    I don't know what you mean by contrary to conflux, but 3-4s per DB adds up to being a lot. Count the difference of missing 2-3 DB vs 2-3 voidbolts. Using a typical Lock fight, Volan is a 10minute fight, or 600second fight. 600/30=20. 600/33.5=17.9. Holding onto DB on average of 3.5 secs means you miss three out of the possible twenty. Is that loss worth your SLD-DB+Cont-VB vs SLD-VB+nothing-DB?

    To answer that I think you'd have to know how many times a fight you run into a situation you are about to DB on contam and count the losses of 'no sld'. My DB is hitting for 12.2 on average, and hitting for 14.6 on average with SL. My contam vbs average for 8700, my SL vbs average for 10.3k.

    Considering the 25% uptime on contam, lets say 5/20 of my DBs don't get buffed. One instance of SLD-DB+Cont-VB vs SLD-VB+nothing-DB is: 14.6+8.7=23.3 vs 10.3+12.2=22.5 or 800 in favor of holding DB until SL. Five instances of SLD-DB+Cont-VB vs SLD-VB+nothing-DB would be 800x5=4000 damage or 6.6666dps over 10mins. Having to use 3x vb in place of 3x db(17 vs 20) is 12.2-8.7=3.5k damage or 14.6-10.3=4.3kdamage depending on if it lands during sl:d/contam. If 1 out of 3 land during contam it would be a total difference of 4.3+4.3+3.5=12.1k damage or 21.166666dps over 10mins.

    As you can see, both are miniscule differences, but math suggests simply using it on cd is better than holding it an average of 3.5 seconds. And it's less to wrack your brain about.

    Now, there are things you could probably nitpick over with my above math/theorycrafting like lack of considering of ED or whether or not either of us will even be able to do 20 or 17 DBs in 10mins due to other priorities. I kept it to SL vs Contam because that's what we're talking about, ED is preceded and followed by SL, you don't have an option to mess that up really. And whether we can actually get 20/17 doesn't matter so much as the thought process behind it, if I get 18, you'll have 15 trying to delay them, for instance. Even if you were very good about your DB timings and it came down to me only having one extra DB, that itself almost makes up the 4000 you gain from flopping vb/db priority on 5 dbs.

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Allmightyone View Post
    This made me smile because it's almost exactly what the alternate cooldown rotation is. It's actualy slightly less good if the fight end between x:09 and x:24 just because the ED is earlier.

    http://assets-cloud.enjin.com/users/...al/2397420.jpg
    That is correct. But you only mention it as "alternative" when it should be the default to boost VBar and DOT always in the best-possible ways.
    With your particular distribution I see two small problems. (1) You want to Persist as close to VBar as possible, to get more 30% and less 20% ticks (Cont vs SLD). (2) It usually aligns way better with fights and raid CDs to put VBar at the start of ED, and you are less at the rist of losing your ED boost to some mechanic. On the plus side you do gain the equivalent of 1 extra ED-boosted GCD.

    Quote Originally Posted by NotTrev View Post
    *snip* As you can see, both are miniscule differences, but math suggests simply using it on cd is better than holding it an average of 3.5 seconds. And it's less to wrack your brain about. *snip*
    Now that napkin math is correct. But I urge you to go back to my original statement, where I mentioned that I had DB behind VBar for finishing purposes (think of Thraxx or burning add situations).
    In practise there are two approaches for good DB usage:
    (1) pure DPS: In that case it is ideal to align it such that you either use it at the end of ED and at the start of your 2nd SLD per minute, or at the start of ED and at the end of the 1st SLD per minute (depending on how you structure those blocks). That will give it virtually no CD based loss, and boost it at 40% + 20%, and once you got that timing right, it will stay in that 30/30 blocks anyway.
    (2) utility: You accept that real fights vs dummys (Krizzix *rofl*) are way more involved and, among other things, involve DPS breaks, movement and burns. As such I have DB as an instant and higher damage attack at different positions lower in my macrocs (moderately high as a filler / DPS behind CD, and lowing as kind of the last filler in my VB spam macro). This still provides me with many usages per fight of DB, but it also gives me a good instan when I need one and/or a high DPS attack when I need one, without putting any actual thought into when to use it (outside maybe holding it so I don't use it straight before Thraxx's burn).
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  11. #71
    RIFT Guide Writer Allmightyone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lgw View Post
    That is correct. But you only mention it as "alternative" when it should be the default to boost VBar and DOT always in the best-possible ways.
    With your particular distribution I see two small problems. (1) You want to Persist as close to VBar as possible, to get more 30% and less 20% ticks (Cont vs SLD). (2) It usually aligns way better with fights and raid CDs to put VBar at the start of ED, and you are less at the rist of losing your ED boost to some mechanic. On the plus side you do gain the equivalent of 1 extra ED-boosted GCD.
    (1) I'm open to a suggestion but I don't think you are going to find anything. This is the best I could find.
    (2) No. As long as you use both persist and Vbarr during ED it doesn't matter which is first. I would need to test this but I think if you start the channel in ED each tick will have the increased damage even if you lose ED after the first tick. It could actualy be better to use Vbarr at the end.

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Allmightyone View Post
    (2) No. As long as you use both persist and Vbarr during ED it doesn't matter which is first. I would need to test this but I think if you start the channel in ED each tick will have the increased damage even if you lose ED after the first tick. It could actualy be better to use Vbarr at the end.
    Correct, this is the overall rotation I've been using http://postimg.org/image/flp1wf043/. I use 3/3 spec (mostly because i'm a lazy PoS) and it gives ~28 seconds of ED dot uptime, 20s contaminate, and only 12s SLD. Additionally it gives 17 seconds worth of effective nuking time during ED since you will carry through via the VBar channel. While you do get one VBar that is under contaminate, the napkin math says it still comes out ahead this way as opposed to centering the rotation around hitting every VBar with SLD.

    If you are dualing then this is extremely easy, and chances are the archon is wanting someone to dual anyways, so it may as well be you. Pop a Neddra's Essence and load up. Precast SLD ever so slightly as the tank is giving his countdown to pull. Once applied to boss, VBarrage and then you only have ~3 seconds that you need to fill before entering into the rotation.

    If you're not dualing, then this does postpone the rotation by a few seconds, but even that should be negligiable. And there is a sub 10% chance that ED would have come back around at the end of the fight to get an extra use out of it, and even during that slight chance you will be under SLD for nuking during that timeframe anyway so at worst you lose 5 seconds of +20% dmg at the end, and that only happens less than 10% of the time.

  13. #73
    RIFT Guide Writer Allmightyone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vexare View Post
    Correct, this is the overall rotation I've been using http://postimg.org/image/flp1wf043/. I use 3/3 spec (mostly because i'm a lazy PoS) and it gives ~28 seconds of ED dot uptime, 20s contaminate, and only 12s SLD. Additionally it gives 17 seconds worth of effective nuking time during ED since you will carry through via the VBar channel. While you do get one VBar that is under contaminate, the napkin math says it still comes out ahead this way as opposed to centering the rotation around hitting every VBar with SLD.
    Smart, very smart. I will test this and see what kind of number I can come up with. I wouldn't be surprised if you actualy stumbled on a better dot management method. Thanks for sharing

  14. #74
    RIFT Guide Writer Allmightyone's Avatar
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    Wait nvm. Persist have a 20 sec cooldown. That doesn't work at all.

  15. #75
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    You can persist at 41 seconds instead, in reality thanks to random bits of lag or some spells using a 1 sec gcd and some using 1.5 second there is no perfect 'I will cast this ability exactly at XX second' and this chart is something i just threw together to illustrate the possibility of much higher than 20second uptime during ED.

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