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Thread: [Video] M*A*S*H Justicar/Shaman/Warden PVP @ Rank 4

  1. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Miraodus View Post
    Also, as Inferi mentioned - a Justicar with R1/2 gear will have the same, if not higher, mitigation as most R7/8s. 48% mitigation at R2 is very nice!
    I checked my R2 cleric this morning, who now has something like 964 valor (more than my R8 warrior!) and around 38.6% mitigation from valor. With talents, that's a whopping 56.6% damage reduction against everything that cannot be dispelled.

    I really appreciate this spec, as I generally hate standing in the back "and I heal and I heal and I heal" specs. This is a fun way to heal though.
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  2. #47
    Rift Disciple Zyphxion's Avatar
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    Looking at it, right off the bat I'd take a point from Lust for Blood and put it into Vengeance of the Frozen Earth, this IS PvP after all, that 10% damage is less useful than a 50% snare, especially when hitting a group with Even Justice.

  3. #48
    Sword of Telara taugrim's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphxion View Post
    Looking at it, right off the bat I'd take a point from Lust for Blood and put it into Vengeance of the Frozen Earth, this IS PvP after all, that 10% damage is less useful than a 50% snare, especially when hitting a group with Even Justice.
    TLDR: I totally disagree.

    A lot of people make the same assumption as you without considering the DR mechanics, which were introduced in 1.2 and iterated on in 1.3. In PVP, you have to be selective when you snare a target, or you will allow them to run willy-nilly with DR immunity which is the opposite of what you are intending to accomplish.

    Look at the mechanics, considering that in PVP (AFAIK) CC durations for the first non-DR application are halved:
    - Humility: 50% movement debuff for 15 seconds, which means 7.5 seconds in PVP
    - VotFE: 50% movement debuff for 6 seconds, which means 3 seconds in PVP

    The issue with VotFE is that you are going to snare your opponent for a short duration (3 seconds) and start the immunity timer, so the next movement-impairing effect is going to last half as long (in this case, 1.5 seconds). So you are effectively only snaring your target for 4.5 seconds out of the 15-second DR window. That sucks.

    Now look at Humility. The first and second application last 7.5 and 3.75 seconds respectively (these may be rounded down, not sure), or 11.25 seconds total (or 10 rounded down), which is basically most of the 15-second DR window.

    Do you want to snare your target for 4.5 or 11.25 seconds out of 15? That's the question.

    Obviously Humility takes a GCD whereas VotFE procs off a melee attack, but in a lot of situations when you are snaring them, your main concern is limiting their movement (e.g. EFC trying to get away) or making sure they don't get to you (e.g. Warrior beating on you).

    ---------------------

    On a conceptually similar note, this is why I don't spend the 2 points to get the stun for Sovereignty. The stun duration is too low, and all I might be doing is preventing someone else's much-longer duration control CC from taking its full effect.
    Last edited by taugrim; 09-01-2011 at 02:29 PM.
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  4. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by taugrim View Post
    Obviously Humility takes a GCD whereas VotFE procs off a melee attack, but in a lot of situations when you are snaring them, your main concern is limiting their movement (e.g. EFC trying to get away) or making sure they don't get to you (e.g. Warrior beating on you).
    Actually Humility does NOT trigger a GCD. Makes me freakin' jealous actually.
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  5. #50
    Rift Disciple Zyphxion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SetisDagre View Post
    Actually Humility does NOT trigger a GCD. Makes me freakin' jealous actually.
    Oh, well then carry on

  6. #51
    Sword of Telara taugrim's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SetisDagre View Post
    Actually Humility does NOT trigger a GCD. Makes me freakin' jealous actually.
    Humility is even better than I thought ^^.

    I love that ability, it's been so clutch in warfronts.
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  7. #52
    Plane Walker InferiOmega's Avatar
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    Yah every time I'm that high in Justicar for any reason I find room in the build for Humility, no exceptions. It's proven itself so many times.

  8. #53
    Plane Walker InferiOmega's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SetisDagre View Post
    I checked my R2 cleric this morning, who now has something like 964 valor (more than my R8 warrior!) and around 38.6% mitigation from valor. With talents, that's a whopping 56.6% damage reduction against everything that cannot be dispelled.

    I really appreciate this spec, as I generally hate standing in the back "and I heal and I heal and I heal" specs. This is a fun way to heal though.
    Woulda edited this into the last one but edit window and all that.

    Anywho, yah I made a Senticar/Templar variant that breaks 65% mitigation (And higher than that on physical) with all my buffs up, and could probably become nigh impervious during Covenant should I choose to burn it on myself. Scary stuff.

  9. #54
    Era
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    Quote Originally Posted by InferiOmega View Post
    Woulda edited this into the last one but edit window and all that.

    Anywho, yah I made a Senticar/Templar variant that breaks 65% mitigation (And higher than that on physical) with all my buffs up, and could probably become nigh impervious during Covenant should I choose to burn it on myself. Scary stuff.
    Well, kind of...it would break ~80% total mitigation, which is still really nice (considering a certain soul gets a 70% damage reduction spell *cough*).
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  10. #55
    Sword of Telara taugrim's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Era View Post
    Well, kind of...it would break ~80% total mitigation, which is still really nice (considering a certain soul gets a 70% damage reduction spell *cough*).
    Speaking of which, does anyone know if there is a cap on PVP mitigation?

    With the Valor normalization, I'm at ~42% mitigation from Valor, plus another 18% from M*A*S*H.
    Taugrim
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  11. #56
    RIFT Guide Writer usman's Avatar
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    I've played with upto 1200 valor, 15% justicar and reinforce + protect the flock. They all work, and don't cap.

    But i gave up on the templar soul and play 20/20/26 sent/just/warden.

    I like overflow alot, SS stack, HC, TtL, PtF, specced tidal surge, curative waters.

    I can see that battlecharge is a very useful skill, and i'm sure the playstyle of this build is effective and fun. But for myself the survivability would be too low, and my ability to keep alive a focused target would also be too low.

    I tend draw alot of attention and generally function as a pvp tank and I need the build I use to stay up under pressure whilst also healing those around me via DoL, Ripple, healing flood. A 4xSS stack with tidal surge on your group whilst kiting with DoL and HC, TtL HI, curative waters lets me do the things that I do. Your spec would not, but I might try it out as a change is as good as a rest and it does look fun
    Ambi - Cleric - Apotheosys.


  12. #57
    Sword of Telara taugrim's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by usman View Post
    I can see that battlecharge is a very useful skill, and i'm sure the playstyle of this build is effective and fun. But for myself the survivability would be too low
    The survivability is very good if you are a solid kiter, even moreso now that Valor has been normalized. A lot of Clerics are used to standing in one spot and casting heals. That isn't how M*A*S*H is designed to be played.

    Quote Originally Posted by usman View Post
    my ability to keep alive a focused target would also be too low.
    M*A*S*H has the cast-time abilities from Warden such as Healing Current and Deluge, but it lacks the single-target emergency burst from Sentinel of for example Touch the Light + Healing Invocation. So your point is legit.

    In some situations, I use the movement CC's provided by M*A*S*H to keep opponents (especially MDPS) off a friendly. E.g. Humility + Battle Chage is powerful for covering a running FC in Whitefall Steppes - as well as the insta-cast abilities to punt or dismount would-be pursuers - as you help the FC gap opponents.

    Quote Originally Posted by usman View Post
    but I might try it out as a change is as good as a rest and it does look fun
    Just make sure you adjust your playstyle to the mechanics, as this poster said, because M*A*S*H is very different from what you're used to.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jincks View Post
    Honestly. Before anyone knocks this spec, read this guys guide on it, then when you feel you have a comfortable grasp on how this spec works, you have the macros installed, and you can take your mind away from what a traditional cleric is, go out and run this spec.
    Last edited by taugrim; 09-02-2011 at 06:20 AM.
    Taugrim
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    Twitter: @taugrim | Blog: taugrim.com
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  13. #58
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    GREAT guide! thank you!

    I'm leveling up a new cleric - and I'm gonna run shamicar all the way to 50 to learn the spec properly.

    im lvl 16 atm. what point should i stop the justicar and go more in the shammy tree? should i even out the points as i lvl up, or get to a certain point first?

    allso I'm taking purifier as healer soul for the shield - just until i can get higher in it.

    thanks again

  14. #59
    Soulwalker
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    Default Curious

    Do you think the two points in warden (you stated you use them to buff your HoT's) would be better spent in the Justicar tree for Supremacy (2 sec stun)? I don't know how much extra healing you may need with this spec, but I have always been more towards control. What do you think?
    Last edited by Monopolio; 09-03-2011 at 02:26 AM.

  15. #60
    Sword of Telara taugrim's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SetisDagre View Post
    That's close to what I'm doing, except I do Vengeance before Courage and Heart buffs. Since my point is not to do damage, and the actual damage add is pretty minimal anyway it's the first thing I want to go. I also do Reparation and then Salvation last (dead healers do no healing).
    Agree.

    I moved Vengeance up per your and

    My updated buff order is now:
    1. Cavalier
    2. Mien of Honor
    3. Vengeance of the Winter Storm
    4. Heart of the Fire Mountain / Frozen Sea
    5. Courage of the Eagle / Jaguar
    6. Salvation
    7. Reparation
    Thanks for all the feedback Miraodus and Setis.

    Quote Originally Posted by Karuna View Post
    A view from the lowbie pvp front:

    I just swapped to this spec on a level 19 cleric that I plan on leveling entirely through WF's, Rifts, and Dungeons. At very first blush, I'm very impressed with the concept and the play style. Last night I ran 3 Black Gardens, and was top in heals and time carrying the fang each time. DPS was somewhere inthe middle of the pack: not the best, but certainly not the worst. Granted, that's only 3 runs worth of observation, but it seemed a dramatic improvement
    Your experience aligns with what I experienced as well as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by xgalox View Post
    GREAT guide! thank you!

    I'm leveling up a new cleric - and I'm gonna run shamicar all the way to 50 to learn the spec properly.

    im lvl 16 atm. what point should i stop the justicar and go more in the shammy tree? should i even out the points as i lvl up, or get to a certain point first?
    During the leveling process, here were the specs I used, and videos explaining the mechanics, playstyle, and macros...

    10-19: Just/Sham/Warden (Patch 1.3):
    http://taugrim.com/2011/06/05/rift-c...o-to-justicar/

    20-29: Sham/Just/Warden (Patch 1.3):
    http://taugrim.com/2011/06/11/rift-c...n-justicar-21/

    30-39: Just/Sham/Warden (Patch 1.3):
    http://taugrim.com/2011/08/01/rift-c...car-shaman-35/

    40-49: Just/Sham/Warden (Patch 1.4):
    http://taugrim.com/2011/08/08/rift-c...car-shaman-41/

    Along the way, I also tried Just/Sham/Sent to get Healing Breath, Life's Vengeance, Banish, and Healing Grace. You can swap Warden or Sent while leveling, because at < 12 points Sentinel is better for healing than Warden, but I've found at 50 for M*A*S*H that:
    12-14 point investment in Warden > 12-14 in Sentinel
    YMMV.

    Keep in mind that I leveled with M*A*S*H, but I didn't know for each new bracket whether the concept would still be viable. The biggest adjustments for me were 30-39 (felt much squishier so had to prioritize Just over Sham), 40-49 (because of the nerf to insta-cast healing in 1.4), and 50 (low Valor, had to figure out how to still viably heal while being fairly squishy).

    But I am pleased to have found that @ 50, even before the Valor normalization, M*A*S*H was viable and effective at R2-R4, in terms of putting out very competitive healing numbers. I still get outhealed by skilled R6-R8's but that's to be expected because of the huge gear advantage they enjoy over my mid-Rank Cleric.

    Quote Originally Posted by Monopolio View Post
    Do you think the two points in warden (you stated you use them to buff your HoT's) would be better spent in the Justicar tree for Supremacy (2 sec stun)? I don't know how much extra healing you may need with this spec, but I have always been more towards control. What do you think?
    Depends how you plan to use Sovereignty.

    As I discuss in my 1st level 50 video, I fire Sov as one of my first 2 GCDs as soon as enemies are in range, because I'm using it as a Conviction generator. I'm not as concerned with the potential 2-second stun - I want to fire Sov as a Life-based ranged attack whenever it's off CD.

    The stun would have been useful pre-1.2, when CC DR was introduced.

    Because of CC DR, the last thing I want to do is hit a target and start their CC DR, which would cut the next CC applied to them in half, e.g. a friendly's Silence or fear bomb.
    Last edited by taugrim; 09-03-2011 at 08:14 AM.
    Taugrim
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    Twitter: @taugrim | Blog: taugrim.com
    Guides: M*A*S*H Melee Healer Cleric PVP | Riftblade Warrior PVP | Strafing / Keybindings

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