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Thread: [Video] M*A*S*H Justicar/Shaman/Warden PVP @ Rank 4

  1. #91
    Shadowlander Malyck's Avatar
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    Thanks for sharing this Taugrim. I am much more effective in WF at R3 with this build then I was with my Ward/Sent/Temp build. One reason may be that I leveled exclusively with Duracell, so I am pretty familiar with Just/Sham. This build gives me much greater survivability and mana management, I really enjoy the versatility. I am also a fan of the melee playstyle vs. the true caster playstyle, so it is a more comfortable fit for me.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kronos v View Post
    If you are comfortable running randomly around the map for extended periods of the battle, or bouncing along the ground waving your bushy tail, then your build is looking good...

  2. #92
    Sword of Telara taugrim's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hospitals View Post
    Wow, really intelligently thought out spec. Tried tinkering w/ warden and justicar but gave up ha. The worst part is that most people will write this off because it sounds like it's not viable.

    Favorite part of the build is that it's not just weak aoe heals, DoL can crit for 1.5k in r3 gear and top everyone off easily, plus mana is only partially an issue bc of ageless ice and purpose. Amazing alternative to cookie cutter builds, great job
    Not quite getting what you mean by tinkering with Warden and Justicar. Do you mean with this spec or before this spec?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kombatmedic View Post
    just wanted to say thank you for posting this spec. I use it and love it
    You're welcome!

    Quote Originally Posted by Malyck View Post
    Thanks for sharing this Taugrim. I am much more effective in WF at R3 with this build then I was with my Ward/Sent/Temp build. One reason may be that I leveled exclusively with Duracell, so I am pretty familiar with Just/Sham. This build gives me much greater survivability and mana management, I really enjoy the versatility. I am also a fan of the melee playstyle vs. the true caster playstyle, so it is a more comfortable fit for me.
    Yes, players used to MDPS playstyle (circle strafing, melee strafing) or kiting RDPS should feel at home with M*A*S*H. My spec isn't a fit for people who don't like to move in PVP, given that one of M*A*S*H's biggest strengths is the high mobility.

    From a PM:
    Hi Taugrim,

    I'm using your build and I love it. I have equipment concerns, the stat priority confuses me but I think as I understand its
    Valor, Endurance, Int, Crit, Wis, Spell Power

    or I'm mistaking your > and = signs
    Correct.

    I have all purple equip, rank 2 and 5 equip,
    I do have 36 focus and 56 hit
    You don't need Focus and Hit. Justicar and Shaman convert Focus to Hit.

    As I wrote on my Guide, AFAIK you need 5% Focus in PVP to not get any misses (melee attacks) or resists (spell attacks).

    What are you getting the additional +20 Hit from?

    I specifically wonder what I should use in my trinket slot I have a +30end with 1250 absorbsion that lasts 30sec castable every 1.5min
    World PVP faction trinket.
    Taugrim
    50 R8 Cleric @ Dayblind (Guardian) | 50 Warrior @ Harrow (Defiant)
    Twitter: @taugrim | Blog: taugrim.com
    Guides: M*A*S*H Melee Healer Cleric PVP | Riftblade Warrior PVP | Strafing / Keybindings

  3. #93
    Telaran Gildartz's Avatar
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    I can attest to the effectiveness of this build. It's always nice seeing Taugrim in a warfront. This build is obviously not for everyone (I'm still a caster healer, despite enjoying kiting classes in other MMO's), but it is very effective against aoe-favored maps like scion, BG, escalation (though i'd like to see it in action in Codex too). It's able to keep my squishy cabby ***** up, and alongside a strong single target healer, makes for a very hard to kill team.
    Gorz - Cleric - Esti Efiu

  4. #94
    Soulwalker
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    Oh btw, I think off gcd reactives should be placed at the bottom of your macros so ur firing them off during ur gcds

  5. #95
    Telaran mexecutioner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Suplex View Post
    I'm 1 bar from rank 5 but you have a few hundred more valor than I (if I saw that correctly as 840?) I have every armor piece from rank 3 and 4 and the unseen +valor trinket. Where did you get so much valor?

    I don't have any enchants and my unseen rep is only at decorated...is this where I'm missing out?


    I enjoyed the video. I just can't get the hang of melee healing. It really just doesn't fit for me for some reason. I've only ever played dps classes in WoW but I'm loving the healing on this cleric (until I meet anyone r6 or higher)
    LOL im still in rank 2 (halfway to rank 30 and my valor is at 891

  6. #96
    Telaran
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    Default ---- ?? ----

    Quote Originally Posted by Lumunes View Post
    Oh btw, I think off gcd reactives should be placed at the bottom of your macros so ur firing them off during ur gcds
    Are you referring to Jolt, Fated Blow, and Glory of the Chosen? If you are, there is extremely good reason to have them 1st in the Macro list. Their individual cool downs.

    B 4 you start a pvp encounter u usually dont have jolt proc'd. So you click the macro, it will go to Lightning hammer or whatever was next that could be cast, skipping jolt.

    BAM CRIT!!!

    Jolt procs. You dont want to have to cast lightning hammer, or any other spell b 4 you cast jolt. You want to put jolt on CD asap, your dps goes up by casting spells. Hope this is explains having it first.

  7. #97
    Sword of Telara taugrim's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mexecutioner View Post
    LOL im still in rank 2 (halfway to rank 30 and my valor is at 891
    He posted pre-Valor normalization.

    Quote Originally Posted by beemoved View Post
    Are you referring to Jolt, Fated Blow, and Glory of the Chosen? If you are, there is extremely good reason to have them 1st in the Macro list. Their individual cool downs.

    B 4 you start a pvp encounter u usually dont have jolt proc'd. So you click the macro, it will go to Lightning hammer or whatever was next that could be cast, skipping jolt.

    BAM CRIT!!!

    Jolt procs. You dont want to have to cast lightning hammer, or any other spell b 4 you cast jolt. You want to put jolt on CD asap, your dps goes up by casting spells. Hope this is explains having it first.
    From what I heard, there were some parses done by players parsing in PVE or against the practice dummy that showed that putting off-GCDs at the bottom was a DPS increase. Or something like that. I searched a bit but couldn't find any threads. I get the logic, the idea is to use the GCD as soon as it's available.

    That said, I have the same philosophy as you - my priority is getting the off-GCD abilities fired as soon as possible, because they tend to have excellent effect (e.g. Jolt, Glory of the Chosen, Fated Blow), and you never know when you are going to get CC'd/punted/etc.
    Taugrim
    50 R8 Cleric @ Dayblind (Guardian) | 50 Warrior @ Harrow (Defiant)
    Twitter: @taugrim | Blog: taugrim.com
    Guides: M*A*S*H Melee Healer Cleric PVP | Riftblade Warrior PVP | Strafing / Keybindings

  8. #98
    Shadowlander
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    I've been a melee cleric most of this game.

    I don't know how this spec could be more fun in PvP than the spec I use: 31 shm / 12 inq / 23 just. Potentially could sub in 12 warden for the 12 inq, if u like warden.

    Here are my reasons.

    1. As a melee cleric, if you want the chance to kill anything, you need 31 shm. Killing stuff in PvP is fun, while still healing of course. This is the biggest reason I don't like the spec. If you want to be a healer, play a healer spec. If you want to be a dps/healer that kills stuff in melee, you need 31 shm.
    2. Main source of heals in PvP as melee cleric comes from DoL crits. Inq and shm both boost crit by 20% each. Thus, your healing performance should be higher, while still being able to kill something every 2 mins. IMO warden is useless as a melee justicar cleric.
    3. You have charge. Nothing is more frustrating than being melee, and not being able to get to melee. Charge solves that nicely. Charge also lets you escape battles from melee, by charging back to the war / rogue on your back line.
    4. 12 inq has fear ward. In melee, you are much closer to spam fears from wars / cleric. See #3. In your spec, if you get feared, you have no way to get back to the target (no charge).
    5. Dmg mitigation is the same, except your heal crits will do more with +40% crit boost.
    6. Inq has purge. Its always nice to be able to remove 2 buffs from a target every 10 secs or so. Some combos rely on buffs. If you are ever in a standoff, purge becomes the win.
    7. Inq has self buff +health +armor. Nice to have that extra kicker/edge in PvP.

    Try my spec, and let me know if you have more fun.

    Cab still trumps melee clerics in PvP. Good cabs hang out on the back line, and have a silience resist. Doesnt really matter if a cab is silenced for 2 secs anyhow, that just gives the decays time to get to 3, and then BAM here comes the pain again.

    -Pwnan

  9. #99
    Sword of Telara taugrim's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pwnan View Post
    I've been a melee cleric most of this game.

    I don't know how this spec could be more fun in PvP than the spec I use: 31 shm / 12 inq / 23 just. Potentially could sub in 12 warden for the 12 inq, if u like warden.
    Yes, that's the classic MDPS build for Cleric PVP.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pwnan View Post
    If you want to be a healer, play a healer spec. If you want to be a dps/healer that kills stuff in melee, you need 31 shm.
    This is a healing spec.

    But don't take my word for it. Read what the people who have tried the spec have said in this thread. They have reported strong results in terms of healing, and players at R6+ have also said it has solid DPS / killing power.

    EDIT: I can tell from reading your points that you didn't look at what the M*A*S*H spec provides, or perhaps you glossed over it very superficially (to put it mildly). More on that later.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pwnan View Post
    2. Main source of heals in PvP as melee cleric comes from DoL crits. Inq and shm both boost crit by 20% each. Thus, your healing performance should be higher, while still being able to kill something every 2 mins.
    Yes, Inq gives a 20% boost to Crit heal amounts.

    However, with M*A*S*H, Warden gives a flat +15% bonus to all Doctrine (and Reprieve) healing through Fluidity.

    From a healing perspective (since you're looking at it that way), would you rather have +20% boost to Crit amounts only or +15% to all Doctrine heals? The latter is more attractive IMO, because you only lose 5% on Crits but gain 15% on everything else.

    On top of that, to get the burst DPS from Shaman you have to use Phys-damage abilities, and that means you'll be generating fewer Convictions over time, which means fewer resources for Doctrine healing.

    As I wrote in my Guide, that is the #1 reason M*A*S*H skips the Crushing Blow / Massive Blow talents and focuses most GCDs on Life-based attacks. Conviction generation is our healing life blood.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pwnan View Post
    IMO warden is useless as a melee justicar cleric.
    I strongly disagree. Look at what 12 points in Warden gives you:

    1. A cleanse.

    Your spec has no defense against getting mana drained by Doms. M*A*S*H can interrupt Mana Wrench with Interdict and remove Traitorous Influence.

    Having PVP'd with and without cleanse as a Cleric, it is one thing I can't do without. Clerics are too vulnerable without it. There are too many mechanics-altering debuffs that are worth spending a GCD to remove (e.g. Anathema).

    2. Healing Flood, which is a great tool in PVP, especially for times when you can't heal due to CC or your friendlies are out of LoS and therefore won't be healed via DoL

    3. A knockback and root breaker, which are awesome when kiting melees or punting people into mobs. Muhahahaha.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pwnan View Post
    3. You have charge. Nothing is more frustrating than being melee, and not being able to get to melee. Charge solves that nicely. Charge also lets you escape battles from melee, by charging back to the war / rogue on your back line.
    I agree, which is part of the reason I designed M*A*S*H to have Battle Charge, on top of other movement-related abilities such as Humility and Dissolution.

    The very first point under the Strengths of M*A*S*H in my Guide:
    1. Terrific mobility. Battle Charge (26-pt Shaman ability) and Dissolution (11-pt Warden ability) remove all movement-impairing effects, and the vast majority of GCD abilities are instant-cast
    Quote Originally Posted by Pwnan View Post
    4. 12 inq has fear ward. In melee, you are much closer to spam fears from wars / cleric. See #3. In your spec, if you get feared, you have no way to get back to the target (no charge).
    Agree Fear Ward is useful.

    Again, M*A*S*H has Battle Charge.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pwnan View Post
    5. Dmg mitigation is the same, except your heal crits will do more with +40% crit boost.
    Incorrect. Both specs get the +20% boost to Crit amount in Shaman.

    I already addressed the Inq +20% crit magnitude vs +15% on instant-cast heals above.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pwnan View Post
    6. Inq has purge. Its always nice to be able to remove 2 buffs from a target every 10 secs or so. Some combos rely on buffs. If you are ever in a standoff, purge becomes the win.
    7. Inq has self buff +health +armor. Nice to have that extra kicker/edge in PvP.
    Yes, Inq offers some nice tools.

    Obviously Inq provides offensive capability, but from a utility and healer perspective IMO:
    12 points in Warden > 12 points in Inq

    At any rate, before evaluating a spec, IMO one should actually look at the spec to understand its capabilities and mechanics .
    Last edited by taugrim; 09-14-2011 at 09:46 AM.
    Taugrim
    50 R8 Cleric @ Dayblind (Guardian) | 50 Warrior @ Harrow (Defiant)
    Twitter: @taugrim | Blog: taugrim.com
    Guides: M*A*S*H Melee Healer Cleric PVP | Riftblade Warrior PVP | Strafing / Keybindings

  10. #100
    Shadowlander
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    Well, i'm already turned off to it, if you cant kill anything in melee.

    If I were to play a focused melee / healer, I would definitely go with sent over warden...

    using your logic...

    I would go with 26 shm / 20 sent / 20 just

    You get the 20% crit boost
    You get the flat 10% healing boost to AOE heals
    You get 5% spell power
    You get healing breath
    You get protect the flock
    You get HC (40% dmg reduction)
    You get cleanses if you are so worried about DOMs (lol)

    Play a win spec. If I see you in the WF Id mop your spec up in dps and healing...

  11. #101
    Shadowlander
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pwnan View Post
    Well, i'm already turned off to it, if you cant kill anything in melee.

    If I were to play a focused melee / healer, I would definitely go with sent over warden...

    using your logic...

    I would go with 26 shm / 20 sent / 20 just

    You get the 20% crit boost
    You get the flat 10% healing boost to AOE heals
    You get 5% spell power
    You get healing breath
    You get protect the flock
    You get HC (40% dmg reduction)
    You get cleanses if you are so worried about DOMs (lol)

    Play a win spec. If I see you in the WF Id mop your spec up in dps and healing...
    Forgot to mention. Sentinel gives you light based abilities for your convictions.

  12. #102
    Telaran
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    Default ---Just have to accept someone being different---

    One thing you have to understand about this build, is that its, well...different. I pvp, over and over and over with various ranged/healing/melee builds on my cleric. I parse every fight, compile statistics on EACH fight and judge accordingly what works best.

    This has healed over 1500 hps depending on DoL crits, and of course the damage my team is taking around me. I can do that for at least 10 minutes with out worry of mana, (YES a Dom was REEEEALLY tryin to mana drain me, Ty Cleanse).

    I have not met a warrior, rogue, that i could not own 1v1. Test shard or live. Now, other clerics or mages, Nope, if they have self heals, this dps is to weak to own them, but they DEF do not own this build.

    I have had on many many occasions 4...6....8 people beating on me with no success in killing me, all the while, i'm spamming Vengeful Justice in they're faces....note Jolt procs all the time when i'm up vs 2+ people. The time it take the other team to realize they really just can't kill me, i've spammed numerous DoL's, healing floods, healing spray's. The durability of this specific build nets you time in a warfront to assess a situation. I put out consistent 200-450 dps. To me, thats plenty high enough to pull out 4-10 kb's. Remember my hits proc my grater essence's that protect and heal my group. NOTHING this character does is wasted. DoL, brings 20% at life people back to full health, Healing flood keeps them topped off, in 12 seconds my healing flood heals for 1.4k. That is a very strong heal. In codex, b4 the huge zerg to the dex flag, when everyone is at 100% spam that 2, 3x's and everyone in your raid has healing flood for the next 12 seconds depending on target lottery.
    Last edited by beemoved; 09-14-2011 at 02:00 PM.

  13. #103
    Soulwalker Aiyra's Avatar
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    I'm just wondering.. how does this spec fare against focused pain trains? I would think that Single Target spike healing would be this spec's weakness. Also, can this spec outlast a warrior train on yourself? (I seem to get the magical 1 all the time).

    I tried this spec but I couldn't really play it effectively. More often than not I'm one of the only few healers in my WF and this spec just doesnt keep up with the heals. (killing people is fun though i admit =) )
    Aiyra - Level 50 Cleric - Dayblind
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  14. #104
    Sword of Telara taugrim's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aiyra View Post
    how does this spec fare against focused pain trains? I would think that Single Target spike healing would be this spec's weakness. Also, can this spec outlast a warrior train on yourself? (I seem to get the magical 1 all the time).
    I can usually kite multiple melees on me, depending on how strong they are. The main thing with M*A*S*H is to remember the extent of gap control you have on MDPS. So I typically:
    - punt 1 MDPS with Crushing Wave
    - snare another MDPS with Humility
    - kite, using Dissolution and Battle Charge to create separation

    That usually buys me enough time to get out of trouble, or to either kite the MDPS to the point where they overextend and die trying to get to me (happens all the time in Escalation WFS), or they give up and pick a more stationary target.

    E.g. here's a brief clip where I punt one Warrior off me, kite the other while snaring with Humility, and maintain a gap as much as possible:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J8IAFHeE3us#t=1m06s

    Here's a clip from the same video where me + a Mage hold Scope for a minute, starting with 2v3 and getting all the way up to 2v7:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J8IAFHeE3us#t=3m08s

    Just remember: there is no reason to stand in place with M*A*S*H and facetank multiple MDPS trying to kill you. When I play a MDPS, healers make my job 10x easier when they just sit in one place while I beat on them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aiyra View Post
    I would think that Single Target spike healing would be this spec's weakness.
    Yes, it is a weakness. This is a strong AOE healing but the single-target healing is not that strong, aside from the oh-crap RM heal Reprieve and Healing Current + Deluge.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aiyra View Post
    More often than not I'm one of the only few healers in my WF and this spec just doesnt keep up with the heals.
    Warfront outcomes are dictated by a lot of factors, including the relative strengths of the sides, etc. That said, I have carried healing in warfronts for my side, so it's certainly doable. Other folks have said as much as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aiyra View Post
    I tried this spec but I couldn't really play it effectively.
    The extent to which a player is effective with this spec depends on a couple things:
    • Ability to manage Conviction-building with Conviction-spending
    • Ability to pre-kite and kite to stay alive as much as possible
    By pre-kite I mean anticipating a bad situation and taking the actions necessary to minimize the impact to you.

    As other people who have tried the spec have said on this thread, the playstyle is very different from a traditional Cleric spec. It takes a while to adapt to, and it won't be a fit for everyone.
    Last edited by taugrim; 09-14-2011 at 05:29 PM.
    Taugrim
    50 R8 Cleric @ Dayblind (Guardian) | 50 Warrior @ Harrow (Defiant)
    Twitter: @taugrim | Blog: taugrim.com
    Guides: M*A*S*H Melee Healer Cleric PVP | Riftblade Warrior PVP | Strafing / Keybindings

  15. #105
    Telaran
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    Default ---its all situational---

    Lets say were in black garden, i'm the only cleric, and there is 4 rogues, 4 war's and me. I do not think necessarily that this build would be enough to keep everyone alive....let alone the bearer of the fang, I would go full pvp heals.

    Now change it up, there is 2 clerics, a chloro, the rest are whatever....you bet, i would go with this build in a heart beat.

    1. You are hard to kill.
    2. Your heals, when you cast them most times are not wasted.
    3. its just plain ol fun to not insta-die in a warfront, even when taking focused fire

    This build is a Lot of fun at rank 8 pvp. As my sp 1.5k+, sc .6k...my heals hit for a lot, so i would say, its necessary for high stats for this build to be the ONLY healing availble in a warfront.

    Every guildie I run wf's with, KNOW this build, and how I play it to be a BEAST of a player in a war front. Through their feedback, None of them would rather me go to say, a Sent/ward/temp, Ward/temp, Sent/temp build. I have done wf's after wf's testing this, enjoying the up's and down's. The only qq's i ever get nowadays, is when ppl see the little shield icon above my head and think i'm not going to heal them....the only reason you WOULDN'T get a heal from me, is if your either, LOS broken, or just plain not near me.

    I am a Min/Max Player, and Any advantage that i can enable in my character, either to help my team, or to hinder the opposition, i'm all for.

    Strafing is one of this builds best assets, the higher your Spell power, the higher your Dodge goes, Parry gets maxed out at 20%....If you correctly face your target, your parry's disable 1/5 of the dps coming your way from any melee class, Dodge's work no matter which way your facing. I can't tell you, under focused pain trains, how many dodge's and parry's I see. To think, this specific function took what a 50% nerf? I could only imagine how it was before. As i've said before in regard to this build, it is 1 tool. You can sharpen your tools off the battle field, you can carry all the tools you have in the battle field with you, but how you use them is whats most important, not that you just have them.
    Last edited by beemoved; 09-14-2011 at 05:31 PM.

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