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Thread: New Warlock Guide

  1. #76
    Telaran Aylen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NotTrev View Post
    What? Sorry, but if you haven't noticed 7 guilds have killed Abom already. The race is already over.

    This type of response is something you'd expect to hear from a multiple WF guild, in regards to the last boss of a tier, when that boss still hasn't be killed yet(for instance, Addition, pre Abom kill, if the topic was Abom related), not from a random forum goer in a presumably low tier guild(considering you haven't finished collecting the gear yet necessary to meet your chloro sub-soul requirements) about a Warlock rotation. You've been dodging ACT requests over your chloro-subsoul>harb-subsoul controversy, too.
    Not sure what hole you live in or who pissed in your cereal but here it goes...

    Where in my post did it say anything about the race to the final tier boss vs worldwide or even region based guilds? Pretty sure it clearly speaks of our ACT records being private vs public, that is completely up to the leadership of a guild and little to nothing to do with overall progression.

    Furthermore we're more progressed than the majority of the community and the only fight I've not personally done is Abom.

    Finally, LEARN TO ******* READ. Is reading really that hard, complicated, difficult, tricky? Holy hell, the top of the guide states VERY CLEARLY that I am currently USING the Chloro variant and that it yields MORE DPS than the Harb one with the APPROPRIATE RATIOS.

    The gear requirements isn't necessarily having X amount of stats or X amount of BiS or X amount of T2 or whatever the case may be. The gear requirements are more about a INT - SP ration IN COMBINATION with certain levels of CP. I've been running this spec for a while and I'm actually nearly full BiS, have a few more things to get.

    Now the thing you're trying to quote and manipulate, if you go back and READ IT, is in reference to something I wanted to test but simply don't have the resources at my disposal to do so at this time.

    In order to properly theorycraft you should be able to change your stats around in significant ways to test different things, I have enough "extra" gear to do this in some regards but not for the specific thing I was referring to.

  2. #77
    Telaran Aylen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Allmightyone View Post
    Crit rng play no role whatsoever in determining a winner between 2/3 and 3/3 above 50%. Atrophy doesn't have a higher crit chance and if you're relying on it to push ahead it could really go either way which is how rng work. Void Barrage is always used on CD regardless of the build.

    If you refresh early while in ED, I do agree that this is necessary, you essentially take advantage of 2 out of the 3 possible 14sec atrophy hits. You do bring a good point though. It is better to do it that way if you play with 3/3. However, as slight as the difference is, it will not pull ahead of 2/3 on the dummy (unless the RNG gods favor you).

    2/3 is better single target.

    2/3 and 3/3 are arguably equaly useful in t2 raiding. Volan doesn't really make a difference (2m-2.5m of 2 target dotting vs 8m-9m of single target + Radiate doesn't use all 16s), Thraxx and Krizzix (if not Harb) are ST. Abom is the only boss that I would see 3/3 being a decent gain. Bottom line, go with your preference. It will only matter in forum PvP anyways.
    The reason I mentioned crit RNG is because when something crits it is multiplied against your CP so the harder hitting the base dmg is the harder it will scale when it is multiplied against CP.

    As for fights that take advantage of 3/3 over 2/3...

    Eggtenders
    Proteus
    Inyr'kta
    Abom
    Breaker
    Brothers - very slightly via refresh before switching platforms
    Volan
    Kyzan
    Salv
    Ultane

    Fights that take advantage of 2/3...

    Thrax
    Kaliban

    And for T1...

    3/3

    Gelidra
    Zav - Padding unless it's HM and you must kill the orbs, otherwise just conducers, small gain
    Twins
    Progenitor
    Kain
    Matriarch
    Regulos
    Jultharian
    Hydriss

    There are several others you will gain DPS but it's all padding pretty much so I don't count them.

    2/3

    Zav - Non-HM, Non-Padding
    Crucia
    Goloch
    Falconer
    Cyril
    Dragon Queen
    Isskal
    Joloral
    Commander Jorb

    I don't believe I've missed any... If you wanted to completely min/max you should be in an appropriate spec for the fight but since most ppl don't want to switch around for various fights I do recommend 3/3.

    Not saying to never use 2/3 either... The fights where 2/3 excels it's very unwise to not use it since they are fights where the last bit of burn is the most important, like Thrax, and have no adds no other targets whatsoever and the first 50% isn't really a big deal.

  3. #78
    Telaran Aylen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Allmightyone View Post
    You cleaned up pretty good. I like the new you much better.
    Good, I truly don't mean to be a piss off but I am blunt, don't always consider the delivery of information as thoroughly as I do the information itself and get irritated easily with things I shouldn't.

    Although so far I'm quite happy, all of my predictions for the Mage class over the last few months have been spot on and the end result is I can MS Warlock and not only be viable but top the meters from time to time even.

    For those that are newer to the game, not all that long ago Warlock was not only not viable on anything but Progenitor and/or Kain, but it was actually very low on the meters and those who even thought of using it were chastised. I've even heard of several instances where a Mage would show up to a guild raid and get gkicked at the end of the night because he came in as DPS trying to use Warlock and it was a running joke of ***** trying to use Warlock.

    I've played as a Warlock for many years in multiple games, Rift, WoW, EQ2 to name some, and I've just always preferred its play style and honestly Warlock soul was the biggest reason I had to start playing Rift, all I wanted to do was hop in some BGs and DoT ppl up, CC them and pew pew. After hitting max level from PvP I realized the end game for PvP was dead at that time, still isn't too good now, and Warlock really wasn't where it was, Pyro, Necro & Ele performed much better, as well as Dom and Chloro.

    For a good while it was also common to have literally every class in the game above Mage, our only viable DPS specs were Pyro & Harb and even then we were outgunned by other classes, not to say we couldn't win but it was much more rare. Now I see much more purple at the top of the meters which I think is awesome and I think once these Dream Orbs hit the Chloro variant will scale much harder and possibly even harder than any other Class/Soul in the game as I can't think of any other buff that is larger than our 25% INT buff from NA - am I forgetting a buff from something? We just might become completely dominant again as we once were!

  4. #79
    RIFT Guide Writer Allmightyone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aylen View Post
    As for fights that take advantage of 3/3 over 2/3...

    Eggtenders
    Proteus
    Inyr'kta
    Abom
    Breaker
    Brothers - very slightly via refresh before switching platforms
    Volan
    Kyzan
    Salv
    Ultane

    Fights that take advantage of 2/3...

    Thrax
    Kaliban
    Hum what? So you use Warlock on fights that clearly favor other specs too? You shouldn't be a Warlock DPS. You should be a Mage dps. Some fights such as Krizzix don't really matter since there's isn't any disconnect or anything to truly favor 1 spec over the other (aside from a very small dps output). So let's see that list again.

    Eggtenders > all ST unless you scumbag the adds so 2/3
    Proteus > Harbinger all the way, if not, 2/3 because the only thing that truly matter is the burn phase.
    Inyr'kta > Harb is equaly good or better but 2/3 because you are single target. Only need 1 Harbchon and 1 or 2 Bladedancer for aoe. Anything more is wasted, specialy if you are progressing (My guild hit enrage because of this) But it's arguable because like volan there's a small amount of double target doting.
    Abom > 3/3, Agreed
    Breaker > Harb all the way (Blademark on shielded guys), if not, 2/3 because there's no aoe over 14 secs or double target.
    Brothers > I haven't been dps on this one for a long time (Harbchoning) but your logic sounds right. 3/3
    Volan > Doesn't matter for reason stated in a previous post.
    Kyzan > 2/3, no aoe over 14sec or double target.
    Salv > I must admit I do like to scumbag aoe on that boss too.
    Ultane > Do you even Blademark?
    Kaliban > 2/3
    Krizzix > 2/3, epeen ;)


    Not going to do t1 because you can do w/e you want and play terrible spec and still be able to clear it.

    So as I said, 50/50 for bosses where Warlock is actualy the best, or close to the best spec to use.

  5. #80
    Shield of Telara
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    I'm compiling a collage of my favorite quotes. Here is what I have so far.



    Quote Originally Posted by Aylen View Post
    The information in my guide is old
    Quote Originally Posted by Aylen View Post
    For those that want current and accurate information there is my guide.



    Quote Originally Posted by Aylen View Post
    PLUS an additional 2% base Crit at MINIMUM but at the gear level required for this ratio it should be more like 3% - 4%
    I would love to meet the mage with 3286 - 4294 unbuffed INT to get that 3-4%. When you find him, please let me know so I can shake his hand.


    Quote Originally Posted by Aylen View Post
    Now that the foolishness has been corrected I'm done on here for now

    Tired of seeing bad mages on this forum try to teach others how to be as bad as they are... Your specs are WRONG, just flat out wrong, sorry but they are and you're bad for not knowing that.

    Just curious, do you even know what your abilities do??

    I wouldn't expect it to make sense to you, for many reasons.

    I've done the math, done the testing and quite extensively, I've given the entire community the end result to do as they wish.

    Clearly you cannot read, go re-read and you'll realize I have and am using the spec now and it pulls ahead of harb significantly.

    P.S. If you guys did more testing, more math and more thinking and a little less talking and assuming you'd probably be better players
    Sounds like someone has a case of the Monday's.


    Quote Originally Posted by Aylen View Post
    is above 25% which gives a 1 in 4 chance and though it may seem small this happens more than you'd think and yields a very nice gain.
    I think a 25% chance happens roughly 25% of the time...


    Quote Originally Posted by Aylen View Post
    Math is hard, yo.
    I actually agree with this one!



    Quote Originally Posted by Aylen View Post
    3/3 Flesh Rot IS INDEED a DPS gain over 2/3, it's not huge on ST, but it's there.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aylen View Post
    So, in conclusion I do agree that 3/3 is NOT always the best solution BUT the better MAJORITY of the time it is.
    Is that a subtle way of admitting you were actually wrong?



    Quote Originally Posted by Aylen View Post
    Furthermore the big kicker here that many are overlooking are crits, I did a handful of parses with both 3/3 and 2/3 on a dummy, self buffed, no consume and only once did 2/3 pull ahead and it was just good RNG more than anything else. On some parses 3/3 barely pulled ahead and on others it was a rather noticeable difference.
    Crit percentage is the same in both specs, and will not cause one to suddenly be better than the other.



    Quote Originally Posted by Aylen View Post
    According to current stats on PTS and some theories floating about 5 Chloro may be the dominant build for everyone once Dream Orbs are introduced with the INT - SP ratio on them
    Current PTS have stat ratio's of give or take 2.4 ratio, which actually helps harb more than chloro. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...=sharing#gid=5



    Quote Originally Posted by Aylen View Post
    Vex's numbers are pretty and in a perfect world with a stand still and nuke fight with a sub 50% burn phase, no adds, no aoe, no multi-target of any kind - they would be correct. Reality is those numbers don't actually work on most fights
    The question was phrased as being very specifically tailored to pure ST dps, so of course there is no aoe or multi targeting. Stand still fight only? 2/3 and 3/3 are almost identical specs and have absolutely no difference in their mobility. And no burn phase is necessary at any % health. Even in a most perfect scenario 3/3 gains at most sub 20dps from atrophy, which is more than easily offset by 1% higher SP. The spec is ahead in ST at all stages of the mobs health. Really you just said a bunch of random words that don't apply to anything to circumvent you needing to admit that 2/3 is the better ST spec

    Quote Originally Posted by Aylen View Post
    For further clarification on the specs I have 1 INT to 2.1 SP and just over 1k CP the Chloro variant yields ~800 DPS more as well as more consistent DPS.

    I would gladly share my parses with ACT on actual raid bosses but at this time my guild would prefer to keep them confidential at this time, that may change in the future, not sure.
    lul what? Nobody care's specifically about a raid parse. Both specs have the same amount of mobility for a raid setting, and neither has any extra burst than the other. Just show us a dummy parse....

  6. #81
    Telaran Aylen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Allmightyone View Post
    Hum what? So you use Warlock on fights that clearly favor other specs too? You shouldn't be a Warlock DPS. You should be a Mage dps. Some fights such as Krizzix don't really matter since there's isn't any disconnect or anything to truly favor 1 spec over the other (aside from a very small dps output). So let's see that list again.

    Eggtenders > all ST unless you scumbag the adds so 2/3
    Proteus > Harbinger all the way, if not, 2/3 because the only thing that truly matter is the burn phase.
    Inyr'kta > Harb is equaly good or better but 2/3 because you are single target. Only need 1 Harbchon and 1 or 2 Bladedancer for aoe. Anything more is wasted, specialy if you are progressing (My guild hit enrage because of this) But it's arguable because like volan there's a small amount of double target doting.
    Abom > 3/3, Agreed
    Breaker > Harb all the way (Blademark on shielded guys), if not, 2/3 because there's no aoe over 14 secs or double target.
    Brothers > I haven't been dps on this one for a long time (Harbchoning) but your logic sounds right. 3/3
    Volan > Doesn't matter for reason stated in a previous post.
    Kyzan > 2/3, no aoe over 14sec or double target.
    Salv > I must admit I do like to scumbag aoe on that boss too.
    Ultane > Do you even Blademark?
    Kaliban > 2/3
    Krizzix > 2/3, epeen ;)


    Not going to do t1 because you can do w/e you want and play terrible spec and still be able to clear it.

    So as I said, 50/50 for bosses where Warlock is actualy the best, or close to the best spec to use.
    I didn't recommend to use Lock over Harb, I said what I'd do as lock on each of those fights, since this is a lock guide not a how to mage in general.

  7. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aylen View Post
    I didn't recommend to use Lock over Harb, I said what I'd do as lock on each of those fights, since this is a lock guide not a how to mage in general.
    It's a logical fallacy because you are attempting to create scenarios where your spec is best, but you are limiting the potential pool from more specs.

    This is precisely how Seatin attempted to portray the 61 Inquisitor; he listed several fights where the Dark Water variant may possibly fall behind but neglected to mention you should actually run Shaman on those encounters.
    Last edited by Ahov; 02-10-2014 at 12:09 AM.

  8. #83
    Telaran Aylen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vexare View Post
    I'm compiling a collage of my favorite quotes. Here is what I have so far.












    I would love to meet the mage with 3286 - 4294 unbuffed INT to get that 3-4%. When you find him, please let me know so I can shake his hand.



    Sounds like someone has a case of the Monday's.




    I think a 25% chance happens roughly 25% of the time...




    I actually agree with this one!







    Is that a subtle way of admitting you were actually wrong?





    Crit percentage is the same in both specs, and will not cause one to suddenly be better than the other.





    Current PTS have stat ratio's of give or take 2.4 ratio, which actually helps harb more than chloro. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...=sharing#gid=5





    The question was phrased as being very specifically tailored to pure ST dps, so of course there is no aoe or multi targeting. Stand still fight only? 2/3 and 3/3 are almost identical specs and have absolutely no difference in their mobility. And no burn phase is necessary at any % health. Even in a most perfect scenario 3/3 gains at most sub 20dps from atrophy, which is more than easily offset by 1% higher SP. The spec is ahead in ST at all stages of the mobs health. Really you just said a bunch of random words that don't apply to anything to circumvent you needing to admit that 2/3 is the better ST spec



    lul what? Nobody care's specifically about a raid parse. Both specs have the same amount of mobility for a raid setting, and neither has any extra burst than the other. Just show us a dummy parse....
    Failed troll is fail, try reading what you write next time then read what others have written, attempt to comprehend then form an opinion & response.

    The only part I'll actually reply to is the Dream Orbs part in which case you can't even read the spreadsheet you linked! The ratio on the orbs is 2.4 INT to 1 SP which is amazingly GOOD for Chloro and not so much for Harb since Chloro begins to take off ~1 INT to 2.2 SP and the higher the INT goes and the lower the SP goes in the ratio the better the spec works.

    As for the rest of your post, there's nothing constructive to come from replying to it so I won't bother, I do adore the fanboy in you.

  9. #84
    Telaran Aylen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ahov View Post
    It's a logical fallacy because you are attempting to create scenarios where your spec is best, but you are limiting the potential pool from more specs.

    This is precisely how Seatin attempted to portray the 61 Inquisitor; he listed several fights where the Dark Water variant may possibly fall behind but neglected to mention you should actually run Shaman on those encounters.
    I'm not trying to create anything, the entire purpose for me writing a guide to begin with was of all the mages I knew none knew how to play warlock but wanted to once it was viable. From there I did some theorycrafting, a bunch of testing as well as asking others to test/parse/link parses from raids to get as much info as possible.

    Nowhere do I suggest people run Warlock all the time but I know there will be plenty of people who will. In fact the better part of this community, as with any MMO, plays casually and want to do decent DPS while not going overboard with complexity and would prefer play 1 spec so that they get comfortable with it and can pay more attention to the fights.

    As I stated earlier this is a Warlock guide, it is a guide to what I've found to be the best DPS as a Warlock and unlike Harb that simply doesn't work well at all for some fights the current Warlock can do very well on every fight which is why more and more people are flocking to it for their spec of choosing for Mage DPS.

    Finally 3/3 is the way to go more often than not, even counting only the encounters that Warlock is better than Harb.

  10. #85
    RIFT Guide Writer NotTrev's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aylen View Post
    Not sure what hole you live in or who pissed in your cereal but here it goes...

    Where in my post did it say anything about the race to the final tier boss vs worldwide or even region based guilds? Pretty sure it clearly speaks of our ACT records being private vs public, that is completely up to the leadership of a guild and little to nothing to do with overall progression.
    Where did I say your post said anything about the race? No where. I said that attitude only applies to such a thing, hence the lack of need for it. BTW, you can pull your own numbers out and link those separately, additionally, ignoring solo raiddummy requests has nothing to do with your guild.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aylen View Post
    Furthermore we're more progressed than the majority of the community and the only fight I've not personally done is Abom.
    Are you implying you're more progressed than I am? Is this a **** waving contest? Because Virus isn't more progressed than the guild I'm in.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aylen View Post
    Finally, LEARN TO ******* READ. Is reading really that hard, complicated, difficult, tricky? Holy hell, the top of the guide states VERY CLEARLY that I am currently USING the Chloro variant and that it yields MORE DPS than the Harb one with the APPROPRIATE RATIOS.
    Is my reading bad, or just my memory? I specifically recall you stating you couldn't give us a chlorosubsoul dummy parse because "you weren't yet finished collecting gear" for the appropriate ratios.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aylen View Post
    The gear requirements isn't necessarily having X amount of stats or X amount of BiS or X amount of T2 or whatever the case may be. The gear requirements are more about a INT - SP ration IN COMBINATION with certain levels of CP. I've been running this spec for a while and I'm actually nearly full BiS, have a few more things to get.
    So you're using an inferior spec, gotcha.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aylen View Post
    Now the thing you're trying to quote and manipulate, if you go back and READ IT, is in reference to something I wanted to test but simply don't have the resources at my disposal to do so at this time.
    You're going to have to be specific because I quoted you at least 4 times.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aylen View Post
    In order to properly theorycraft you should be able to change your stats around in significant ways to test different things, I have enough "extra" gear to do this in some regards but not for the specific thing I was referring to.
    So you meet the requirements? Then why not show the parses you speak of that shows chloro subsoul >>> harbsubsoul by 800dps.

  11. #86
    RIFT Guide Writer NotTrev's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Allmightyone View Post
    Brothers > I haven't been dps on this one for a long time (Harbchoning) but your logic sounds right. 3/3
    Even this one, adds die in 5-7seconds. You're never seeing the 1tick x 4 on the ravenous and persist(or sc/dp) before you swap sides will only net you one tick of necrosis(2k? 2500dmg?), while you lose 1%sp on all those spread dots and your st.

  12. #87
    RIFT Guide Writer Allmightyone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NotTrev View Post
    Even this one, adds die in 5-7seconds. You're never seeing the 1tick x 4 on the ravenous and persist(or sc/dp) before you swap sides will only net you one tick of necrosis(2k? 2500dmg?), while you lose 1%sp on all those spread dots and your st.
    I don't know the dps benefit of this type of target swaps. I just gave him the benefit of the doubt because I never experienced it and I don't know any better. I only use 2/3 anyways. That's the variation that feels better to me and I don't really care about the few lost GCDs when I multidot. That doesn't meen I'm not aware of the fights 3/3 would come in handy. 2/3 vs 3/3 doesn't make a noticeable difference in dps but something has to feed the forum pvp otherwise it'll become boring again in here.

  13. #88
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    This thread is relevant to my interests.
    Nope.

  14. #89
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    Spoiler!


    So you meet the requirements? Then why not show the parses you speak of that shows chloro subsoul >>> harbsubsoul by 800dps.
    Repetitively we have all asked for parses from Aylen, and yet no parses have every been shown.
    So I would say that Aylen can't show 5 chloro ever beating 6 harb, 90% of the time.

    In the end:
    Aylen please provide ACT parses of using both specs (5 chloro and 6 harb with 2/3) while solo on a raid dummy, not parses from bosses your been raiding, and your stats as well would be good.

    And just because it's you a video of you using each spec, with a clear view of the dps your doing; so we know you aren't messing up on purpose to make 5 chloro look better than it is.
    Last edited by Burninalways; 02-10-2014 at 01:59 PM.
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  15. #90
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    Fwiw i dont really want to say this or put fuel on the fire but i personally use the chloro variant.
    A few weeks ago i did 5 parses each and chloro came out ahead.
    Now that might be because i didnt play WL well back then (probably dont do now) but i still use 5 chloro.
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