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Thread: 4.5 Defilerocle (Offensive Support Hybrid)

  1. #31
    Shield of Telara Skiye's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aedynn View Post
    Out of all the classes we have sat players who played cleric the most since IROTP. We take cleric tanks but have sat them out of every other role when they wanted to play those roles. Possibly replaced 12 different clerics or had them switch to their alt in this expansion. They are pretty much a dead class. We do take experienced ones to carry alts though when we don't have space. It actually feels kind of dirty making them cleanse bot for our raid but they want to do it so.. we let them.
    I'm sorry, but if people playing clerics is a hindrance to you clearing content then either your clerics need some more practice there's something odd going on for your raids. Statistically cleric dps isn't far enough from mage to make a dimes worth of difference. And until the BOFORS spec came out for Rogues the difference in ST damage from rogue to cleric wasn't nearly as wide of a margin as it is now.

    You make it sound like cleric is so bad you can't raid with them. That isn't true at all. Any good cleric player will heal or dps well enough to clear content if they understand the nuances of what they're doing.

    I'd take a good cleric player anytime so long as they're flexible as far as roles performed, can follow instructions, and execute mechanics well.
    Last edited by Skiye; 03-07-2019 at 04:52 AM.
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  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skiye View Post
    I'm sorry, but if people playing clerics is a hindrance to you clearing content then either your clerics need some more practice there's something odd going on for your raids. Statistically cleric dps isn't far enough from mage to make a dimes worth of difference. And until the BOFORS spec came out for Rogues the difference in ST damage from rogue to cleric wasn't nearly as wide of a margin as it is now.
    Take some time and look up when Fervent Strike and Icy Blow was actually buffed. You will be surprised how far behind cleric was as an ST dps. I don't know what information you have gotten but it is straight up wrong and you can do the research to prove it.

    A matter of fact cleric was over 40% behind the top ST dps for majority of content released in this expansion. Now they are roughly 20%+ behind. Mage would suck too if they 1) didn't allow mage to be great without requiring soulpacks.. They can have best AEhealing with top dps, best support with top dps, and a great ST/AE spec without requiring soul packs. Cleric still need to buy.. soul packs to be wanted in every role. This is important. So many new players were sat because they didn't have those pay for souls in our guild when SFP became free to play. Cleric was a trap house. still is.. and noone should have suggested any other player to play it. Those who did contributed to the game failing in my opinion.

    You clearly can't acknowledge how detrimental it is to have a class this far behind when you release raid content and don't fix a class for this long. First, you force the cleric players into undesired roles like tank role to be wanted in raids which is what mostly every raid brought with them for most of the content. You can verify this information in Twitch, Rift YouTube Videos as well as look how many green names tanked for most of the content in the expansion on Prancing Turtle. Non tank clerics were the most shelved players in this expansion.

    Wardocle was the next most used role after in BOS only because it was best to make the rogue go NB/SAB for all bosses especially for those achievements which is considered content for many people as well as world first etc.The nerf was the most recent.

    Consider the grind increase in this expansion. It was not easy to gear up multiple characters as it was back then with planar fragment at an insane value and upgrade cost and grind soaring by up to 10 factors and having some of the worse RNG with upgrade drops which was a major complaint stopping players from multiclassing for a long time. There are still people without full preserver or overlord in our guild and they have been clearing BoS relatively every week for over a year. Back in early Rift I use to have at least 2 of 4 of the classes fully relic'ed out and even in SL relic PvP gear and relic PvE gear on 2 toons. As NT came along the grind wasn't so bad to keep having two classes but mostly we just had one class until primalist was released. Which was at the end of an expansion practically. Cleric was screwed in the expansion from looking at 1000s of factors and scenarios.

    Do you hear the excuses of the other players + yourself? You literally defend daily that it is okay for cleric to be the least competitive class when it contributed the most to Rift dying. Cleric was targeted for nerfs on purpose.. One big reason was to trick players into thinking they would balance the class, force them into tanking and then forcing them to switch. The same trick they played with rogue and primalist. Making primalist better than rogue but giving them an easier way to switch to them later on since they share some of the same bound on account loot so no having to double grind for some gear pieces. It was okay in your eyes because Primalist was PTW I guess?

    You don't get the ramifications of having a noncompetitive class which gets ignored for most content releases and I doubt you will ever see how detrimental the impact it had on guildies and the game as a whole. Many players quitting, lots of female players who played cleric with their boyfriends quitting or couples in general or friends quitting because they were the healers or support and now they were no longer wanted as healers or support since the beginning. Yes, we replaced at least a dozen clerics on that alone. We had 3 raids each week and most of our clerics graduated into tanking because that was the best roles for them since the beginning. They hardly exist in end game anymore. They only exist as alts to other players mains..And guess what... they still come along to tank because most of them have played these easy specs and can't play inquisitor well, don't know how to interrupt because of NB/SAB or Ele/Pyro who didn't have interrupts back then.. They had a dumb down playstyle with those classes. They still get sat relatively often but it is their choice because even they know they will never take cleric seriously until it is competitive or OP. They would bring in their main rather than deal with playing a wardocle or having to tank with their cleric in most cases. And defi.oracle isn't really wanted much in our raids as well.. and almost no cleric knows how to use it or wants to learn it..They were too dumb down by trion's one button specs for the other classes.
    Last edited by Aedynn; 03-09-2019 at 03:13 PM.

  3. #33
    Rift Chaser Shas's Avatar
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    Main dmg loss comes from the even dmg distribution which takes huge losses on encoutner which turn immune frequently. *flies away*

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  4. #34
    Shield of Telara Skiye's Avatar
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    My info on where cleric stands compared to other classes comes from PT data compiled by Bamul.

    My conclusion on clerics or lack thereof in your raids is from my experience in being in a raid guild that has 3+ clerics consistently and not really having too many issues clearing the content having them DPS/heal and not always tanking.

    Your assertion that there is some sort of dev conspiracy to make cleric players reroll other classes is laughable at face value.

    We agree that cleric could use some work. But good players are good and good players will find ways to be valuable to a raid regardless of what class they play. Even clerics.
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  5. #35
    Rift Chaser Shas's Avatar
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    +1

    If you let every SH procc run head first into a immune phase, surele it looks bad. It's undenieable that cleric do a little less damage than other classes - but.

    Take your raid dps,

    substract inquisitor dps

    take 4.8-5% (depending on more rog or more other dps specs)

    add the 5% to inquisitor dps. (might be around +300k)

    You can do the same with a Mystic tank etc to get a better idea about the 'worth'. (On Azranel, a Mystic tank does around 1.7m+ adding the dmg bonus he grants onto himself.

    Pseudo sup and Archont are the highest parsing specs with that calculation.

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  6. #36
    Ascendant Flashmemory's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skiye View Post
    Your assertion that there is some sort of dev conspiracy to make cleric players reroll other classes is laughable at face value.
    Well Ocho and Keyens joked about deleting cleric in live stream before SFP was released...
    Last edited by Flashmemory; 03-12-2019 at 06:34 PM.

  7. #37
    Shield of Telara Skiye's Avatar
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    Specifically addressing cleric in a truly meaningful way was always going to be a huge undertaking for any dev that was going to tackle the issues with the class. While I don't like it, I do get it.

    Clerics, like other classes got their band aid fixes before Trion went bottom up.

    I saw the Livestream when they joked about deleting cleric. I saw it as just their acknowledgement that they read Aedynns posts on the forums...
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  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shas View Post
    +1

    If you let every SH procc run head first into a immune phase, surele it looks bad. It's undenieable that cleric do a little less damage than other classes - but.

    Take your raid dps,

    substract inquisitor dps

    take 4.8-5% (depending on more rog or more other dps specs)

    add the 5% to inquisitor dps. (might be around +300k)

    You can do the same with a Mystic tank etc to get a better idea about the 'worth'. (On Azranel, a Mystic tank does around 1.7m+ adding the dmg bonus he grants onto himself.

    Pseudo sup and Archont are the highest parsing specs with that calculation.
    This logic makes no sense. By this logic, rogue should be doing less than inquisitor because eternal weapon bonus damage % which it adds in every spec rogue plays. Makes no sense at all. Not to mention that you are only considering ST DPS, not total DPS possible or AE dps. SH is on 15 sec. cd outside of refreshing your bogus long 2 min. making it only good for ST DPS. 2 min. CD with inquisitor that doesn't even align with the changes made to Archon buffs which come up every 5mins. which is one minute too short is another issue that no other class has to deal with. Cleric actually get worse over longer parses as a result. They have to manipulate DPS meter to automatically section off fights so that those who can't understand seem like they are doing good but overall they were worse performers.

    So much was overlooked with cleric by the developers. If you want to consider the effective dps a class can add to a raid you will have to include all those things and possibly the option of crit debuff. When correcting dps it is really simple. Souls with nearly the same identity should perform similarly in dps and functionality throughout each class. If a spec is pure ST with uncompetitive AE it should perform better than a spec with ST and AE in pure ST. This has been the guidelines forever. It was only when devs decided to change rules on the fly and allow for one spec in some classes to be best in all situations when problems started to happen. Having all these souls and only one spec for 99% of content was horrible design change but since there is no way out of this mess easily Gamigo devs should just give cleric a single spec that does everything as well instead of 6 terribly uncompetitive specs that are half-@$$ and underperforming by millions in AE, or 300-400K in ST.

    This idea you have that cleric is a little behind is wrong. They are a LOT behind. Bamul only includes ST DPS, not TDPS, not EDPS.. and because of the raid makeup differences with the bonuses from raid buffs, the average is skewed. In this case, the best way to determine if a spec is underperforming has always been the way it has been tested for over 5 years ... based on solo performance on a dummy parse and with resource management and playability considered.

    The only thing that is an outside factor to consider is if the bosses take more damage from certain damage types which can greatly skew results in favor of a weaker overall class. Even then it will not be balanced because they disqualify the potential damage a player can do to another player in PvP and other game modes. Searching for a way to look at cleric in a different or better "light" and justify its terrible competitiveness will only get you more in trouble because then you have to consider those same factors for other classes. It won't be fair to players who accidently chose that class when the devs have told them it was always about bringing the player not the class and it ended up being a big fat lie for years to them because they expect the devs to have the same ruleset for every class. J

    No, it is not okay to have DPS be so far apart with these many souls. This was a made up rule. DPS between souls inside a class was supposed to be different to promote different identities. Identities between classes should perform similarly and be within 5% of each other. That is exactly how the founding devs, including the dev who said bring the player, not the class, had always told their base was the plan. It was logical to everyone and everyone agreed except for those who had a mental delusion stuck on archaic holy trinity design when Rift offered a diverse soul system which each class can perform every role.
    Last edited by Aedynn; 03-12-2019 at 02:07 AM.

  9. #39
    Shield of Telara Skiye's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aedynn View Post
    Stuff
    This feels very circular at this point.

    We agree clerics could use some damage buffs. I don't think anyone disagrees with that premise.

    The premise that is just factually wrong is that you asserted earlier is that clerics should all be benched and can't be brought to raids to do anything but tank because it is too much of a hindrance to raid progression.

    While maybe not always optimal, cleric healing is perfectly fine to get the job done on any fight and Cleric DPS is close enough that it isn't a hindrance.

    To assert your points you decided to site general numbers you claim about pre Fervent Strike and Icy Blow changes. During the time you were unable to progress because of clerics. Well at the same time my guild with 3 clerics was clearing the same content.

    Then you toss out all the most recent raid data collected because it's single target. Well I hate to break it to you, but ST is the most important dps. Cleave is nice and looks great on RiftMeter, but is often mostly fluff that doesn't actually improve kill times in many fights.

    Anyway I'd like to ask. Have you tried this spec out? Do you have any actual feedback or comments on it? Otherwise please create a thread somewhere else to air the grievances about the class. I'll chime in and actually agree with you on most points outside "clerics are so bad you can't take them to raids."
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  10. #40
    Rift Chaser Shas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aedynn View Post
    [...] so that those who can't understand seem like they are doing good but overall they were worse performers.
    Here is something for your effort.
    4.5 Defilerocle (Offensive Support Hybrid)-a0qoj7z_700bwp.jpg

    Quote Originally Posted by Skiye View Post
    Then you toss out all the most recent raid data collected because it's single target. Well I hate to break it to you, but ST is the most important dps. Cleave is nice and looks great on RiftMeter, but is often mostly fluff that doesn't actually improve kill times in many fights.
    As Mage Chloro/Living Storm build you actually want trash allive since it provides more healing than they ususaly manage to hit. (61arbiter soloheal irotp2/4(with pulled trash), tdnm 1/4(with adds)) yadda.
    https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...-02_213856.jpg

    Arbiter which needs some targets to get the heals going. Cleaving the adds may would have been a wipe.

    Nothing worse than a dps palyer spaming Crossfire and whatever to fake up a number, doesn't know how to /cancelbuff Cycle of Air or running Plague Bringer on default. - to name examples of 'faking dps' as we used to call it.
    Last edited by Shas; 03-12-2019 at 10:00 AM.

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  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skiye View Post
    The premise that is just factually wrong is that you asserted earlier is that clerics should all be benched and can't be brought to raids to do anything but tank because it is too much of a hindrance to raid progression.
    Your small sample bias is what you can never get around which leaves every opinion you have going forward flawed and dismissive. Being known for skewing overall result by focusing on edge case and cherry-picked scenarios is ultimately why no one should ever take you seriously. Have you ever heard the old adage, "Just because you can don't mean you should?" It is a known fact that of all the classes, raid Clerics were, without a doubt, the class that ended up being funneled into the tanking role the most. The role that was designated to the Warrior with having two primary tanking souls and previously up to 4 tank souls at one point. As well, warrior was funneled into healing while cleric has (wait for it) 3 HEALING souls. Is this too complicated for you to understand? In what reality does this make any sense to the player?

    The percentage of clerics that raided did not end up growing it ended up shrinking because those that didn't want to tank ended up quitting the game or rerolling since they were not COMPETITIVE with the other classes in every other role. Period. We are talking about millions of TDPS and AE advantage other classes had over them.

    Here is some basic math that the dimwited management was tricked into accepting and thought most dim witted players would to. If 30 out of 100 cleric tanked that is 30% of the cleric population that tanked. Now if out of the 100 clerics 40 decided that they were uncompetitive and didn't want to tank quit the percentage of clerics that tank is 30 out for 60. What trion told you and there dimwitted managers was now 50% of the players that played cleric Tanked therefore they did not need to focus on other roles. This number probably grew to 80% of raid clerics until content was easy enough to clear while carrying dead weight.

    They did the same exact BS you are falling for with cherry picking scenarios. And this is why skewing results in this fashion is utterly destructive. Imagine your worker tells you that most the clerics tank so it doesn't matter to work on other roles but not telling you the reason why you loss nearly half the cleric population was because they were less competitive in all other roles to begin with. Mind is blown yet?

    Secondly, if you are in a competitive raiding guild or competent raiding guild the guild leader who wants to be competitive with other guilds is not going to bring a shaman over someone like a nb/sab or a puri over someone like linkchanter or dps chanter unless it is a last resort option at the time. We are talking at a time when replacing a cleric boosted overall dps over 1 million ST DPS as a healer + multiple millions with cleave etc.

    Your "good will" to the cleric doesn't actually make you a good person either because instead of throwing that cleric out after exhausting all options you will instead keep them and make your other 8 raiders struggle to carry. And if they are vastly more logical and see that just replacing cleric would excel progression by multiple folds they may even threaten to quit or find another guild leader who actually understands how imbalanced the classes were and how to take advantage of that imbalance. You may have a good heart but actually in this case you are being the selfish one to ask every one of your other raiders with common sense and logic to take a hit for the cleric who wanted to heal or dps.

    There is so much wrong with the way you think besides that as well. Even in your straw man example. Why bring 3 clerics to raid anyway? Choosing to bring 3 of any class to raid would cause too many problems within the guild. Just because you are forcing those 3-4 of the same class to fight over loot and putting cleric to fight over loot being the worse class in the game is possibly the worse thing a guild leader can do. If other classes are overpowered and doing nearly +3 tiers of damage ahead of the cleric why force the clerics to fight over gear. That is just ludicrous. Yes it sucks that Primalist and Rogue have fought over gear but it made a lot more sense to have them fight because they were already overpowered at that time. That is bad lead imo.

    Also, consider being stuck progressing in content when knowing a replacement would have boosted overall dps by million or more. Now consider making that long time raider a permanent who get stuck with a class that developers ignored while being told they are working on it. And consider what the other 8 players in the raid have to sacrifice to bring that player along when the devs say they are working to fix that class. What kind of impact it would have on their fellow raiders who are more competitive with other guilds or who don't understand how other guilds bring best in slot raiders and day 1 or week 1 clear those raids? That is another 8 players who have their own preference and ideals who over time eventually excepted that Trion devs were FoS because they failed to balance cleric for the good of the game and for their raid. In fact, guild members would even threaten to quit if they could not progress and compete with the other guilds at the same time leading to guilds falling apart which was the case for many guilds. Some clerics just quit because they saw they were a handicap to their guildies. I am sure raid leaders who have been around for ages can relate to this.No one wants to be stuck 2-3 months progressing on 1 boss when a slight change like replacing the cleric healer or dps would have them clearing the content in 1-2 weeks back then.

    I know from your personality you are a joy to work with because you can forgive and forget easily. I mean if all it takes is telling you we are working on things to make you feel better about years of neglected development ... your hired because I know you would probably work twice as hard for half the pay and I can throw you a 10 cent raise every 6 months while the person who actually argued for a better and fairer salary makes twice as much and does half the work. Sorry if I hurt your feeling but that is how you sound to me.

    Also, you talked about being good enough. Let me put this in perspective for you. Once you are able to clear content like now where you can even clear BoS with 9 players then a DEAD CLASS is good enough. . You are actually the one spewing vitriol when you say a class is good enough and it doesn't matter. Being competitive in a progressive MMO where you are playing with other players is what matters the most especially after they introduced excessive role, class and content locking features like in this latest expansion.
    Last edited by Aedynn; 03-12-2019 at 02:16 PM.

  12. #42
    Rift Chaser Shas's Avatar
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    What the *quack* is even going on. You're posting walls of text as an answer to a Forum post which literaly provides a gameplay option for clerics while nobody else seems to care doing it.

    A Mandelbrot set paradox.
    It repeats and loses itself in details which become the overall meta again making itself and everything around it obsolete in it's temporary relevants and predictability.
    Last edited by Shas; 03-12-2019 at 03:40 PM.

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  13. #43
    Ascendant Flashmemory's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shas View Post
    What the *quack* is even going on. You're posting walls of text as an answer to a Forum post which literaly provides a gameplay option for clerics while nobody else seems to care doing it.

    A Mandelbrot set paradox.
    It repeats and loses itself in details which become the overall meta again making itself and everything around it obsolete in it's temporary relevants and predictability.
    Our guild probably has the most alt players in Rift on NA. The players that roled cleric alts can't even play inquisitor correctly. How do you suppose they would feel about this spec? Many of them wouldn't even consider tracking 12 Kalerts + for a spec when they just came from a class that can perform well with just 3-5 buttons. Luckily we do allow melee in our raids so some clerics can shaman with the melee strats. But overall I don't find much clerics in the game that can inquisitor, wardocle or orafiler well at all. And practically every raid leader I know doesn't know the value of this spec. Lots of cleric tanks though. We never had any problem with healing to the point that puri was necessary as well. FK + linkchanter has been the go to choice if we did not have a second chanter.
    Last edited by Flashmemory; 03-12-2019 at 04:27 PM.

  14. #44
    Rift Chaser Shas's Avatar
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    You can easily 8 button Inquisitor putting 2x2 dots into blocks. I see what you mean.
    The sad point is that cleric usualy only use alot of buttons without really having much of a in depth rota. (slap x for y passive over t seconds)
    Comes down to the cleric legendaries being more of a 'leggy tactics' crutch than a beneficial addition to the class.
    You might be surprised how quick you get into Frootylööps. Torn picked it up @1.1m+ within minutes considering himself 'bad' over the wole duration.

    https://www.twitch.tv/videos/391332974

    Picked up from vague information and without any knowledge; thrown into cold water.

    Having so many subvariants of every spec this is what clerics do and ever did. Adapt a spec on the fly.

    In Rift you have two sorts of people. People who are usefull and/or fun to have around. Seems like the bad performance is a downward spiral from little bang for bucks- frustration- bad performance- hilarious numbers.
    You might be surprised how much your numbers gain the less you watch them and the more you are having a good time. Never ever reached the hps numbers on oc pala from the first day having the most fun with it.


    Once went 60 Ft pug in green tank gear(for hp) on Paragon/ Champ and somehow endet up on 't1' numbers (18k Gelidra 18 Zaviel 32k Brothers 17k Crucia) without a hint of where those numbers came from literaly running blue weps. Had a good time. Was a nice day. Hyped from that, guess what happened afterwards: the exact same thing happened on Cleric- without Grasping the Horizon) - If you feel like having bad rng, there might be something more holding you back than ingame stats.
    Last edited by Shas; 03-12-2019 at 04:57 PM.

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  15. #45
    Ascendant Flashmemory's Avatar
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    I don't know what you mean but my advice to the cleric is not to be so mixed up with the dps they achieve with the spec. It is an RNG dependent spec and being on cleanse duty only makes it that much more difficult to have good RNG because every cleanse is possibly an AA/MA/LIOB loss. Your top damage abilities. That is a significant DPS loss for being on cleanse duty with this spec! The DPS is variable 750K is low but ending a fight with 900K+ is still possible when not on cleanse duty.

    Secondly, that he may want to respec his wardocle. Yes, he possibly plays the best healing variant but most of the healing is wasted overhealing especially with competing other heals in the raid. I find if you retool wardocle you can get 200K-300K, possibly a bit more and it is better to focus on maximizing DPS than the healing portion of the spec as a result since it is an effective positive contribution to the raid while overhealing is wasted. Yes, you may look worse on the meter than other wardocles or other healers in the HPS but you will look better, in some cases 2x or 3x better than them on DPS allowing you to clear the content faster while having no problem to clear the content at all for the small change.
    Last edited by Flashmemory; 03-12-2019 at 06:22 PM.

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